why would you ever take a wolf lord?

[irwit]

Hi all

 

Now I'll start by saying I always look for best bang for buck. I also love a cool looking model. So a wolf lord tooled up leading my army is ideal. It looks cool and can dish out some serious hurt in cc. However points wise its easily reaching 200pts.

 

Well for me I no longer look at wolf lord for this, I now go for either twc or lone wolf. Check out comparison.

 

Wolf lord in tda, chain fist, shield, eternal warrior. .210 points

 

Lone wolf with same but also fnp and rerolls to hit vs t5 or more? 85pts

 

A couple less attacks but with rerolls to hit theres not a huge amount in it here really?

 

OK so next, a lord on a wolf.

 

Well load out can vary but your base start are.

 

Lord on tw, 145pts

 

Twc, 50 points.

 

The lord gives you 1 extra attack at higher initiative and 1 extra wound. All for triple the points cost!

 

So for anyone thinking they cannot find points for a wolf lord or currently use one? Maybe worth trying my ideas here and see if that extra initiative and wound is really worthy the 100 or so points :)

[Dam13n]

I can't help but agree, for most things there are cheaper options, and seeing as Wolf Priests and Rune Priests are so good as HQs, the poor Wolf Lord isn't likely to get much of a look in.  (Let alone the WGBL, who is even less competitive compared to the Priests)

 

The only reason I might take one is a Thunderwolf Lord with 2+/3++ and eternal warrior to lead a unit of TwC adding much needed armour to what is (essentially) an already expensive deathstar/bullet magnet.

 

This version of the Lord will dish out hurt but (before weapon and other upgrades) comes in at 230pts.  The same cost as 4 TWC with 1 Storm Shield.

 

Also, you're unlikely to benefit from the bonus initiative as you should be giving said lord a power fist or thunder hammer for S10 AP2 close combat.

 

I do have a TwL with the above load out (Hammer, Shield, Runic Armour, Thunderwolf) purely because it looks cool, but the chances of me fielding him in a regular game is pretty much 0%.

 

Laterz...

[skeletoro]

I don't think the lone wolf is necessarily the best comparison (they don't have any easy transport options, cannot attach themselves to units, etc etc) but yeah, wolf lords do seem pretty expensive.

 

That said, it's really quite hard to quantify their value. For example, how many points is IC status worth? They can challenge, but then, they can BE challenged. How good is Lo,S!? How good are precision strikes? I'd say they're extremely good, but I don't know how to assign a points value to them. An example of this difficulty is the comparison between Bjorn and a contemptor. Against a unit with a hidden power fist, the contemptor may run into major issues. Bjorn, on the other hand, could challenge a squad leader or IC (likely winning against the vast majority of ICs thanks to his AV13 and init 3 instant-death AP2) and otherwise gets to make precision strikes (giving him a fighting chance of eliminating hidden fists from the equation before they get to strike back). But is he worth the extra points? I don't know how to answer this question...

[Blacksad]

lords should (imo) always carry 2 specialist weapons and a belt. and they should ride a wolfy.

[Vash113]

Frankly I don't get the comparison. Comparing an HQ to Elites or Fast Attack slots? It is not like you can take a Lone Wolf or Thunderwolf in replacement for an HQ.

 

Now compared to the other HQ choices the Wolf Lord is frankly not that more expensive, the Lord, Wolf Priest and Rune Priest are all 100 points base and have largely the same cost, the difference comes in equipment. However for the same base points the Wolf Lord has a higher initiative, an extra wound and two more base attacks, also to be precise the Wolf Lord has a higher weapon skill and ballistic skill. If you don't want an expensive Wolf Lord, or any HQ for that matter, don't take one. Take a Battle Leader for 30 points less with no upgrades and then max out on Thunderwolves, Lone Wolves or whatever else you want.

[Emptyedens]

I have to agree with OP. I have a really nicely painted and modeled Wolf Lord who looks like the cover of the codex but I have yet to use him. In my lists he just doesn't have any synergy with the rest of my army. I think the comparison with a Lone Wolf is a fair one even though the LW is not an HQ as he can fill the same role that the WL does. For the same points I can get a Rune Priest and a LW and they'll compliment each other. I really want to use my WL, I just can't see a way too.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Two reasons:

 

1) Deny your enemy "Slay the Warlord" - nothing in the codex is tougher than a 2+/3++ Wolf Lord, especially on a Thunderwolf (and 2 cheap ablative wounds in FW to boot), and especially with Saga of the Bear.

 

2) The Personal warlord table probably has the best synergy with the Wolf Lord of any SW IC / warlord trait combination.

 

That, and they are just freaking cool. They embody a lethal weapon, and do it better than normal Captains do, even if its pricier in the process.

[Bikeninja]

I have always taken wolf lords in my lists.  And ususally have done well with them.  While 6th Edition may not be the HtH edition my Lords are still getting there points back in game after game.  I am currently running 2 on bikes with a small unit of Swiftclaws.  So far they have performed well.  Shooty armies and throwing alot ( and I mean alot) of fire into those guys and they soak it well thus far.  Mine run about 250 points a piece.  Would run a Wolf army without them.

[irwit]

Frankly I don't get the comparison. Comparing an HQ to Elites or Fast Attack slots? It is not like you can take a Lone Wolf or Thunderwolf in replacement for an HQ.

 

Now compared to the other HQ choices the Wolf Lord is frankly not that more expensive, the Lord, Wolf Priest and Rune Priest are all 100 points base and have largely the same cost, the difference comes in equipment. However for the same base points the Wolf Lord has a higher initiative, an extra wound and two more base attacks, also to be precise the Wolf Lord has a higher weapon skill and ballistic skill. If you don't want an expensive Wolf Lord, or any HQ for that matter, don't take one. Take a Battle Leader for 30 points less with no upgrades and then max out on Thunderwolves, Lone Wolves or whatever else you want.

I don't get why it matters? If you see it as a single model that you want to cause maximum damage in combat then I think they are pretty good comparison.

 

Also you can use the same model to represent either options.

[Dam13n]

@Bikeninja - seriously? 2x250pt bike lords, that's 500pts into HQ, how many points do you play? because that's a huge points sink for 2 models that will struggle to make their points back against a half decent opponent.

 

The problem I have is that a Rune Priest is almost a dead cert for my army (130pts - TA,CotS) and that all the HQ I need most of the time (unless I'm running allies).  This is because bodies count for more than anything.  I can hold more objectives and dish out more ranged firepower, yet still pack a punch in combat (thanks to WGPL in TA and 1 MotW + Wolf Banner in each Hunter squad)

 

This makes irwit's comparisons viable for me, a Lone Wolf will outperform (for the points) a TA Wolf Lord (I could take 2 for the same cost) and a unit of TwC will outperform a Tw Lord for the same points cost.  True they won't have a 2+ save anywhere, but thanks to beasts ignoring terrain, they should at least have a 4+cover (for the models without a shield) most of the time.  Plus, you'll have 8 wounds (4 TwC), 16 base attacks - (assuming 1 fist and 1 shield) that's 14 S5 rending attacks (inc 2CCW bonuses) and 4 at S10 AP2, going up to 17+5 on the charge.  They can't be challenged so the fist is hidden as a further bonus.

 

True a Tw Lord with 2+/3++, SotB and 2 FW will be a survivable Warlord, but he costs loads, so you're losing out on more troops, which you could easily hide a cheaper HQ in.  At the end of the day, it's often troops that win battles (objectives, linebreaker) rather than expensive HQs (at least in my experience).  So taking HQs which augment those troops is better than taking a stand-alone hardcase that will just draw fire.

 

Finally, with the changes to preferred enemy, Wolf Priests have become seriously good as unit buffers.  A WP + WG w Combi-plasmas in a Pod will ruin anyone's day, on turn 1.  Plus, you could swap their CCW for a second Combi-weapon (flamer/melta/2nd plasma) making them nicely versatile and always a threat.

[irwit]

You take a wolf lord to create a powerhouse cc monster.  Well a standard TWC with frost blade is exactly that,   give him a storm shield if you really want but I don't think that it is worth the points,  and you have a fast moving high T multi wound model dishing out 6 stength 6 ap3 attacks on the charge.  Pretty much what your wolf lord is going to do,  but far less points.     

 

Same with your lone wolf in TDA,  slightly less mobile yes but still a complete beast in combat again for half points.  

 

So Just because it says "TWC" or "Lone Wolf" in the codex,  doesnt mean you cannot model yourself an awesome wolf lord model and move and use it in exactly the same way on the table but just doesnt take up so much of your points allocation. 

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I hope they change this, since the fluff is a about the supadupa heroes

[Ozeryk_Sleipnijr]

I hope they change this, since the fluff is a about the supadupa heroes

[greysquigg]

Thunderwolf lords are really scary once they get into combat.

I was running mine with a thunder-hammer and a storm-shield, which was dope back in 5th edition. Now I'm looking at frost blade/powerfist/belt of russ. 

 

 

GS

[irwit]

Thunderwolf lords are really scary once they get into combat.

I was running mine with a thunder-hammer and a storm-shield, which was dope back in 5th edition. Now I'm looking at frost blade/powerfist/belt of russ. 

 

 

GS

But what is so much more scary than a standard TWC with similar equipment ?   |You are still moving fast,  having high toughness,  and dishing out a huge amount of attacks?  

 

You are paying over double the amount of points for your lord vs standard TWC.  

[dswanick]

Thunderwolf lords are really scary once they get into combat.

I was running mine with a thunder-hammer and a storm-shield, which was dope back in 5th edition. Now I'm looking at frost blade/powerfist/belt of russ. 

 

 

GS

Go with Wolf Claw/Power Fist - same capabilities, but you get the +1A for two Specialist weapons.

[Dam13n]

@Greysquigg - if you're thinking of running that you'd be better off with a wolfclaw-powerfist combo because they are both specialist weapons (so you'll get +1 attack).

 

mathammer:

 

FB-PF - 4A basic, +1 for Tw (+1 Charge) = 5(6)A

using either weapon - hit on 3s (WTN) = 3.67(4) hits on average

Using FB - S6 so assuming MEQ or worse - wound on 2s = 3.05(3.33) wounds at S6 AP3

Using PF - S10 - wound on 2s (unless T9 or better) = 3.05(3.33) wounds at S10 AP2

so on average he'll kill 3 MEQ or (if using Fist) TEQ with no real benefit from charging.

 

WC-PF - 4A basic +1 for Tw +1 2SpW (+1 Charge) = 6(7)A

Using WC to reroll hits = 5.33(6.22) hits

- S5 - Wounding on 3s (vs MEQ) = 3.55(4.15) wounds at S5 AP3

Using WC to re-roll wounds = 4(4.67) hits

- S5 - Wounding on 3s w. re-roll (vs MEQ) = 3.55(4.15) wounds at S5 AP3

Using PF = 4(4.67) hits

- S10 - Wounding on 2s = 3.33(3.88) wounds at S10 AP2

so on average he'll kill 4 MEQ (using claw, rounding off) or 3/4 TEQ (using fist, rounding off)

 

So mathematically a better choice and comes in at 5 points cheaper.  (note:  by TEQ I mean T4 2+ (ignoring ++ save to keep things simple))

 

However the trade off in survivability vs having a shield is still something to consider, especially as the difference between a 4++ and a 3++ is only 5 points, albeit at the cost of that 1 bonus attack.

 

Still, you'd be better off with another unit of TwC for the points cost at any rate.

 

Laterz...

[irwit]

or for the same points  ( or very close) ,  5 twc no options.  

 

10 wounds and on the charge you get 30 strength 5 rending attacks

 

So if 20 hit then at least 3 of these attacks are ap2.    Except your ap2 hits are striking first  :)   

[Squark]

Complex Mathhammer really ought to be done with a proper Bell curve. Otherwise you don't get the full picture.

 

 

I think the real issue is that what Marines want is a force multiplier for an HQ choice, not a Close Combat monster. The only codexes where you still see "captains" showing up are Codex Marines for biker armies (Because you need the Captain for bikers to work), Black Templars (Because the Emperor's Champion is Mandatory), and Chaos Space Marines (For cult Marines as troops. Also, Juggernaught lords can bring 9-15 S6 AP 2 at innitiative attacks).

[Dam13n]

I wasn't going for complex, just simple averages.

 

Given that we've slipped somewhat towards TwC:

@ Irwit, the problem there is that TwC are WS4 so against MEQ you're hitting on 4s not 3s, so you're looking at 15 hits rather than 20 (on average) which would get 2.5 rends and 7.5 AP- wounds (again on average) which would kill 5 MEQ (ave), not bad, but not great either (a 250pt combat unit only killing ~75pts of Marines on the charge).  Plus, not taking a fist drops your effectiveness vs Vehicles/Monstrous Creatures and no Shield makes you vulnerable to AP3 (which will invariably be at base Initiative)

 

I still agree they are a better choice for the points vs a Lord, but they need to be tooled for the job of getting to combat and then killing stuff when they get there.  Seeing as MEQ makes up the majority of armies (due to popularity + diversity (SM, SW, BA, DA, GK, BT, CSM and Immortal heavy Necrons)) it does make the obvious basis for determining effectiveness.

 

True, naked TwC will chew up Guard etc. and spit them out, if they reach combat.  But then again, so will a unit of Skyclaws, who would do the Job cheaper, and can have a Priest to buff them on the way in (Rune or Wolf).

 

Bringing back to topic:

 

Regardless, a Lord on his own won't survive long so that expensive TwL will need a unit of TwC to accompany anyway (meaning a 500pt (minimum) deathstar with no redundancy when they get shot to pieces).  Of course he could join a unit of Fenrisian Wolves, but then he's down to majority T4 or a unit of Swiftclaws, but then he loses run (and they lose turbo-boost) making them slower.

 

It's a shame that Wolf Lords aren't FOC altering as then they would be worth taking (eg a Bike Lord making Swiftclaws troops etc.)  and this feeds into what Squark is saying.  A force multiplier trumps a CC monster most of the time.

 

Laterz...

[Black Marshal]

given the math and the logic behind price of the hq i completly agree that tactically u should take more else where instead of dropping 200+ points into a single guy.

 

that having been said i think the best reason to take a wolf lord and the reason i have a wolf lord leading my thunderwolf cav is

 

THE RULE OF COOL

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

@Black Marshal: You beat me to it.

 

The reason everybody should have 1 (and only 1 outside of Apoc) Wolf Lord is because he's awesome.

 

He's the guy, in a company of heroes and monster slayers, that leads the charge.

Rules wise he may not be the best option, but think about it: He's the guy who stares hell in the face and grins.

 

The more important question is why would you never take a Wolf Lord?

 

WLK

[viddar]

I tend to run mine on a thunderwolf, with runic armour, thunderhammer, stormshield, Wolf tooth necklace, and saga of the beastslayer. Its not the most point effective setup but like Black Marshal and Wolf Lord Kieran said rule of cool is important.  

[Vash113]

Frankly I don't get the comparison. Comparing an HQ to Elites or Fast Attack slots? It is not like you can take a Lone Wolf or Thunderwolf in replacement for an HQ.

Now compared to the other HQ choices the Wolf Lord is frankly not that more expensive, the Lord, Wolf Priest and Rune Priest are all 100 points base and have largely the same cost, the difference comes in equipment. However for the same base points the Wolf Lord has a higher initiative, an extra wound and two more base attacks, also to be precise the Wolf Lord has a higher weapon skill and ballistic skill. If you don't want an expensive Wolf Lord, or any HQ for that matter, don't take one. Take a Battle Leader for 30 points less with no upgrades and then max out on Thunderwolves, Lone Wolves or whatever else you want.

I don't get why it matters? If you see it as a single model that you want to cause maximum damage in combat then I think they are pretty good comparison.

Also you can use the same model to represent either options.

It is not an apt comparison because it is ignoring a great deal of what you get for said points. They are not fulfilling the same role, they do not have the same effect on the table, and their abilities, capabilities, special rules and stats are all considerably different. Just because one is cheaper, does not necessarily make it better.

You take a wolf lord to create a powerhouse cc monster. Well a standard TWC with frost blade is exactly that, give him a storm shield if you really want but I don't think that it is worth the points, and you have a fast moving high T multi wound model dishing out 6 stength 6 ap3 attacks on the charge. Pretty much what your wolf lord is going to do, but far less points.

Same with your lone wolf in TDA, slightly less mobile yes but still a complete beast in combat again for half points.

So Just because it says "TWC" or "Lone Wolf" in the codex, doesnt mean you cannot model yourself an awesome wolf lord model and move and use it in exactly the same way on the table but just doesnt take up so much of your points allocation.

On the contrary, it is a fraction of what the Wolf Lord can do. Not least of which is the rare and extremely important IMO Initiative 5. Now to begin with the Wolf Lord strikes faster than either the Lone Wolf or the Thunderwolf Cavalry, this is important because the Wolf Lord, unlike the other two, has the chance to eliminate dangerous enemies in close combat, and reduce the number of incoming attacks, before a significant number of enemies in the game can strike at him. This contributes noticeably to survivability over pretty much any other unit in the Codex. Next the Wolf Lord is a character, unlike either the Thunderwolves or the Lone Wolf, meaning that not only can he issue and accept challenges to eliminate squad leaders and champions, he also has access to precision strikes. If he rolls a 6 to hit in close combat, and with 5 or 6 attacks on the charge depending on equipment, the chances are good of at least one, then he can assign the wound to any model engaged with him in close combat. This means the Wolf Lord can eliminate squad leaders and/or special close combat weapons before they have the chance to strike. On top of which the Wolf Lord has access to the warlord tables, which can allow him to do all kinds of funky things neither the Thunderwolf Cavalry nor the Lone Wolf can do, while yes other HQs can do the same, as I've mentioned, they are the same base cost as the Wolf Lord but with noticeably lower stats and less wargear options.

Now compare that to a Thunderwolf which has a lower weapon skill, lower initiative, less wounds, worse armor save, lower leadership. Thunderwolves cannot take wolf tail talismans so they hit on 4s against marines, or worse against characters and certain other units. Their saves cannot be improved, they aren't characters, so they cannot issue or receive challenges, cannot make precise shots or precise strikes. This means that while yes, a Thunderwolf can put out a decent number of strength 5 attacks, it is nowhere near as durable as a well equipped Wolf Lord, lacking either a 2+ save, 3 wounds or potential immunity from Instant Death, nor does the Thunderwolf have the capability to issue or accept challenges, strikes at a lower initiative and hit less often. Particularly against characters.

Then when looking at the Lone Wolf, which again has lower weapon skill, less wounds, lower initiative, and half the attacks. Not to mention the Lone Wolf cannot join a unit, and is not a character, so again cannot pick out targets in close combat with precision strikes, and cannot issue or receive challenges.

So frankly, I just don't see the distinct advantages with Thunderwolves or Lone Wolves over the Wolf Lord.

Thunderwolf lords are really scary once they get into combat.

I was running mine with a thunder-hammer and a storm-shield, which was dope back in 5th edition. Now I'm looking at frost blade/powerfist/belt of russ.

GS

But what is so much more scary than a standard TWC with similar equipment ? |You are still moving fast, having high toughness, and dishing out a huge amount of attacks?

You are paying over double the amount of points for your lord vs standard TWC.

But again the comparison is ignoring anything but the attacks, speed and toughness, which are not the only factors to the points cost. For the points the Wolf Lord comes with warlord traits, character status which brings precision strikes, precision shots, the ability to issue or receive challenges, higher initiative, higher weapon skill, higher leadership, an additional wound, sagas (can't believe I forgot to mention those earlier...)

or for the same points ( or very close) , 5 twc no options.

10 wounds and on the charge you get 30 strength 5 rending attacks

So if 20 hit then at least 3 of these attacks are ap2. Except your ap2 hits are striking first

Alright, a decent number of wounds and attacks, but Initiative 4, weapon skill 4. So only 10 of those attacks will hit on average against MEQs and the ap2 is unnecessary over a standard power weapon or frost sword against most enemies. Not to mention MEQs will be striking back simultaneously and 3+ save means anything but a power maul is going to be denying their armor saves and no invulnerable saves.

Lastly and most importantly IMO, as others have said, is the rule of cool. Yes you could represent a Thunderwolf or Lone Wolf as a Wolf Lord but that strikes me as an injustice to the sheer awesomeness that a Wolf Lord is supposed to be. When you get down to it, the Warlord of your army, aka the Wolf Lord, is representing "you" on the tabletop, why spare any expense on representing yourself in whatever way you wish whether it is necessarily the most points effective option or not?

Why I've started running a Terminator Wolf Lord over a Runic Armor one, just cause I think Terminator armor is boss.

[viddar]

Lone wolves are considered characters (just not independent ones its in appendix in the brb) so they can issue challenges.  That said i agree with most of what you said.