old word bearer friend makes his appearance in horus heresy

[hummus]

http://www.blacklibrary.com/horus-heresy/dark-heart-ebook.html

this will be awesome

[Brother Dakath]

Interesting. I love the Word Bearer Trilogy but I never would have suspected that they would bring Marduk into the Horus Heresy. Don't get me wrong, I love Marduk but for some odd reason it sits...well, I don't know how it sits with me. I always imagined the Horus Heresy to be filled with the names of legend for lack of a better word. I'll definitely read it and see how I feel about it then though.

[Kol Saresk]

Well as Anthoney Reynolds put it on the BL blog yesterday, this is supposed to be a Horus Heresy story, not a Marduk story. Marduk just happens to be in it because apparently Laurie Goulding asked for a 40k story with Marduk at Calth.

[T0MMY]

Surely that's the thing with the chaos legions though; that a lot of them fighting "today" in the 40K universe were there at the beginning of the heresy. So, although we mainly hear stories of the primarchs and key players in the CSM armies, a lot of the lesser troops would have also been there. In the night lord, word bearer, etc. novels the 'heros' quite often relate to "being there" on the walls of the emperors palace or drop site masacre, etc. so I figure there's no reason that we wouldn't hear of them in the heresy books, albeit they may only be sergeants or apothecarys at the time.

One of the main things I love about the chaos marines is that they have more history (and better knowledge of the begining of the war) than the loyalist youngsters

[Ammonius]

After Angel Exterminatus, I worry that this is being overdone.

 

It's one thing to briefly mention a grunt in the background with a distinguishing feature of some kind that makes you realize "hey! that's so-and-so from that 40K era book! neat" as opposed to having so many familiar names and character traits that it takes you out of the story.

[Kol Saresk]

Well that was the fear before Angel Exterminatus was printed. As it is, if the blog is anything to go by then one of the editors specifically asked for this and Anthoney Reynolds simply obliged. It's not like Prince of Crows where A D-B just mentions the Covenant of Blood and I think even Talos specifically during his time as an Apothecary. This is story is most likely going to be like Angel Exterminatus, "here is how so-and-so from 40k became as messed up in the head as he is."

[A D-B]

Well that was the fear before Angel Exterminatus was printed. As it is, if the blog is anything to go by then one of the editors specifically asked for this and Anthoney Reynolds simply obliged. It's not like Prince of Crows where A D-B just mentions the Covenant of Blood and I think even Talos specifically during his time as an Apothecary. This is story is most likely going to be like Angel Exterminatus, "here is how so-and-so from 40k became as messed up in the head as he is."

 

Uh, with all due respect, dude - that's not a great example. I've said about a billion times that I categorically avoid doing this stuff, as I dislike it a lot. I avoid the "Here are my guys from 40K" vibe, since it shrinks the galaxy to me, and although it's dynamite for a lot of fans, it rubs me the wrong way in the same way Boba Fett being "the best and most famous Bounty Hunter in the galaxy" rubs me the wrong way. A galaxy is a big place. I can't name the best or most famous soldier/plumber/police officer in London, let alone England, Europe or Earth. The galaxy's not a street where everyone knows each other's names, and in Legions of 100,000+ warriors, I'd rather focus on other characters.  

 

I don't think it's a bad thing when the other authors do it - and like I said, fans tend to love this stuff, and they're wildly popular characters; people want (and deserve) to know their origin stories, so I honestly have no gripes when my friends and colleagues tell these tales - but it's just not my personal bag. And if I added to it (as I'm in a pretty obvious position where I could) it'd be a tidal wave. 

 

I never mention Talos, and the Covenant of Blood is just one ship name in a list. I've said a squillion times before, both here and on my blog, that I'm not one for making my 40K characters have serious cameos. The most you're likely to get out of me is a vague allusion, or a ship name among many others.   

 

On my blog, I recently banged on about this very topic, in terms of the Heresy series and my Black Legion/Night Lords series:

 

 

"But tying stuff really close together is actually something I rarely do, in the 30K to 40K divide, and I’m in no rush to make any references between the Heresy series and the Black Legion series. Obviously, there’ll need to be some for realism, but they’re separate deals, and I like to keep them that way. The only frontloading I’ve done for the Warmaster Chronicles at all is the short story ‘Extinction’, which was me doing something different for a change, and trying to write a trailer of sorts, just for kicks. None of those characters are even in the novel (for obvious reasons) and the main character in the series isn’t even in ‘Extinction’. Nor, incidentally, are any of the other principal characters, with the exception of Abaddon. So you can probably see I’m keeping all Black Legion stuff on the down-low for now. It’ll come when it comes. It doesn’t need frontloading. I don’t need to write about Horus and the Sons of Horus now, to prime the Black Legion series. Trust me, that will carry its own weight. It’s the Traitor Legions fighting each other in Hell, before rising to become the threat we all know them as in 40K. It doesn’t need me capering through the HH series and doing prologue novels: the Black Legion’s prologue is the Heresy itself. That’ll serve nicely.

As for self-references, I usually avoid them. Writing so much Chaos stuff means I’m probably in the easiest position to have that level of crossover between characters who were there at the Heresy and still around in 40K, but that’s not really my angle. Dan was comfortable making Enuncia show up in the Heresy as well as his 40K Inquisitor stuff (and it worked great), but I’m not so keen on tying things that closely together with my own work. I like the distance. I’m already a little uneasy at the fact I’ll need to sneak major Warmaster Chronicles (I really like that term – thanks, dude) characters into the Heresy series, just so they’re shown somewhere in the background, rather than exploding out of the unrealistic tides of nowhere. I might have Telemachon mentioned in a scene where the Emperor’s Children show up, or Inaros with the Thousand Sons. But that’s it, at this stage.

Part of the reason it’s not my angle is that I’m trying to show a greater number of Traitor characters that actually die, that aren’t around in 40K, because from my perspective there’s enough focus on the main 40K Big Bads. If none of the Red Team die in the HH series, then they’d win the war. So the point of a character like Argel Tal is that he’s not around in 40K. He’s a major character in the 30K era, but he dies in the heresy. The Traitor Legions lose, after all. They need to take real casualties.

And another part of the reason is that I just get uncomfortable with too many heavy-handed references, as it makes the universe feel too small. Like how Boba Fett is the “greatest bounty hunter in the galaxy.” Uh. Okay. I’m not really sure if that takes into account the size of a galaxy, and the number of planets in it. I can’t name the greatest soldier/bounty hunter/plumber in one city, let alone a nation, a world, a solar system, a subsector, a segmentum, or a galaxy… but whatever. Showing a spread of warships, and naming one of them as the Covenant of Blood? I like that. That’s real. Having Talos show up in a Heresy-era Night Lords novel would a bit too much for me, similar to having a major Black Legion series character being front and centre in the Heresy series. There are other important characters, tens of thousands of them, that don’t get the airtime. Some of them will rise and shine, too."

[Xenith]

A-D-Pwned.

[A D-B]

I totally love Kol, but kinda felt like I had to chime in there. 

 

Excuse typos - gluing Space Wpolves, typing on the iPad, while fending the 11-month-old son away with my foot. 

[Ammonius]

Well that was the fear before Angel Exterminatus was printed. As it is, if the blog is anything to go by then one of the editors specifically asked for this and Anthoney Reynolds simply obliged. It's not like Prince of Crows where A D-B just mentions the Covenant of Blood and I think even Talos specifically during his time as an Apothecary. This is story is most likely going to be like Angel Exterminatus, "here is how so-and-so from 40k became as messed up in the head as he is."

Just read the blog post you mention, and while I now feel that everyone'e heart is in the right place, my concerns remain. Of course, I won't know for sure until I read  Dark Heart, but I hope that what we see is in fact character progression and not (this seems harsh but it's the word I'm thinking for Angel Exterminatus) recycling.

[T0MMY]

TBH I think you're all (Ammonius, Kol and ADB) singing from the same hymn-sheet here. Yeah, I get excited when a book comes out when it's got one of my fave characters in, but it really needs to be in a series. Cameos may be amusing (and potentially fluffy in some respects - as I said, there were A LOT of guys fighting in the emperor's palace (isn't it the size of a continent or something?)) but pretty unnecessary with the billion nameless others that can be used. I'm yet to get my hands on Angel Exterminatus so I'll reserve my right to glorify/moan about it when I have. I'm most excited about Betrayer though in truth (did I mention my World Eaters?) so you better have got it right Mr D-B!

[Brother Dakath]

Tommy, your excitement for Betrayer is well placed, IMHO.  I have read it and I enjoyed it immensely. I couldn't put it down until I finished it.

[Ammonius]

Agreed, I have already read Betrayer twice and it's great. Great.

[Kol Saresk]

A D-B: Sorry, I didn't mean to say that Talos had gotten his own little scene and everything. I just remembered the one-liner mentioning the Covenant of Blood and for some reason I was just rememberig something similar with something like "the apocatheries of the tenth Company" or something like. So I do apologize for misrepresenting you.

 

Ammonius: I do feel that your concerns should be there simply because this is a story that will directly feature a 40k character in a 30k setting and is still supposed to be a 30k story that just happens to feature a 40k character. We have two semi-precedents: The one-liner of the Covenant and then Angel Exterminatus.

 

Between the two, Angel Exterminatus relates the most. And that was supposed to be a similar situation of a 30k story about Perturabo that just happened to feature several 40k characters(not counting Lucius and Bile). Now, while it was a good story, it failed in that one regard. So much of the story seemed(to me) to be devoted to the sole purpose of explainig the beginnings of characters who were going to die anyway and it just seemed that Perturabo's story just seemed to get dragged along rather than being the feature preview. It did show who Perturabo was as a Primarch, but it did nothing to show his beginnings. I still don't know why Olympia went rogue. Was it Perturabo's father turned the planet? Was it someone else? Was it just some sort of extra-planetary influence that happens to remain unknown to this day? Or was it something happened and Horus overexaggerated the situation to Perturabo and caused him to go in swinging?

 

Although I would like to know just what happened...

 

But still, I do see reason for concern. Anthoney Reynolds says that this is suppose to be a 30k story that IIRC will be showing the direct aftermath of Calth and that Marduk just happens to one of the main characters. I hope this is what happens. Like A D-B said, it's murky waters. Now, since it is Anthoney Reynolds, I don't doubt that it will be a good story either way, much like Angel Exterminatus. I just hope that it achieves that one goal where Angel Exterminatus failed.

[A D-B]

A D-B: Sorry, I didn't mean to say that Talos had gotten his own little scene and everything.

 

No worries, dude. Enough people ask me for that, anyway. I was just posting to minimise confusion on a subject dear to my cold, black heart.

 

P.S. And because babysitting is boring when Alexander is teething.

 

P.P.S. Actually, technically it's parenting when it's your own kid, I guess, not babysitting. That says bad things about my psychology.

[Ammonius]

But still, I do see reason for concern. Anthoney Reynolds says that this is suppose to be a 30k story that IIRC will be showing the direct aftermath of Calth and that Marduk just happens to one of the main characters. I hope this is what happens. Like A D-B said, it's murky waters. Now, since it is Anthoney Reynolds, I don't doubt that it will be a good story either way, much like Angel Exterminatus. I just hope that it achieves that one goal where Angel Exterminatus failed.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I know that I will be buying Dark Heart on the strength of the earlier Word Bearer books, so it's a win for Black Library no matter what I think