recon0321 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 So I want to try and figure out how the chain of command works... Scout Battle brother Sergeant Co veteran ( command squad)? Veteran sergeant Deathwing or ravenwing? Maybe depends on marines specialty Deathwing knights or black knights Co master Supreme grand master? So how Manu veteran sergeants are in a co and how many squads are led by them rathe then a sergeant. Same with vet sergeant scouts are they marines that go back to train scouts and a scout sgt is still a scout just in training that showed leadership? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Swap Deathwing with vet sarge. The recent book Ravenwing has the sargent as being part of the inner circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrox Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I'd say your list is pretty close, with the Veteran Sergeant and Deathwing/Ravenwing places possibly interchangeable I think after Company Master, I'd add Master of Deathwing/Ravenwing before Supreme Grand Master Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recon0321 Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 I would like to think that sergeants don't know about the fallen where as vet sergeants do...hence the robes...but not every squad could be led by a vet sergeant..fluff wise, I am just trying to make a balanced force...I am much more into fluff when building my armies then competition.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 My take is that there is an ideal chain of progression/promotion, and there are impromptu promotions that send someone to the Deathwing (as seen in "Ravenwing", for instance). The ideal goes like this: 1. Scout 2. Devastator 3. Assault Marine 4. Full battle-brother; this might take you to a Battle Company or a Reserve Company 5. Ravenwing - Land Speeder pilot 6. Ravenwing - Biker 7. Ravenwing Black Knight 8. Ravenwing Huntmaster (depends on how many of them there are) 9. Deathwing Terminator 10. Deathwing Terminator Sergeant 11. Deathwing Champion 12. Deathwing Knight 13. Deathwing Knight-Master 14. Company Master 15. Grand Master 16. Supreme Grand Master Having attained full battle-brother status, but before being selected for the Ravenwing, a Dark Angel can be selected for Chaplaincy (and thereafter he has to be promoted through the Interrogator-Chaplains). A battle-brother who is not selected for the Ravenwing can go on to become a Company Veteran and a Veteran Sergeant. At that point, his progression in the ranks ends. One can also become a Sergeant before joining the Ravenwing. One can become a Ravenwing Sergeant before becoming a Black Knight. A member of the Ravenwing not selected to become a Black Knight can advance as high as Ravenwing Veteran Sergeant. A battle-brother who has been accepted in the Deathwing can subsequently be placed by the Inner Circle to any number of positions, to include being part of a Company Command Squad, serving as a Veteran Sergeant, holding a special position or office such as standard-bearer, Apothecary, Black Knight, Huntmaster, etc. A battle-brother who has advanced to the Deathwing Knights, though, has been noted for greatness within the Chapter, and it is unlikely that their progression will be lateral or otherwise taking him back to the "lower ranks". That's all "ideal", of course, and much of my ranking is based on a mix of common sense and characteristics that are earned in the game via progression - such as extra attacks, or higher Weapon Skill and Leadership traits. So, for instance, the Deathwing Champion has a higher WS than a Deathwing Terminator Sergeant, so he should be higher up the progression chain. The "not ideal", on the other hand, would involve anyone who accidentally found out about the Fallen, etc. Such an individual would probably be put through a rigorous examination (Interrogator-Chaplains, Librarians, etc.) to see if he could be trusted with the secrets/to keep his memory and/or life. Assuming he passes, he would probably be given quite an extensive apprenticeship/special training period to bring him up to Deathwing standard. If he doesn't impress his superiors, I suppose he could still always be mind-scrubbed (or worse). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haranin Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 We know that some brothers are selected for the Ravenwing, and some pass direct to the Deathwing without being Ravenwing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Yup, hence my "ideal" and "impromptu" routes. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
recon0321 Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 Great point...it seems very well thought out...but could we agree that veteran scout sergeants are battle brother assigned to the 10th and the sergeant is just another scout earmarked for early promotion? And vet sergeants are few and far between in a company? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grafius Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I kind of seeing it go somewhat like this. 1. Scout 2. Reserve company Battle Brother(including devs) Then they branch off into a specialisation. 3. Battle Company Battle Brother (including devs) 3. Reserve Company Assault Squad 4 .Company Vet 4. Battle Company Assault Squad 5. Sergeant 5. Sergeant 6. Veteran Sergeant 6. Veteran Sergeant 7. Deathwing 7. Ravenwing 8. Deathwing Sergeant 8. Ravenwing Sergeant 9. Deathwing Knight 9. Ravenwing Veteran Sergeant 10. Knight Master 10. Ravenwing Black Knight 11. Company Master 11. Huntmaster 12. Grand Master 12. Grand Master 13. Supreme Grand Master Has a ravenwing grand master ever been Supreme Grand Master? I see the ravenwing as far too specialised to be rolled back into the 1st company once they have mastered a bike landspeeder or flyer. Keeping them separate also adds another level of trust (or lack there of) to the structure and I see the ravenwing always promoting from within. Veteran sergeants will move around from reserve to scout companies to pass on there teaching and experience. I see reserve companies as learning institutions and where you go if your career is in the toilet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skalver Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I'm sure a Ravenwing Grand Master could become Supreme Grand Master but if he did he would have to relinquish his Company Master role just like any other Company Master who got promoted to Supreme Grand Master. The background does seem to suggest that second in line for the Supreme Grand Master role at any time would be the Deathwing Grand Master. I guess if both the Deathwing and Supreme Grand Masters were killed in a single action the Ravenwing Grand Master could be next in line. Ravenwing Grand Masters however don't generally seem to last very long, the role having a pretty high rate of attrition which would make it less likely that anyone in the role would live long enough to have sufficient experience to be considered for the Supreme Grand Master position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 Great point...it seems very well thought out...but could we agree that veteran scout sergeants are battle brother assigned to the 10th and the sergeant is just another scout earmarked for early promotion? And vet sergeants are few and far between in a company?I disagree, the sergeants of scout squads should always be full battle brothers, and ones that have already passed through all three types of Marine squads. They may not be ready for the Ravenwing or Deathwing, or it may just be that their talents don't lie in that direction, but training up the new Marines seems too important a job to leave to a Scout that has been around for a while. As far as Veteran Sergeants, I see those as the guys that would possibly comprise the Company Veterans squad if they didn't have a talent for command (after all, they have the same game stats) OR they are Deathwing members reassigned to a squad for a special mission when there is little DW/RW support and it has to be done anyway. Sadly, nothing in the rules seems to allow for the DW sergeant any more (they can't get Inner Circle like DW can as a Vet Sergeant), but I still think that the option would be present for the Unforgiven. I don't think there is anything indicating that there are more or less Veteran Sergeants in a battle company. Rules-wise, the Sergeant doesn't actually seem to match up with the fluff in the Codex, where in the fluff text for the Company Vets it says that Company Vets with the talent can often achieve the rank of Sergeant (makes no Veteran distinction and the fluff for the regular Marines doesn't actually speak of Sergeants at all), while in the rules, only the Veteran Sergeant is the rules equivalent of the Company Veteran. Almost makes me feel like the "Sergeant" denotation is for those squads being led by a "Corporal" or are not a full squad and are led by their fire team leader, while the Veteran Sergeant is the true full Sergeant for any squad within a Battle or Reserve Company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 As far as Veteran Sergeants, I see those as the guys that would possibly comprise the Company Veterans squad if they didn't have a talent for command (after all, they have the same game stats) OR they are Deathwing members reassigned to a squad for a special mission when there is little DW/RW support and it has to be done anyway. Sadly, nothing in the rules seems to allow for the DW sergeant any more (they can't get Inner Circle like DW can as a Vet Sergeant), but I still think that the option would be present for the Unforgiven. I don't think there is anything indicating that there are more or less Veteran Sergeants in a battle company. While nothing in the rules make them part of the Deathwing, some of the fluff does. In the novel Ravenwing, the Veteran Sergeant that leads the 5th company element is a Deathwing member and helps council Sammuel and his command squad on the matter of a Hunt. So I don't see it too far of a stretch that some of the Veteran Sergeants in game are actually members of the Deathwing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 While nothing in the rules make them part of the Deathwing, some of the fluff does. In the novel Ravenwing, the Veteran Sergeant that leads the 5th company element is a Deathwing member and helps council Sammuel and his command squad on the matter of a Hunt. So I don't see it too far of a stretch that some of the Veteran Sergeants in game are actually members of the Deathwing.Oh definitely, that's why I was saying that they were either Company Vet equivalents or DW returnees. It would have been nice to pay some additional points for an Inner Circle upgrade or something as well (and it could extend the Inner Circle Watches type concept more as well). I know I plan on having a couple of my Veteran Sergeants painted up as full Deathwalkers (my DW equivalent). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 While nothing in the rules make them part of the Deathwing, some of the fluff does. In the novel Ravenwing, the Veteran Sergeant that leads the 5th company element is a Deathwing member and helps council Sammuel and his command squad on the matter of a Hunt. So I don't see it too far of a stretch that some of the Veteran Sergeants in game are actually members of the Deathwing.Oh definitely, that's why I was saying that they were either Company Vet equivalents or DW returnees. It would have been nice to pay some additional points for an Inner Circle upgrade or something as well (and it could extend the Inner Circle Watches type concept more as well). I know I plan on having a couple of my Veteran Sergeants painted up as full Deathwalkers (my DW equivalent). Oh man, did you say that? I totally missed it, guess it's time for this guy to get some sleep lol :P Yeah I too plan on having my Veteran Sergeants in robes. I was starting to do this in the last edition as well. Since I started playing 40k with the 3rd edition Dark Angels codex I just always assumed the Veteran Sergeants were part of the Deathwing. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 I don't think they all are part of the Deathwing, but I definitely see them needing to be used that way some times. I can also see Ravenwing members being seconded to the Scout company to act as the trainers (and to pick up new inductees). I like dispersing my robed figures though, that's why my IA is written so that the robes don't specify veterancy or knowledge. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted January 27, 2013 Share Posted January 27, 2013 the progression in DA Chapter is non linear due to the RW being a parallel career... Some marines are worthy for the RW when they are scouts and they are indicted directly into RW when they become full marines... Some other are inducted in battle companies and they the have access to the RW... Some others go to battle companies from reserve companies and then to RW... Some others go from battle companies directly to DW without passing from RW... The ones that enters into RW may be promoted to DW as well... In addiction roles like Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant are usually fullfilled in reserve and scout squads by Marines coming from Battle companies and RW, and sometimes from DW too so there is some kind of "reverse" promotion when the battle knowledge of veterans is required to train neophytes and new full fledged marines... There is also no difference between Assault, Devastators or Tactical marines in battle companies... They are all the same degree of importance but have just a different role in the battlefield... We must consider that Battle Companies marines all come from reserve companies where they recieved the same degee of training with the obvious differences due to the different roles... The main difference in battle companies are the Company Veterans but they are not really a degree cause they are not permanent squads, they are still part of their own squads and they are put together when the company needs them to fullfill a particular mission... Only The officiers (Company Master and Chaplain), the members of command squads (Apothecary, Champion and Standard Bearer) and Sergeants/Veteran Sergeants (that sometimes come from DW too) are at higher degree than the regular Marines... In RW the veterans (BK) are not drawn from regualr squadrons but they are Inner circle inside the Company... they are not organised in squadrons like the other RW marines but they are a certain number of individuals that are arranged in squads and command squads fllowing the needs of the Chapter... The BL novel about RW states that there are about 25 BK witha certain numebr of Hunts masters that can lead the BK squadrons... In RW the new inducted marines usually acts as gunners for LS and attack bikes and when they are trained enough that switch to biker/driver role... We can assume that the pilots of the flyers are more expert than other RW marines... Then a DA Marine can be finally inducted into the DW... The DW has a peculiar organisation as they are all veterans... In the DV novel there is a squad of DW supporting the 5th Company in his role of defeating the Chaos marines... In this novel the DW marines show more some kind of brotherhood between them rather than a formal chain of command... The Serggeant is not a leader they other marines follow like in the lower companies but more like a Primus inter pares... If we take a look at the DW iconografy we can se that there is no squad markings on the DW armours (this thing was already established in 2nd edition codex) so we can assume a fluid organisation with suqads built following the needs of the chapter just like company veterans in battle companies... Command squads are formed directly by marines drawn from the core of the DW company, with the exception ofc of the specialists like the apothecary and DW champion... Then there are the DWK... while in lower companies the command squads were formed by the veterans and there were the higher degree inside the company in the DW the DWK are higher than command squads too... they are the link between the DW and the Masters... The inner circle is formed by the masters (there are at least 8 of them in command of the battle, reserve and scout companies), the grand masters (two of them lead the RW and hte DW and the other ones are the personal staff of the supreme grand master), the master of the apotecharies, the master of the librarians, the master of the chaplains and the supreme grand master of the chapter (and in the case of the DA he is the supreme grand master of the entire unforgiven legion)... The DA Chapter has such a complicated chain of command that is impossible to draw a linear rank progression... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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