black knights thoughts and tactics

[tomsev]

so what does everyone think of this new unit? any tactics bought up yet?

how do i use them to their best result?

[Azrael Turnbull]

I've had a 7 games with the new codex so far, all but one of them won within three turns. The other opponent was tabled on turn 5. Could be incompetent opponents, but I like to think otherwise. :)

 

I've had mixed results from Ravenwing; sometimes they carry the game for me and sometimes they get focused. Regardless of this, they have always earned their points back so far. So this is what I do with them:

 

- I always take a group of 6. This is mainly because I only have 6, but getting any more than that is getting on the expensive side. Any less, and their efficiency drops dramatically.

 

- I always take a Ravenwing Grenade Launcher. The ability to manipulate who goes first in combat, or allow your Plasma Guns to cause Instant Death to Broadsides, Obliterator's and Ork Nobz. The best thing about this model is that the effect is 'on hit', so unlike Tau, the squad benefits from the debuff despite firing at the same time. More importantly, this single man will continue to act as a decent support for the rest of your army, even if he's the only man left in the squad! So keep him alive at all costs.

 

- Give the Sergeant a Power Weapon, or not. It really doesn't matter. Don't bother with Melta Bombs, as your Corvus Hammers will take out any tank your Rapid Firing Plasma Guns can't. You don't want to be assault a Land Raider with Ravenwing Black Knights as it's a waste of resources better spent elsewhere.

 

- Don't go all out! Ever! Despite being labelled for it in the stories and the codex, the 'speed' element is better used to bolster your front lines, NOT to run ahead of it. The enemy will happily target them and wipe them out in one turn, so they are better used well covered and as a direct response to a closing in threat. The exception to this is if you're against Tau or Imperial Guard, in which case you outflank!

 

- Make the most of your 'Skilled Rider'. The freedom of movement around terrain is priceless! It also catches your opponent completely off guard when you drive through a brick wall, Plasma 90% (if not all) of the squad/monstrous creature/tank to death, and then Corvus Hammer the hopefully debuffed remains.

 

- Use Hit & Run at the end of any enemy assault phase. This simply goes without explanation. If you put yourself in a situation where you need to use it in your own turn, you're doing something wrong.

 

- Teleport Homers are a nicety, not a necessity. You have Deathwing Terminators coming down? Do not rely on your Black Knight's being in position unless they will definitely be safe from enemy heavy weapons.

 

That's about everything from the top of my head for now. Basically, your bikes are a hit hard, but heavily focused unit. Keep them out of reach of your opponent until they can fall upon something expensive or to assist your other units in dealing with direct threats. A good example is a Tactical Squad and Devastators being approached by a Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard. You've ignored him so far since his threat rating was minimal, but now he has your complete attention. Your bikes whom have been patiently waiting so far, deep in your deployment zone, move into range and tear the monstrosity to pieces in rapid fire range. The Devastators need only chip in if the Plasma Weapons fail to finish the job.

 

Any further questions, feel free to ask. ;)

[elphilo]

I've played a few games with them. While I really like them, they have died to the man. I'm chalking that up to inexperience playing with bikers and the fact they are scary and my opponent wants them off the board ASAP.

 

I would have to agree with what Azrael Turnbull, because I have probably broken most of those rules. I tend to race them in the front so the Deathwing will have a decent position, putting them out in the open pretty much by them selves. That makes them easy targets. I also try to get the most out of the Plasma Talons, so I try to get into that 9" rapid fire range, which puts them dangerously close to units they might not want to assault. And then you think, well they were designed for melee, but they get bogged down really quickly. 

 

So what I'm going to start doing with them is keeping them at an arms distance, just peppering units with plasma shots. Do that until the unit being shot at will most likely lose an assault. Then and only then will I commit the Knights to it.

[Rizara]

I haven't used them yet but I had planned a 6 strong unit with the only upgrade being on grenade launcher. I also planned to attach me librarian on bike with a power field generator. This provides the unit with librarian psychic buffs and a constant 4+ invulnerable save. It gives them protection but I wasn't planning on having them out front but as a flanking force tasked on taking out tougher units and harassing the enemy. I also don't plan to use them without at least another unit of ravening on the board. The power weapon on the sarge feels like a downgrade compared to the Corvus hammers which hit harder and have rending.

[Cavalier73]

They're the price of 3 Tactical Marines but are only a little bit more durable, which makes them rather unwieldy. And yet they come very well equipped and with Darkshrouds and the like, there are means to improve longevity. On balance they are perhaps my favourite addition to the new Codex.

[Brother Immolator]

I want to comment only on the line: Dont assault a LR with ravenwing knights.

 

If you surround the LR and manage to blow it up remember that the terminator squad inside is forefeat. They dont have enough space to deploy anywhere.

Thats 500  points plus in a single stroke.

[Azrael Turnbull]

I haven't used them yet but I had planned a 6 strong unit with the only upgrade being on grenade launcher. I also planned to attach me librarian on bike with a power field generator. This provides the unit with librarian psychic buffs and a constant 4+ invulnerable save. It gives them protection but I wasn't planning on having them out front but as a flanking force tasked on taking out tougher units and harassing the enemy. I also don't plan to use them without at least another unit of ravening on the board. The power weapon on the sarge feels like a downgrade compared to the Corvus hammers which hit harder and have rending.

In theory, the 4+ invulnerable save will provide that extra survivability in close combat, but considering you've already got a 4+ cover save on the move, you're spending double the points for what you get for your invulnerable save. I won't knock attaching a character to the unit, though; I need to build a Librarian and Chaplain on a bike myself.

Imagine using Black Knights against Chaos with the Inner Circle special rule. *drools*

They're the price of 3 Tactical Marines but are only a little bit more durable, which makes them rather unwieldy. And yet they come very well equipped and with Darkshrouds and the like, there are means to improve longevity. On balance they are perhaps my favourite addition to the new Codex.

^^^ This!

If you have a Darkshroud and have at least 3 Ravenwing units (or simply fielding a fully fledged Ravenwing list), you'd be a fool to leave it at home. If you only have a unit of Ravenwing Black Knights, however, it is not worth the points to protect only one unit. (Lets face it, Greenwing don't need it that much and Deathwing don't need it at all. As for the price of the bikers, I would like to cross reference this with my post. Black Knights are expensive for their durability, but cheap for their damage output, so should never be given as a choice target for your opponent. I call these kind of units 'Glass Cannons'. They are equivalent with 5 man Devastator squads, Command/Veteran squads, Predators and Vindicators etc. albeit with the ability to be anywhere you need them to be. Basically, they are one of your hardest hitting units, but you need other components in your army to improve their survivability. 'Bruiser' type units, like lots of Tactical Marines, and holding your Knights back until the opportune moment is just one way to achieve this. The Darkshroud is another (and it will allow you to be a bit more reckless).

Honestly, you should only consider assaulting if you failed to wipe your target unit out with Plasma Guns (lets face it, it's charge or be charged) or to avoid heavy weaponry that you can't otherwise avoid. I'd much sooner stay in combat with Khorne Beserkers for two player turns than be left in the front flank of a Vindicator, but this should be a rare case indeed.

Other situations for assault include running low on numbers. If your squad are down to two, then assaulting is perfectly acceptable but must be done in conjunction with another unit. That Tervigon this turn, so knock of a couple of wounds with a Plasma Talon and a Tactical Squads Bolt Pistols, then (hopefully) reduce it's toughness with your Ravenwing Grenade Launcher. Get stuck in! (Again, this is a desparate scenario where your Tactical Squad can't escape combat next turn, and your bikes are too few to do anything good by themselves).

All in all, your list needs to compliment itself with components, rather than pick units that work alone. When writing a list, I try to follow the following guideline (give or take 100 points per each group to make things fit):

Glass Cannons (Points all spent on causing damage and not much else. This groups includes Typhoons, Vindicators etc.) - 2/5 total points limit.

Bruisers (Points spent equally on giving and taking damage. Tactical Marines and Terminators!) - 1/5 total points limit

Speed Freaks (units that use their speed to hit enemy lines quickly, or buff your own line where needed. Black Knights share a half role with this group. This group includes Assault Marines and Bikes) - 1/5 total points limit <<< Speed Freaks can be dropped from your list entirely to bump your bruisers to 2/5 points limit, depending on how you wish to play.

Support (Units that bolster other units or dissuade enemy action. Includes Librarians, Dark Talons, the Dakka Pole and Dreadnoughts. After all, Dreadnoughts are more of a fear factor and speed bump for enemy assault units than a damaging unit) - 1/5 total points limit.

This usually works, but whether you follow this army list guide or not, you should at least create your own strict guidelines to follow until you find something effective for yourself!

I want to comment only on the line: Dont assault a LR with ravenwing knights.

If you surround the LR and manage to blow it up remember that the terminator squad inside is forefeat. They dont have enough space to deploy anywhere.

Thats 500 points plus in a single stroke.

I said don't assault the Land Raider, not "don't shoot the occupants of a destroyed Land Raider".

Even if you destroy the Land Raider in assault, the Terminators will normally overcome the Black Knights in the following turn.

As for surrounding the Land Raider, I would only personally do this is there is nothing else left on the field. You can never guarantee a Land Raider kill, no matter how many shots you have. Whilst other units are on the field, I normally leave the Land Raider alone, and try to force the contents to assault a cheap Tactical Squad. Then I shoot the men whom are no longer surrounded by armour 14.

[Brother Immolator]

The point is not fighting the terminators but denying them access points to dissembark when the vehicle blows. No place for placement no terminators.

I am sorry but you will miss the experience of seeing the face of your oponent going golly gee?!?!?!?!!? Try it you will like it ;)

At least for a laugh. It is something noone really expects it. I have a BT pall that absolutely hates my RW for that reason alone.

 

Granted a rw squad with melta guns will have higher chances of success in this endeavour but melta bombs and beakie hammers will do the job as well.

[Jack Hitchcock]

Best new unit in the codex IMHO. I've played them in a list where they are not the first trouble for my "enemy" so they could do a lot of damage.
They shoot a lot, and when only the BK seargent was still alive, I made him charge a chaos biker enemy unit of 3 models tryng, to tarpit it: plasma talons + corvus hammer = 3 bikers dead! XD

[Azrael Turnbull]

The point is not fighting the terminators but denying them access points to dissembark when the vehicle blows. No place for placement no terminators.

I am sorry but you will miss the experience of seeing the face of your oponent going golly gee?!?!?!?!!? Try it you will like it

At least for a laugh. It is something noone really expects it. I have a BT pall that absolutely hates my RW for that reason alone.

Granted a rw squad with melta guns will have higher chances of success in this endeavour but melta bombs and beakie hammers will do the job as well.

But do you agree that the effort is mainly paid for by Meltaguns? I do know what you mean by the experience of denying your opponent everything they were looking forward to do to you. Is it bad that I would actually feel more sorry for my opponent in that situation than I would feel smug about causing it?

In fact, it reminds me of when someone 'Deep Strike'd a Veteran Assault Squad in hopes of getting into assault on the turn he landed. He mishap'd and died. I felt so sorry for him that I allowed him to land where he wanted and carried on the game from there, anyway. I shall report this weakness to the Chaplaincy at once!

[GlauG]

My meagre contribution is this; go big or go home. I tried running three plus Sammael with a Darkshroud to back them (and a 6-man RW unit) up, only for them to fail a charge and get gunned down by rapid fire. If you are only using a small unit, they should either be a distraction for enemy fire (and they are too expensive for it really) or well-supported by other priority targets! Accordingly, I am now working on a unit of 9, plus a host of biker characters... I keep wondering about running Techmarines as ablative wounds for a RW Command Squad, on a related note.

[Brother Immolator]

The point is not fighting the terminators but denying them access points to dissembark when the vehicle blows. No place for placement no terminators.

I am sorry but you will miss the experience of seeing the face of your oponent going golly gee?!?!?!?!!? Try it you will like it

At least for a laugh. It is something noone really expects it. I have a BT pall that absolutely hates my RW for that reason alone.

Granted a rw squad with melta guns will have higher chances of success in this endeavour but melta bombs and beakie hammers will do the job as well.

But do you agree that the effort is mainly paid for by Meltaguns? I do know what you mean by the experience of denying your opponent everything they were looking forward to do to you. Is it bad that I would actually feel more sorry for my opponent in that situation than I would feel smug about causing it?

In fact, it reminds me of when someone 'Deep Strike'd a Veteran Assault Squad in hopes of getting into assault on the turn he landed. He mishap'd and died. I felt so sorry for him that I allowed him to land where he wanted and carried on the game from there, anyway. I shall report this weakness to the Chaplaincy at once!

I think I posted this a while ago but it vanished somehow.

The manouver I describe is not to be made with malicious intent or glee and then brag at how one is intelligent and a good general. Its just that, a tactical manouver that provides you the oportunity to whipe out two birds in one stroke. By all means if you feel 'dirty' dont use it. In fact I commend you Sir on taking sportsmanship onto a new level. I am especially happy that the DA ranks of players are having such players in their midst.

And yes indeed its a manouver best saved for a squad of bikers with melta guns. But I am convinsed that melta bombs and beakie hammers can pull double duty if the oportunity arrives.

GlauG : I am considering a cheap character to accompany them with one of those inv save field thingies (cant remember the name). A tech marine would be a boost to assault too...hm.... Their armor is black when attached to the RW we said?

[EPK]

A tech marine would be a boost to assault too...hm.... Their armor is black when attached to the RW we said?

So says the recent Ravenwing novel. Not sure what the dex says.

[Polythemus]

The point is not fighting the terminators but denying them access points to dissembark when the vehicle blows. No place for placement no terminators.

I am sorry but you will miss the experience of seeing the face of your oponent going golly gee?!?!?!?!!? Try it you will like it ;)

At least for a laugh.

 

The manouver I describe is not to be made with malicious intent or glee and then brag at how one is intelligent and a good general. Its just that, a tactical manouver that provides you the oportunity to whipe out two birds in one stroke. By all means if you feel 'dirty' dont use it. In fact I commend you Sir on taking sportsmanship onto a new level. I am especially happy that the DA ranks of players are having such players in their midst.

 

And yes indeed its a manouver best saved for a squad of bikers with melta guns. But I am convinsed that melta bombs and beakie hammers can pull double duty if the oportunity arrives.

Um im not sure i get how this works. Lets say your totally surrounding a landraider and inside said raider are 6termies. Now if you explode the raider, the models within are placed inside the space the raider used to occupy. It is only if they over flow that space that they would die from the "cant be placed rule". Not having tried this myself, and my apologies for hijacking the thread but how many termie can be placed in the space occupied by a landraider. It would seem you could place 6 on top therefore the only ones that die are those that die to failed saves. Its unlikely that they would all die. And it certainly wont result in a loss of 500 points.

 

More on topic rwk are the new things that go bump in the night. They are a great hammer unit that really complements the anvil of the deathwing. They are best when they can outflank and bring the pain. In the few games i have used them they have mercilessly wrecked face. Otherwise keep them at range and try and time your move in conjunction with the other elements of your army.

[CovertToaster]

I say always field a 10 man blob of BK's with one grenade launcher (maybe two). They're just too nasty to use any other way. Don't worry about the seemingly short ranges of the weapons as nothing should survive past the initial rapid fire and charge to be of any threat to you.  

[CovertToaster]

I say always field a 10 man blob of BK's with one grenade launcher (maybe two). They're just too nasty to use any other way. Don't worry about the seemingly short ranges of the weapons as nothing should survive past the initial rapid fire and charge to be of any threat to you. But do watch out for people trying to charge bait you!

 

Yeah, yeah, double post much!

 

Computer was running a damn virus check and my machine is getting so bloody old it takes forever to do anything, like clearing a post!

[GlauG]

: Brother Immolator

GlauG : I am considering a cheap character to accompany them with one of those inv save field thingies (cant remember the name). A tech marine would be a boost to assault too...hm.... Their armor is black when attached to the RW we said?

 

I am leaning towards red Techmarines on customised black bikes, myself, or at least a lot of red on the black. :)  The real question is, are Servo-arms worth it?

 

 

Um im

: Polythemus

not sure i get how this works. Lets say your totally surrounding a landraider and inside said raider are 6termies. Now if you explode the raider, the models within are placed inside the space the raider used to occupy. It is only if they over flow that space that they would die from the "cant be placed rule". Not having tried this myself, and my apologies for hijacking the thread but how many termie can be placed in the space occupied by a landraider.

 

 

If you wreck it, does it not count as impassable terrain?  So the argument would be, they can't be placed on the Raider wreck, and can't be placed near an access point (since there are bikes all round it), so they';re destroyed.  Can't get my rulebook atm, so prepared to be wrong. :) 

[elphilo]

Wrecked vehicles are difficult and dangerous, it's found on page 74 of the BRB.

 

The way the Terminators are destroyed is when placing them in the foot print of the Land Raider, you can not place a model within an inch of an enemy model. So pretty much subtract an inch from each side of the land raider and that is where you can place models "legally."

[Azrael Turnbull]

 

More on topic rwk are the new things that go bump in the night. They are a great hammer unit that really complements the anvil of the deathwing. They are best when they can outflank and bring the pain. In the few games i have used them they have mercilessly wrecked face. Otherwise keep them at range and try and time your move in conjunction with the other elements of your army.

 

^^^ This!

 

Basically, everything that I has said above made into one simple readable post. I need more people like Polythemus around. :)

[Polythemus]

Cheers azzy!

 

I also think that your formula for list construction seems like a very sound idea. Ive recently noticed i try to fit termies in way too often, as a holdover habit from the "other" codex that shall remain nameless. I am now experimenting alot more with tacticals and i am excited to see where this codex takes us.

[Brother Darklight]

Coming from a Black Templar,  It still baffles me how the Black Knights found their way into the wrong codex.  ;)

 

 

The Dark Angel side of me kind of likes them, though. That grenade launcher is a really neat support weapon when used in conjunction with other fire-teams/assault units.

[Brother Immolator]

Polythemus, in regards to placement of the models after a vehicle is wrecked, the BRB in pg 80 under the entry of the wrecked for transports, says that the passengers must preform an immediate disembarkation, as it is described in pg 79. The only exception is that they dont need to be within 6 inches but within 3 inches of the hull. Therefore you have to use the vehicles access points to dissembarck, after all they cant dessembark inside the land raider. Given that the access points are blocked they are unable therefore are removed as casualties.

EDIT: Brother Darklight, the blackknights came to the right chapter, the DA have been black long before the BT where even conceived

Fear not though and mark my words for I speak with knowledge. There shall come a time when the black templars will have bikers roaming the galaxy with lances. Just be patient for about 1,5 years.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Polythemus, in regards to placement of the models after a vehicle is wrecked, the BRB in pg 80 under the entry of the wrecked for transports,  says that the passengers must preform an immediate disembarkation, as it is described in pg 79. The only exception is that they dont need to be within 6 inches but within 3 inches of the hull. Therefore you have to use the vehicles access points to dissembarck, after all they cant dessembark inside the land raider. Given that the access points are blocked they are unable therefore are removed as casualties.

 

Unfortunately, not being able to place models means you have to refer to 'Emergency Disembarkation' which allows the full 6", albeit they'll be hanging around doing nothing. Alongside the side exits usually kept as far back as possible, it's more difficult to surround a transport than you think. ;)