Deathwing Apothecary

[Jolemai]

That is correct if you look at their unit type. They go from being of Veteran unit type to Apothecary unit type and while an Apothecary does not equal a Veteran they can be in the squad as they are an upgrade character. Just like a Veteran Sergeant is unit type Veteran Sergeant and not unit type (for example) Tactical Marine.

[Grey Mage]

So when you write down apothecary and then check to see if their weapon options are legal for apothecaries we find that.... there are none.

[Raeven]

Yep yep.

[Gentlemanloser]

So Apothecaries can't have a Storm Bolter, as it's not a legal option for them.

 

(Just to finish the thrust of GM's point)

[Morollan]

So when you write down apothecary and then check to see if their weapon options are legal for apothecaries we find that.... there are none.

 

 

I'll ask again, since previous posters were unable to offer an answer - where exactly are you checking this list of allowed equipment? There doesn't seem to be any such list in my codex or in the main rulebook. In the absence of such a list I just have to fall back on the codex entry which very clearly tells me that a Veteran can be upgraded with different weapons and can also be upgraded to an Apothecary, subject only to the requirement that he has a bolt pistol to trade for his narthecium. Unless of course you're arguing that individual models can only receive a single upgrade, in which case I'd have to ask you for your rules reference for that decision.

[Raeven]

Even your Ork example shows that you make upgrades to base models, and not upgraded models. The same can be asked of you, where does it say that you are allowed to do such a thing?

 

We may have that permission, but it is not implicit in any way. You are making the assumption that you can upgrade a model that has changed its type without an entry giving you permission to do so in the codex. Every other type upgrade has their name listed in the rest of the entry except for Dreadnoughts and Company Champions. All evidence in the entries points to upgrades being made to stock models.

 

Hell, Have you ever seen a GW display model Apothecary that has anything more than the stock equipment?

[Morollan]

I don't accept that the Ork example shows that at all. I can upgrade a Boy to a Nob, upgrade the rest of the mob to Shootas and give the Nob a Big Shoota.

[Raeven]

Same argument, no he can not.  Except this one is even more specific and damning for your argument because the Nob has it's own equipment choices.

 

The Orc Boys entry is a terrible example to use, because that codex does not use a standard syntax to define each model.  In that entry, Ork Boyz are referred as Mobs, Orks, and Boys.  The Dark Angel and Chaos SM codex has standardized the terminology.  You no longer have models referred to as anything but their specific name or "model".

 

But, you want further evidence.... here you go.  I just noticed this looking through the Ork FAQ.

 

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)
 

A: No.

 

I can upgrade the Nob to have that equipment before I upgrade him to a Painboy, right?  Nope.  Direct, unabashed confirmation that Apothecaries and any other named/statline upgrade, can only take equipment specifically listed under that new name/statline. 

 

But it doesn't say anything about weapons!!!  No, but weapon upgrades have the exact same terminology as 'eavy armor, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner, or ammo runt upgrades.  (Any Nob can take/replace...)  Therefore, not allowed. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Very good point. :)

[Captain Idaho]

To further support the post of Raeven:

 

Here's an example I wanted to point that supports my assertion a rule is relevant despite when it was selected, even retrospecitvely:

 

Dark Angels Assault squad - The entire squad can remove their jump packs for a Drop Pod or Rhino for free. You can do this at 5 men and it's fine. Then you can add up to five more models, who come equipped with jump packs as standard.

 

Now, is that correct? Does it even work? So you can have a 10 man squad with 5 Jump packers and 5 without, plus a Rhino?

 

I don't think many people will agree with that interpretation!

 

This is the same principle as the Deathwing Command squad. You can upgrade the Deathwing Terminator with a heavy weapon/specialist weapons, then upgrade to an Apothecary using the same loop hole, circumnavigating the rules. If you allow this then you allow the Assault squad example above because they work exactly the same way.

[MadDoc]

So Apothecaries can't have a Storm Bolter, as it's not a legal option for them.

(Just to finish the thrust of GM's point)

What we have there is a failure to properly read the Codex.

Codex: Dark Angels 6th Edition, p 45, 'Deathwing Command Squads' bestiary entry, under Wargear, and I quote:

Deathwing Apothecary: Terminator armour (pg 65), storm bolter, narthecium (pg 63).

[Morollan]

Same argument, no he can not.  Except this one is even more specific and damning for your argument because the Nob has it's own equipment choices.

 

The Orc Boys entry is a terrible example to use, because that codex does not use a standard syntax to define each model.  In that entry, Ork Boyz are referred as Mobs, Orks, and Boys.  The Dark Angel and Chaos SM codex has standardized the terminology.  You no longer have models referred to as anything but their specific name or "model".

 

But, you want further evidence.... here you go.  I just noticed this looking through the Ork FAQ.

 

Q: Can a Painboy in a unit of Nobs take the ‘eavy armour, bosspole,Waaagh! Banner or ammo runt upgrades? (p98)

 

A: No.

 

I can upgrade the Nob to have that equipment before I upgrade him to a Painboy, right?  Nope.  Direct, unabashed confirmation that Apothecaries and any other named/statline upgrade, can only take equipment specifically listed under that new name/statline. 

 

But it doesn't say anything about weapons!!!  No, but weapon upgrades have the exact same terminology as 'eavy armor, bosspole, Waaagh! Banner, or ammo runt upgrades.  (Any Nob can take/replace...)  Therefore, not allowed. 

 

Well firstly, yes the Nob can take a Big Shoota. You even go on to confirm this yourself in the very next paragraph. The Big Shoota upgrade is available to "Any Ork".

 

The second part of your post is however more convincing, although I somehow doubt that those posters who were earlier claiming that anything from the Ork FAQ only applies to Orks and has no relevance to this discussion will be applying the same logic to this point. So we have a FAQ that directly contradicts itself, which should hardly come as a surprise to anyone here who has any experience of GW writing and editorial standards. It's certainly something to think about and I'll give it some thought over the weekend if I get the chance.

[Captain Idaho]

I think the contradictory nature of that FAQ is largely caused by the intent and trying to fix it so it works along the lines of this intent.

 

I try to follow intent, using precedent and FAQs like this to apply GWs intent to other rules with no FAQ but similar concerns.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

What we have there is a failure to properly read the Codex.

 

And what does the Unit entry in the Army list say?  ;)

[Grey Mage]

 

So when you write down apothecary and then check to see if their weapon options are legal for apothecaries we find that.... there are none.

 

 

I'll ask again, since previous posters were unable to offer an answer - where exactly are you checking this list of allowed equipment? There doesn't seem to be any such list in my codex or in the main rulebook. In the absence of such a list I just have to fall back on the codex entry which very clearly tells me that a Veteran can be upgraded with different weapons and can also be upgraded to an Apothecary, subject only to the requirement that he has a bolt pistol to trade for his narthecium. Unless of course you're arguing that individual models can only receive a single upgrade, in which case I'd have to ask you for your rules reference for that decision.

No, Im saying that you have to reference the upgrade list compared to their profile- as itll say wich profiles can take what options. None are listed for the Apothecary, so anything with the apothecary profile cant take options.

[MadDoc]

What we have there is a failure to properly read the Codex.

And what does the Unit entry in the Army list say?

That a single Terminator can replace his power fist (and only his power fist) with a narthecium to be made a DW Apothecary. Meaning his basic wargear beyond that will remain unchanged, the beastiary entry simply confirms this already quite obvious point.

Meaning a storm bolter doesn't need to be an option for a DW Apothecary for him to have one as it will carry over as part of his starting wargear. It just so happens that a DW Apothecary has NO options at all, meaning that he will only ever have his basic wargear (conveniently listed in the bestiary entry for those who might harbour any doubts as to precisely what that wargear includes).

[Gentlemanloser]

No where does it mentioned 'starting' or 'basic'.

[Raeven]

Well firstly, yes the Nob can take a Big Shoota. You even go on to confirm this yourself in the very next paragraph. The Big Shoota upgrade is available to "Any Ork".

More likely that the Ork is referring to the "Ork" in "Ork" Boyz, and not Nobs. Go through the rest of the entries, no other Orks are listed as Any Ork, except for "Ork" Boyz. Nobs, Storm Boyz, Burnas...etc.. all are listed as named. Only the Ork Boyz truncates the naming convention to just Ork. So, take it as you will. Not a great entry to base precedence on, as it is the exception to the norm.

Now, I would agree that "Mob" is referring to any models in the unit.

No where does it mentioned 'starting' or 'basic'.

Pedantic much?

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Pedantic much?

 

Nah, RAW. ;)

[Dam13n]

I've always interpreted the unit upgrades to be done in the following order:

 

1 - Model upgrades (apothecary etc)

2 - Weapon upgrades (swap A for B )

3 - Additional weapons (take C )

 

So you upgrade a Deathwing Terminator to an Apothecary. At which point he ceases to be a Deathwing Terminator. At that point the "A Deathwing Terminator may..." options can no longer be taken by that model.

 

The Ork FAQ supports this. As it implies Model -> Weapon as the sequence of events.

 

The reason I see it this way is that it prevents you having models that are equipped with options that aren't available to them once their model type has been set.

 

This is also because you cannot prove that you took the weapon upgrade before the model upgrade if I were to query it before the game, and it doesn't say that an Apothecary can take those upgrades, therefore he can't be equipped with them.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

and it doesn't say that an Apothecary can take those upgrades, therefore he can't be equipped with them.

 

And here in lies the problem.

 

A DW Aothecary can't take a Storm Bolter.  Therefore he can't be equipped with one.

[dswanick]

 

A DW Aothecary can't take a Storm Bolter.  Therefore he can't be equipped with one.

Well then, it's a good thing he comes pre-equipped with one (C:DA, pg.45), so he doesn't have to "take" one.

[Grey Mage]

 

and it doesn't say that an Apothecary can take those upgrades, therefore he can't be equipped with them.

 

And here in lies the problem.

 

A DW Aothecary can't take a Storm Bolter.  Therefore he can't be equipped with one.

A Stormbolter is not optional equipment for a WG Terminator either- will you say the they cannot be equipped with them?

 

Basic equipment has never been covered by options.

[puffin]

This whole debate is getting more and more surreal.

 

I used to think it was just people arguing the difference between "order of operations" and "atomicity" but now it appears it's gone somewhere completely different.

 

For what it's worth it is my understanding that the list you create must be valid at the point of completion and order of operation does not exist.  

 

Example: As a chaos player, I may not buy 6 units of Cultists (troops), two units of Berserkers (Elites) and then a Khorne Lord (which makes my berserkers troop choices) because the result is that I have 8 troop choices.  It doesn't matter that I wrote the lord last on the list, my list is constrained by the rule "6 or fewer troop choices".

 

Similarly, with the Deathwing Command Squad I am not allowed to upgrade a terminator with a CML and then also convert him to an Apothecary.  Yes, one DWT can have a CML, and yes, one DWT can be upgraded to a DWA, but trying to do both results in you breaking the constraint "one DWT can have a CML" because a DWA is not a DWT once it has been upgraded and permission is not granted for a DWA to ever have a CML.  

 

TLDR: constraints are constraints and there is nothing in the rules allowing you to break them through cheeky order of operations exploiting.

[Gentlemanloser]

(Don't have the codex here any more, sadly)

 

 

Well then, it's a good thing he comes pre-equipped with one (C:DA, pg.45), so he doesn't have to "take" one.

 

Page 45 isn't the Army List unit entry though, is it?  Can't recall the Page Numbr of that, but in the Army List, the DWA doesn't have wargear listed specifically for them.

 

 

A Stormbolter is not optional equipment for a WG Terminator either- will you say the they cannot be equipped with them?


Basic equipment has never been covered by options.

 

I don't get this GM. The WG entry tells you what you replace, and what you get in return, when chosing the option to purchase TDA.  Which includes a Storm Bolter.

 

 

permission is not granted for a DWA to ever have a CML.

 

Where is the permission for the DWA to have a Storm Bolter?