Thunderwolves(Bears) & Wolf(Bear) Wing?

[Ravenfeld]

Hey Guys,

 

Now while I am wholley in the Iron Hands corner I have a concept for a small, one off side project involving the Space Wolves. My Concept is a strong, small unit count force that has substantial hitting power. Now originally the Logan Wing was where I was going with it, but I have seen the "war bears" at Scibor miniatures and had the thought that a unit of Thunderbear Cavalry would be hilariously awesome! That being said, could you make a semi-competitive list using the logan wing methodology but also adding in thunderwolf cav @ 2000 points?

 

I was thinking I might make a Wolf Guard with Mark of the Hunter so the bears could outflank? Don't have my book on hand though.

 

Anyway, thoughts!?

How would you make this list?!

Obvious Strengths and Weaknesses?!

 

Remember, one of the goals is to keep the model count relatively low, as it would be a financial investment for something that I just wanna get out of my head!

 

Thanks in Advance,

Raven

[maverik_girl]

Welcome to the Fang! unfortunately the Wolf Guard has to be infrantry only. So no you cannot outflank with Thunderwolves/bears.

[montegue]

There's one way you can do it. When you pick your Warlord traits, go for the middle column and hope for a 3. :) 

[postal105]

you can though use the thunder cav as the  hammer to the termanator anvil.

[Ravenfeld]

you can though use the thunder cav as the  hammer to the termanator anvil.

 

Okay, so in order to do this effectively what would you suggest? Would you equip them a certain way, how many would you take?

[Squark]

Depends on a lot of things, really. Basically, Space Wolves hammer and Anvil strategies use Drop pods containing major threats, with Thunderwolf Cavalry charging in by turn 2, putting your opponent between a rock and a hard place. The Anvil (The unyielding force behind enemy lines) here can be 5 Terminators in a drop pod or a Logan-bomb (Multi-melta Long Fangs+Logan Grimnar+Rune Priest with Jaws+Stormcaller/Arjac), while the Hammer (The swift assault unit that smashes the enemy against the Anvil) is the Thunderwolf Cavalry. Alternatively, Allies can open up some other possibilities for Anvils, like Grand Master Mordak, Sternguard, etc.

 

Numbers-wise... This is generally a high point cost tactic. I'd say you're going to want 1-2 units in the Anvil, and either 2 groups of 3 Thunderwolves or 1 group of 5 in the hammer. Strive to keep the rest of the list cheap; The Grey Hunters doing the scoring and following behind the Thunderwolves should probably leave their standards, power weapons, and Wulfen-touched at home, and I'd avoid any Long Fang builds more expensive than missile fangs (Especially since most of the Anvils available to you are excellent anti-tank units in their own right) for your back line.

 

Grey Hunters... Might work as an anvil. Issue is, you'd need ~5 pods for it to work in my mind, and by that time you're pretty much a drop pod list already.

[Ravenfeld]

Depends on a lot of things, really. Basically, Space Wolves hammer and Anvil strategies use Drop pods containing major threats, with Thunderwolf Cavalry charging in by turn 2, putting your opponent between a rock and a hard place. The Anvil (The unyielding force behind enemy lines) here can be 5 Terminators in a drop pod or a Logan-bomb (Multi-melta Long Fangs+Logan Grimnar+Rune Priest with Jaws+Stormcaller/Arjac), while the Hammer (The swift assault unit that smashes the enemy against the Anvil) is the Thunderwolf Cavalry. Alternatively, Allies can open up some other possibilities for Anvils, like Grand Master Mordak, Sternguard, etc.

 

Numbers-wise... This is generally a high point cost tactic. I'd say you're going to want 1-2 units in the Anvil, and either 2 groups of 3 Thunderwolves or 1 group of 5 in the hammer. Strive to keep the rest of the list cheap; The Grey Hunters doing the scoring and following behind the Thunderwolves should probably leave their standards, power weapons, and Wulfen-touched at home, and I'd avoid any Long Fang builds more expensive than missile fangs (Especially since most of the Anvils available to you are excellent anti-tank units in their own right) for your back line.

 

Grey Hunters... Might work as an anvil. Issue is, you'd need ~5 pods for it to work in my mind, and by that time you're pretty much a drop pod list already.

 

Thank you sir, now that is insightful!

 

But.. I have a challenge for you. My Iron Hands are already themed around podding in, is there a way to make this list work without Pods? Haha!

[Mr.Tibbs]

Forgive me for I'm just getting back into the game and I might have read the rules wrong but ...

 

If you're taking a Logan-wing army, then your Wolf Guard count as Troops. In this case, you could have a pack of up to 10 Wolf Guard kitted out with TDA and whatever you heart desires for weapons, and attach to them a Rune Priest (again, kitted out how you want) with Saga of the Hunter. All of them will be able to Outflank, as they're all infantry (complying with Saga of the Hunter rules). Acute senses will give you a better chance of getting the table edge you want. Run your hammer towards their lines, and then a well-timed Reserve roll puts 10 Terminators right along the opponent's table edge. Cyclone missile launchers and combi-weapons would be great for this kind of attack.

 

Following that line, I also believe it is possible to take a Landraider as a dedicated transport and, as long as the unit (including the IC with Saga of the Hunter) is deployed inside the vehicle, it will be able to Outflank as well! I'll let others confirm that for me, but I think that's the case. A Land Raider that pours out shooty terminators coming from their table edge? Spicy.

[Ravenfeld]

Spicy is right! And lets not forget that Wolves get 4 HQ slots at 2000 points, right? That means I could almost do that same strategy TWICE and still have a Wolf Guard with my Thunder Bears running up mid field! Who needs drop pods when you have Tanks & Bears, am I right?

[Sun Reaver]

You could just ally with Kor'sarro Khan

[Ravenfeld]

You could just ally with Kor'sarro Khan

 

See my Iron Hands are already using C:SM, so I'd like to keep this as pure C:SW as possible. That isn't to say I won't entertain ideas like the one above, just trying for purity.

[Squark]

Forgive me for I'm just getting back into the game and I might have read the rules wrong but ...

 

If you're taking a Logan-wing army, then your Wolf Guard count as Troops. In this case, you could have a pack of up to 10 Wolf Guard kitted out with TDA and whatever you heart desires for weapons, and attach to them a Rune Priest (again, kitted out how you want) with Saga of the Hunter. All of them will be able to Outflank, as they're all infantry (complying with Saga of the Hunter rules). Acute senses will give you a better chance of getting the table edge you want. Run your hammer towards their lines, and then a well-timed Reserve roll puts 10 Terminators right along the opponent's table edge. Cyclone missile launchers and combi-weapons would be great for this kind of attack.

 

Following that line, I also believe it is possible to take a Landraider as a dedicated transport and, as long as the unit (including the IC with Saga of the Hunter) is deployed inside the vehicle, it will be able to Outflank as well! I'll let others confirm that for me, but I think that's the case. A Land Raider that pours out shooty terminators coming from their table edge? Spicy.

Just a heads up- Loganwing itself isn't actually an effective choice- At the end of the day, Space Wolf Terminators are worse at shooting and comparably durable to Grey Hunters point by point- Which leaves assault, and pure Assault armies are suffering heavily at the moment. Also, Logan is more expensive than a Landraider.

 

Granted, if you're taking Logan (Just to be clear- He probably doesn't belong with the Wolf Guard), he certainly does make taking one or two unit of wolf guard that much more effective. But you still probably want Grey Hunters for the backbone of the list.

[Ravenfeld]

How are Wolf Guard more ineffective at shooting than vanilla tactical terminators? I don't see it. Especially when you can have such a prolific amount of missiles & assault cannons to round out your ranged touch. Ideally I think I would want two land raiders w/ wolf guard, x1 thunderwolf cav, and maybe a couple of missile fang squads. If need be Logan could go with the Fangs instead of being up front.

[Mr.Tibbs]

 

How are Wolf Guard more ineffective at shooting than vanilla tactical terminators? I don't see it. Especially when you can have such a prolific amount of missiles & assault cannons to round out your ranged touch. Ideally I think I would want two land raiders w/ wolf guard, x1 thunderwolf cav, and maybe a couple of missile fang squads. If need be Logan could go with the Fangs instead of being up front.

I'll let him explain more fully, but I think Squark is arguing from a firepower-per-points perspective, as opposed to comparing Wolf Guard Terminators and their vanilla Terminator counterparts. Relative to other choices, we pay a lot of points - between 2x and 3x - to give Wolf Guard survivability via TDA. For the cost of the HQ, Wolf Guard and Landraider to come from behind, you could probably field multiple GH squads led by WGPL meatshields in TDA, backed by Long Fang support, and still throw in a Rune Priest leading a GH squad from behind with 2 plasma guns, and another WGPL with TDA and a cyclone launcher. At mid-to-close range GH squads put out a high amount of firepower for their cost.

[Ravenfeld]

 

How are Wolf Guard more ineffective at shooting than vanilla tactical terminators? I don't see it. Especially when you can have such a prolific amount of missiles & assault cannons to round out your ranged touch. Ideally I think I would want two land raiders w/ wolf guard, x1 thunderwolf cav, and maybe a couple of missile fang squads. If need be Logan could go with the Fangs instead of being up front.

 

I'll let him explain more fully, but I think Squark is arguing from a firepower-per-points perspective, as opposed to comparing Wolf Guard Terminators and their vanilla Terminator counterparts. Relative to other choices, we pay a lot of points - between 2x and 3x - to give Wolf Guard survivability via TDA. For the cost of the HQ, Wolf Guard and Landraider to come from behind, you could probably field multiple GH squads led by WGPL meatshields in TDA, backed by Long Fang support, and still throw in a Rune Priest leading a GH squad from behind with 2 plasma guns, and another WGPL with TDA and a cyclone launcher. At mid-to-close range GH squads put out a high amount of firepower for their cost.

 

While that makes perfect sense, part of this project is to try and keep the model count low intentionally so I don't need to dump too much dosh on it to make it work. I want semi-competitive, sure, but I don't need to win every match and, since I would only use it from time to time for the shock factor, I don't need huge amounts of diverse troops either. Its supposed to be something I pull out to make my opponent grimace & smile at the same time, have some fun matches, then pack it up and move back to my Iron Hands again. So, with that in mind I appreciate the fact that they are costly for what they do, but that is part of the reason I am going that direction in the first place! Hehehe.

 

Thanks again,

Raven

[Squark]

Well, If you're just going for low model count, that's fine. But be aware that Grey Knights do the same thing but without an HQ tax, and Deathwing has a smaller HQ tax and a lot more tricks up its sleeves, which means you've playing less powerful versions of armies savvy opponents were already preparing against. And Price-wise, unless you're overpaying for them, 5 Terminators is about the same price point per point as 10 basic power armored troops, but the former is 50 USD, the latter is 37.50 USD.

How are Wolf Guard more ineffective at shooting than vanilla tactical terminators? I don't see it. Especially when you can have such a prolific amount of missiles & assault cannons to round out your ranged touch. Ideally I think I would want two land raiders w/ wolf guard, x1 thunderwolf cav, and maybe a couple of missile fang squads. If need be Logan could go with the Fangs instead of being up front.

Oh, they're better at shooting than tactical terminators (Granted, I question the value of the tactical terminator, but that's digressing). But I was talking about Grey hunters.

 

Let me break it down with (1 variable) mathhammer

 

 

Wolf Guard in TDA with Storm bolter and Power Axe -33 points

Grey Hunter -15 points

 

Both models get a bit higher if upgrades are involved; Grey hunters come to 18.5 points apiece with 2 Plasmaguns, a Power Axe/Mark of the Wulfen, and A Wolf Standard, while adding combi-weapons to the Wolf Guard pack brings them up to 38 points a model. I'm going to skip upgrades here because the points ratio is still roughly 2:1

 

 

5 Wolf Guard terminators get 10 Bolter shots at 24", and 10 bolter shots at 12"

10 Grey Hunters get 10 bolter shots at 24", and 20 bolter shots at 12"

 

As for the Assault cannon;

 

4 S6 AP4 rending shots vs. 2-4 S7 AP 2 shots- And the plasmaguns are a lot cheaper than the Assault cannon. The Cyclone Missile Launcher's a bit trickier for a strict comparison, since you've got a much longer range, and the effectiveness of the frag rockets varies incredibly on who you're playing and how they spread out their troops. I'm going to say both have their merits, but the Plasmagun is a whole lot cheaper. Also, what is the CMC doing here, when it could be in your Long Fangs pack?

 

Winner- Grey Hunters

 

Now for survivability

 

Vs. AP4+

Grey Hunters have a 2/3 chance of making their armor save, while Terminators have a 5/6 chance- Twice as survivable. BUT, Each Wolf Guard terminator costs ~twice as much as a Grey Hunter, which makes each casualty a lot more debilitating. Ultimately, survivability is about equal.

Vs. AP3

Grey Hunters have a 0% chance of making the save, while TErminators have their 2+ still. This is squarely in favor of the terminators. But, consider the if anything more prolific...

Vs. AP2

Grey Hunters have a 0% chance of making the save, while Terminators have a 5++. After we factor in the higher points cost, I'd say the Terminators are still winning out here. Until we bring cover saves into the equation, which gives the Grey Hunters twice the survivability of the Terminators.

Dedicated Transports: Grey Hunters can take Rhinos and Razorbacks, and can hop in land raiders if you so desire. Wolf Guard have to take the land raider or go without a transport (NOTE: Since a drop pod provides no protection, I'm not considering it here in survivability. And besides, both units can take one). Availability of cheap metal box means Grey Hunters are the winners here.

 

Survivability: overall, Relatively equal. Wolf Guard.

 

This leaves assault. Here's where terminators win out- Quality vs. Quantity- Sure, 10 Grey Hunters make 30 attacks (40 on a charge), while Wolf Guard terminators only get 10 (15 on a charge). But, the Wolf Guard have Power Weapons, which counts for a lot. Also, AP 2 is a lot rarer in assault compared to AP 3, which means the Wolf Guard get the edge in survivability (also, Cover saves don't exist in Close combat).

[Ravenfeld]

Alright! Alright, I see what you're saying. So, with ALL those points in mind, how do I make this list viable!

 

Hahaha, I know Deathwing and Greyknights are prolific, especially DA right now. I realize that in a seriously competitive environment I'll be at a disadvantage, but this list isn't meant to be used in tournaments. I am just aiming to make a list that is gimmicky and fun to use, while maintaining a low body count. That being said you put forth a very persuasive argument and I might be swayed to throw some grey hunters into the mix. So tell me then, my friend, with at least one unit of Terminators, at least one land raider, maybe x2 predators? at least one unit of TWC, and Long Fangs / Grey Hunters. How would you compose this list to make it competitive. My only outstanding limitation aside from the units above is that I want to avoid Pods at all costs because, as I said, my Iron Hands have 5 pods + 2 dread pods already and I want something more grounded!

 

If it wasn't for my scottish theme I would probably end up using greyknights or DW instead, but that clanesque mentality, mighty heroes, and the whole lot just fits too snuggly! Also, I would like to use Logan "Counts As" because I have a really cool modeling idea. But then again, I could just make a Bear Riding Lord instead! Haha!

 

Thanks again for your imput, this is precisely the kind of insight I was looking to glean!

Raven

[Squark]

Hrrm... Wolf Guard terminators in a land raider?

 

 

Let me think...

 

6 Wolf Guard -393 points

-Arjac Rockfist

-3x TDA with Power Axe+Combi-weapon

-2x TDA with Wolf Claw+ Combi-weapon (You can save 10 points here and get Power Swords/Mauls if you wish)

 

You can save another 150 points by turning Arjac into another Power Axe+ Combi-weapon guy (I like a mix of plasma and melta for effectiveness against both 2+ saves and vehicles, but you can go all one way or the other if you like). Or you can splurge and pay 40 points more to make these guys pretend to be Assault terminators like so

 

3x Powerfist+Wolf Claw

2x Storm Shield+ Power Axe

 

Plus, you pay 250 points for a land raider redeemer (The multi-melta really just ought to be standard on that thing).

 

Thunderwolves... I'd say a pack of 4 with a storm shield out in front and a Stormshield+Powerfist guy in the middle (285 points). Adding Logan into the mix (Which I'm still on the fence about- I'm honestly not sure where to put him), So, you're looking at 778-968 points for these two units (I might put the Land Raider in heavy support so it scores whenever The Big Guns never tire rolls, though). So, I wouldn't try this out of a high point game. Let's see... at 1500, take the cheapest Wolf Guard unit possible...

 

HQ: Rune Priest -100 Points

-Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf

 

Elites: Wolf Guard Pack -228 points

-4x Combi-weapon+ Power Axe

-2x Combi-weapon+ Power Sword

 

Troops: 10 Grey Hunters -160 points

-2 Plasmaguns

 

10 Grey Hunters -160 points

-2 Plasmaguns

 

10 Grey Hunters -160 points

-2 Plasmaguns

 

Fast Attack: 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry -285 points

-Storm Shield, Powerfist+Stormshield

 

Heavy Support: 6 Long Fangs -140 points

-5 Missile Launchers

 

Land Raider Redeemer With Multi-melta -250 points

 

Total: 1483 points

 

Not sure what to do with those last 17 points. But, here's the rough example of what you're looking for.

 

Atlernatively, at 1850, you could try 2 land raiders of Wolf Guard, a pack of Thunderwolves, and a Logan Bomb (Logan Grimnar giving relentless to a pack of Multi-melta long fangs in a drop pod. Requires something like Thunderwolves to bail him out, and involves using a drop pod, but Logan doesn't actually want to travel with wolf Guard). That pretty much eats up your points right there, but that gets the units you want with minimal drop pods.

[Ravenfeld]

That is looking pretty damn solid my friend, thank you.

 

What if we swapped Logan out for a Bear Lord? What would you do then?

 

Also what about Predators, can they be squeezed in somehow? Say even for 2000 points? Haha! Talk about asking a lot am I right?

[Squark]

Bringing that list up to 2k points... Hrrmmm... If' you want a Thunderwolf Lord (Or bear, in this case) , here's what I'd do for those last 500 points. Wouldn't  drive the cost of the army much, either, since you've already got the thunderwolves left over from the second box.

 

 

Wolf Lord

-Thunderwolf Mount, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Runic Armor, Belt of Russ, Saga of the Bear/Warrior Born -270 points

Wolf Guard Battle Leader Company Champion-190 points

-Thunderwolf Mount, Powerfist, Runic Armor, Storm Shield

 

That's 470 points, and gives you a third death star (The pack leader's there to take challenges while the Lord kills the rest of the squad). If you can dig up 65 points, you can up the Battle LEader to a Wolf Lord and give him the other saga (Probably saga of the bear) and just say he's a really really badass wolfguard pack leader.

[Ravenfeld]

Isn't there some rule where every wolf guard needs to be armed differently?

 

That seems like a very solid use of that last 500 points, when I get home I'll take what you've given me and flesh it out further, then post it to get your & anyone else's insights into the whole list, then we can get down into the strategies of how to best use it!

 

Thanks again everyone, with a significant hat tip to Squark!

[Squark]

That's just HQ units. It can arguably be extended to Wolf Guard Pack Leaders as well, but that's against the spirit of the rule.

[skeletoro]

TDA WG have great shooting, for an assault unit. That's the key, IMO. On the charge, without upgrades, they pack about as much bolter fire per point spent than unupgraded grey hunters. With combi-weapons, though, their shooting is actually pretty decent. How many rounds does a grey hunter or wolf guard normally last? Let's say the average is 4. Let's assume that the average grey hunter spends 1 round locked in melee (or in a transport/reserves)  but gets to rapid fire for 3 rounds. Let's give him 6 bolter shots. That's about .11 * 6 = .66 wounds caused against MEQ. In the same circumstances, a plasma gun would deal about .56 * 6 = 3.36 wounds, and a full unit of grey hunters with 2 plasma guns would deal about 12 wounds vs. MEQ (for a cool 160 points, but note that it's almost inconceivable that you'd built a grey hunters unit this way - it would likely cost more).

 

For 160 points, you could 4.21 TDAWG with combi-plas. I'll round it up to 5 (I'm sure the grey hunters would buy a few more points worth of upgrades!) If allowed 6 rapid fire shots per model (2 plasma, 4 bolter) this TDAWG unit would deal about 7.8 wounds.

 

It's certainly less than the grey hunters deal. But, putting it in perspective, it's not bad at all.

 

First, the plasma shots are unloaded early. This means that after a single round of fire, the TDAWG have dealt a fair bit more damage than the grey hunters have (5.6 vs 4). In terms of attrition, an early kill is worth much more than a late kill.

 

Second, it's relentless. The TDAWG can follow up their plasma shots with a charge, and they are quite likely to win this assault by a large margin, due to their power weapons and the 5.6 wounds they've already dealt. A combi-plas charge will wipe most MEQ units off the board without suffering many casualties at all.

 

As you can see above, it's quite hard to compare grey hunters to wolf guard because while grey hunters often have a meaningful and sometimes downright difficult decision as to whether to charge or counterattack, wolf guard really ought to charge pretty much every opportunity they get. They aren't a particularly good shooting unit. However, for an assault unit, they have exceptionally good shooting, which complements strongly their strengths as a unit.

[Squark]

Main issue is getting them in position to charge. They can't assault out of a drop pod (Which, if you don't shoot the plasmaguns that turn, kind of makes you skip a turn. And if you do, that might not be the unit you get to charge), and footslogging doesn't work for assault units, which leaves the land raider. Which is really, really expensive.

 

 

And my point was that Wolf Guard Terminators are for assault. Sure, they can shoot pretty well compared to, say, Blood Claws or Thunderwolf Cavalry, but if you want to shoot things, take Grey Hunters and Long Fangs instead.

[Ravenfeld]

On that note I most certainly do NOT want shooty things. My whole Iron Hands list is drop pod shooty! Heck I even use Tactical Terminators over Assault Termies, THAT is how committed to firepower I am! So assault is the name of the game, and Land Raiders are in season!

 

Haven't had a chance to tinker with the lists, i'll try and get around to it tonight though!

 

Thanks for the input! You guys rock!