Help with Legion Tactical Support Squad

[Cmdr Shepard]

Greetings fellow Legionaries,

 

I just noticed I have about 10 Space Marines, various armour marks, to assemble and I was thinking about the Legion Tactical Support Squad?

 

I'd like to build a unit I could use to support the bulk of any HH army I could play, if needed.

 

What do you think?  Which weapons do you suggest and how many SM should I put in the squad?

Plasma Guns is a quite versatile choice: quite good range, capable to threat vehicles up tp AV13 and deadly against infantry.

 

Since currently I don't have a plan for them I think plasma guns would make them more versatile then melta guns.

Volkite calivers are also tempting.

 

Any suggestion?

 

Thank You for your help.

[Haranin]

5-10 plasma guns means you are killing more of your men then the enemy!

 

Biggest problem with the specials is range. Which is why I'm going for the volkerite weapons- the extra range and high strength makes them a poor man's autocannon squad.... in a scoring slot.

 

Going with the the TOE you get two 20 man squads advancing, and one support squad providing covering fire. Mix in some AT guns and you are good to go.

[Cmdr Shepard]

5-10 plasma guns means you are killing more of your men then the enemy!

 

Biggest problem with the specials is range. Which is why I'm going for the volkerite weapons- the extra range and high strength makes them a poor man's autocannon squad.... in a scoring slot.

 

Going with the the TOE you get two 20 man squads advancing, and one support squad providing covering fire. Mix in some AT guns and you are good to go.

 

Well perhaps not more of my men then then enemy but at least one Marine per 12" range shooting phase. That brings me to reconsider the use of plasma guns support squads.

I like volkite weaponery so I suppose it could be an option. Even the melta guns have the chance to inflict heavy damage to enemy infantry too, but they have a very short range. 

 

Just a question: what do you mean with TOE? Currently I cannot remember what the acronym/initialism mean ;)

[Haranin]

Table of Organization and Equipment.

 

HH lists have 2 20 man squads and 1 10 man support squad per company; plus supporting assets.

[SillyDreadnought]

That's only a nominal standing. It varies massively. And you only get 9 special weapons per 10 man squad, the Sergeant cannot take a special weapon.

 

9 plasma or 9 volkites is how I plan to run my ranged support squads. 9 flamers for the budget lists.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Table of Organization and Equipment.

 

HH lists have 2 20 man squads and 1 10 man support squad per company; plus supporting assets.

 

 

That's only a nominal standing. It varies massively. And you only get 9 special weapons per 10 man squad, the Sergeant cannot take a special weapon.

 

9 plasma or 9 volkites is how I plan to run my ranged support squads. 9 flamers for the budget lists.

 

Fluff-wise, it indeed varies massively. According to Betrayal pagg 30-31, 2 Tac sqauds and 1 support squad are the forces under the command of a Lieutenant-grade officer.

However even this very organization should vary from Legion to Legion.

 

Back on the gaming aspect:

How did your plasma and volkite support squads perform?

[spu00sed]

I'm planning on a six man squad

 

5 plasma guns

And a plasma pistol and power sword on the sergeant

 

Sure every now and then I will kill my own squad, but I had entire squads of my lst and the damned panic themselves and run off of e board, so I am use to it.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I'm planning on a six man squad

5 plasma guns

And a plasma pistol and power sword on the sergeant

Sure every now and then I will kill my own squad, but I had entire squads of my lst and the damned panic themselves and run off of e board, so I am use to it.

Since the segeant can take artificier armour we can put him ahead and take the wounds suffered by the squad.

However if we spend the points for plasma pistol and power sword he wouldn't be the best choice for a "suicide" model ;)

Do you put them in a transport, usually a rhino unless a specific rite of war is chosen, or make them footslogging?

Do you think a 10 men squad is a little overkilling (well including auto overkilling ) and thus a waste of points?

[depthcharge12]

I would think that an 8 man squad with a primus medicae/ apothecary with a combi plas would do the trick (I can't remember if apothecaries can take one or not don't have book in front of me)

 

Here's my reasoning:

 

With 8 plasma guns (7 in squad plus combi) you can very reliably get 10 man squads to under 25 percent for morale checks or at least make them unthreatening or if faced with a 20 man squad try to double tap for similar effect.

 

In addition, the primus medicae if u get one, can reclaim a VP if they get killed (it is more than likely), and provide a valuable FNP against the inevitable bolter storm they'll face

 

If you somehow find the extra points and feel crazy enough the squad is small enough to fit in a rhino to do plas "DRIVE BYS!!!" while protected from bolters but lose the extra shots, but also be able to better maneuver and capture objectives fwiw

 

If you're going to dump points into a plas squad of death make it effective enough to last more than a few turns.

 

I would stick the "plasma medicae" squad with another squad of bolter boyz so the boyz can bubble wrap them and finish off whatever is left of the target

 

Definitely give the PM and squad leader arty armor but I would hesitate at putting equipment on the sarge

 

Now instead of a 300+ point one trick pony you now have a solid staying squad that is cost effective and can last a turn of shooting

 

Fwiw your BaC resident master tactician :lol:

[Cmdr Shepard]

I would think that an 8 man squad with a primus medicae/ apothecary with a combi plas would do the trick (I can't remember if apothecaries can take one or not don't have book in front of me)

Here's my reasoning:

With 8 plasma guns (7 in squad plus combi) you can very reliably get 10 man squads to under 25 percent for morale checks or at least make them unthreatening or if faced with a 20 man squad try to double tap for similar effect.

In addition, the primus medicae if u get one, can reclaim a VP if they get killed (it is more than likely), and provide a valuable FNP against the inevitable bolter storm they'll face

If you somehow find the extra points and feel crazy enough the squad is small enough to fit in a rhino to do plas "DRIVE BYS!!!" while protected from bolters but lose the extra shots, but also be able to better maneuver and capture objectives fwiw

If you're going to dump points into a plas squad of death make it effective enough to last more than a few turns.

I would stick the "plasma medicae" squad with another squad of bolter boyz so the boyz can bubble wrap them and finish off whatever is left of the target

Definitely give the PM and squad leader arty armor but I would hesitate at putting equipment on the sarge

Now instead of a 300+ point one trick pony you now have a solid staying squad that is cost effective and can last a turn of shooting

Fwiw your BaC resident master tactician

It seems a good plan ;)

Apothecary can take combi weapons and can be assingned to Support Squads.

The Primus Medicae ability recover kill points in nice. I usually put Primus Medicae in unit that cannot be "joined" by the apothecaries.

However I noticed Primus Medicae find the CC unit a dangerous place to be put in. They will find in base to base eventually and they are not very survivable.

If you lose a Primus Medicae you lose nearly the double of an apothecary cost, so putting him in "shooty" units may be a good idea.

I like the "bolter bubble wrap" idea but I'm usure about the rhino. A single rhino is a simple target and an easy way for the enemy to gain first blood point. It may be just one single point but a won a couple of matches thanks to it ;)

If I were on the battlefield of the Great Crusade (thus not limited by the points cost ) I'd say a Land Raider would be quite interesting. Immune to S7 weapons, only glanced to S8; able to advance with effective firepower before releasing its "plasma cargo of death" );... However from a gaming point of view it's probably too expensive for such purpose...

[SillyDreadnought]

 

Table of Organization and Equipment.

 

HH lists have 2 20 man squads and 1 10 man support squad per company; plus supporting assets.

 

 

>That's only a nominal standing. It varies massively. And you only get 9 special weapons per 10 man squad, the Sergeant cannot take a special weapon.

 

9 plasma or 9 volkites is how I plan to run my ranged support squads. 9 flamers for the budget lists.

 

Fluff-wise, it indeed varies massively. According to Betrayal pagg 30-31, 2 Tac sqauds and 1 support squad are the forces under the command of a Lieutenant-grade officer.

However even this very organization should vary from Legion to Legion.

 

Back on the gaming aspect:

How did your plasma and volkite support squads perform?

 

My plasma squad typically does very well in supporting my two Tactical squads. With average dice rolls, I only lose two or three men to overheats a game. My volkites are still being built, but in theory they should be pretty good. 30'' range, S6 two shot guns gives them good reach and good killing power against light vehicles ( Av10/11 ) and all infantry targets short of Terminators.

 

I have found though that TacSupports either need an Apothecary babysitting them, or a Rhino on standby. They either need the mobility to get to where their specialist guns are needed quickly, or they get burnt down by concentrated fire and need an Apothecary to mitigate the worst of that.

 

 

As for the nominal organisation, I do tend to try and follow the ratio, with 2 twenty strong Tactical squads to every support squad. Ten man Tacticals are suited to mechanised or drop lists, not a foot horde like I run.

[Cmdr Shepard]

 

My plasma squad typically does very well in supporting my two Tactical squads. With average dice rolls, I only lose two or three men to overheats a game. My volkites are still being built, but in theory they should be pretty good. 30'' range, S6 two shot guns gives them good reach and good killing power against light vehicles ( Av10/11 ) and all infantry targets short of Terminators.

 

I have found though that TacSupports either need an Apothecary babysitting them, or a Rhino on standby. They either need the mobility to get to where their specialist guns are needed quickly, or they get burnt down by concentrated fire and need an Apothecary to mitigate the worst of that.

 

 

As for the nominal organisation, I do tend to try and follow the ratio, with 2 twenty strong Tactical squads to every support squad. Ten man Tacticals are suited to mechanised or drop lists, not a foot horde like I run.

 

The sheer amount of shots should be able to make volkite culverins a threat to TDA too. My Dual Kheres Contemptor has killed more terminators then light vehicles. And they did it even with very few rending shots (for the records most of my rending shots are always saved by invul or FNP ;) )

Sadly I don't have volkite calivers but only chargers. I ordered them the time I bought Betrayal book so I hadn't the full picture. I thought the assault version whould have had a wider use then the heavy ones. Obviously it is the contrary ;)

 

I agree on the "protection" for the support squad. The only problem is a single rhino is a easy target and an easy first blood point for your opponent, unless the table gives you the chance to keep it hidden from heavy weapons' attention.

FNP granted by the apothecary is very useful but, as you mentioned, the rhino will give you greater mobility for "redeployment", if it survives long enough to do it.

[SillyDreadnought]

If you want to avoid the 'single rhino' problem you can just buy Rhinos on your normal Tacticals as well and go full mechanized. Or if you're somewhat twisted in the head, full drop pod.

 

The only Tac Support squad I'd warn you off is the meltagun one. It's overkill and one of the most expensive loadouts, tied with the plasma gun loadout, for half the effective range and an even bigger dependance on a Rhino carrier. With the other weapons, even the Rotary Cannon, a Rhino is just a good idea to have around for a hasty redeployment to a better position. For the melta squad, it's a lifeline and a weakness. Once the Rhino is dead, you have 9 useless short ranged weapons lagging behind your main advance, getting shot to bits as they catch up with their choice targets.

 

Better to take the longer ranged support weapons.

 

 

 

That said, a Heavy Weapons team with Multi-meltas is quite tempting. If I wasn't already committed to plasma cannons for my SoH I'd try them out. My IW on the other hand.. hmm.

[Cmdr Shepard]

If you want to avoid the 'single rhino' problem you can just buy Rhinos on your normal Tacticals as well and go full mechanized. Or if you're somewhat twisted in the head, full drop pod.

 

The only Tac Support squad I'd warn you off is the meltagun one. It's overkill and one of the most expensive loadouts, tied with the plasma gun loadout, for half the effective range and an even bigger dependance on a Rhino carrier. With the other weapons, even the Rotary Cannon, a Rhino is just a good idea to have around for a hasty redeployment to a better position. For the melta squad, it's a lifeline and a weakness. Once the Rhino is dead, you have 9 useless short ranged weapons lagging behind your main advance, getting shot to bits as they catch up with their choice targets.

 

Better to take the longer ranged support weapons.

 

 

 

That said, a Heavy Weapons team with Multi-meltas is quite tempting. If I wasn't already committed to plasma cannons for my SoH I'd try them out. My IW on the other hand.. hmm.

 

Melta gun squad is indeed overkilling. I strongly agree about it. Drop Pods lists are very interesting. The only problem is putting 10 SM in the line of fire of the enemy or being charged the turn they arrive.

Hower a Plasma Squad disembarking from a drop pod nearly its targets means a lot of dead enemies ;)

I thought about a Drop Pod list for my Angron led World Eaters. It would be very fluffy. Angron should get a lot of attentions and survive while the rest of the army included the plasma sqaud open fires and charge the next turn. Not bad... If I only bought more drop pods in the past...;)

[AllHailTheMachine]

I regularly use a squad of 10 with plasma and a combi plasma on the sergeant along with an augury scanner. I generally keep them closely following round a big tactical squad with extra ccw and a presience librarian and apothecary attached.

 

In this context they have served me very well. The augury scanner keeps deep strikers away, giving a good chance to soften up any target for the tactical squad to kill with wrath of the legion or assault. The librarian close by can give them a reroll to hit when you really want it, reducing the chance of gets hot.

 

The only real difficulty I'm having is them staying alive till turn 4 as my opponents can see the threat they pose and wheel their very cost effective vindicators out to flatten them as soon as they can.

 

Still im very content with how they work as if I can tear those pride of the legion terminator squads into bite size chunks for the rest of my army I'm a very happy son of fenris.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I regularly use a squad of 10 with plasma and a combi plasma on the sergeant along with an augury scanner. I generally keep them closely following round a big tactical squad with extra ccw and a presience librarian and apothecary attached.

 

In this context they have served me very well. The augury scanner keeps deep strikers away, giving a good chance to soften up any target for the tactical squad to kill with wrath of the legion or assault. The librarian close by can give them a reroll to hit when you really want it, reducing the chance of gets hot.

 

The only real difficulty I'm having is them staying alive till turn 4 as my opponents can see the threat they pose and wheel their very cost effective vindicators out to flatten them as soon as they can.

 

Still im very content with how they work as if I can tear those pride of the legion terminator squads into bite size chunks for the rest of my army I'm a very happy son of fenris.

 

Presience Librarian helps a lot, especially when you fire at 12" range: with all of those shots is quite easy getting few 1 and that means you will lose both shots from that model.

Ld 9 is a problem sometimes but I once tried Presience on a 20 men additional CCW lead by a Praetor for a 1000 pts SoH play test match and it was amazing.

 

Not surviving beyond Turn 4 is not a terrible event, if the sqaud pay its cost back and/or keep other key units alive ;).

 

Vindicators hurt and a lot. I know because I tried a Vindicator with Machine Spirit (I know many players suggest to not give it to vindis, but I'd wanted to try it): 12" movent and 24" range was devastating for a good section of enemy army.

 

Augury scanner is good anti-deep strike tool. All of those plasma shots will keep most units at good distance ;)

[Massaen]

Having tried a minimum volkite unit I can say its devastating to non PA wearers... Whole units die in a single volley. Also great for light tanks and even AA

[Cmdr Shepard]

Having tried a minimum volkite unit I can say its devastating to non PA wearers... Whole units die in a single volley. Also great for light tanks and even AA

 

It should be deadly against Orks... and any anspiring Warmaster knows he has to kill a huge Ork Warboss ;)

 

Jokes a part I know volkites are quite effective, in fact I'm thinking about equiping a support sqaud with such weaponery for the SoH army I'm building.

Even though support squads cannot be chosen to fill the compulsory troop selections they are indeed scoring units. A volkite calivers squad is a good unit for holding a objective in you deployment zone. Their 30" will make sure they will able to join the battle instead of sitting on the objective and do nothing else.

 

What not PA unit did your sqaud killed in a single volley?