why would you ever take a wolf lord?

[eyeslikethunder]

I agree with vash I find the leader ship of TWC of ld8 is a major weakness meaning they much more likely to run and at 3d6 the chance they will reach the table edge is higher

A wolf lord makes them much less vulnerable with ld 10 and 2+ save

The extra combat power should not be under estimated

[Hear da Lamentation]

Interesting thread.

 

I have changed my army quite a lot since 6th.  Dropped my 3 rhinos and made a footslogging army, with a really solid fast attack unit.  (1500point games).

 

For the FA choice, I am playing with either a TWC pack with TW Lord, or a big biker pack with biker Lord (and biker RP).  I have also tried the TWC without the Lord a few times.

 

This is what I find.  The Lord's pure SURVIVABILITY (with 2+,3++ and eternal warrior) makes the unit he is in MASSIVELY more effective.  As has been said, challenges are a really important part of combat now ... and our decked out Lord has got to be one of the hardest things in the game ....

 

Without a Lord in the unit, they become marines - and are almost as easy to kill as marines.  Meet the wrong thing (insta-killing, AP3 or better) and they will get massacred.  The Lord allows you to either take some of those nasty hits ... or challenge the nasty away from hitting your other troops.

 

The question I have been left with is the ability for someone to challenge HIM out of decent combat.  This IS an issue which needs to be looked at by anyone having a WolfLord.

[irwit]

Interesting thread.

 

I have changed my army quite a lot since 6th.  Dropped my 3 rhinos and made a footslogging army, with a really solid fast attack unit.  (1500point games).

 

For the FA choice, I am playing with either a TWC pack with TW Lord, or a big biker pack with biker Lord (and biker RP).  I have also tried the TWC without the Lord a few times.

 

This is what I find.  The Lord's pure SURVIVABILITY (with 2+,3++ and eternal warrior) makes the unit he is in MASSIVELY more effective.  As has been said, challenges are a really important part of combat now ... and our decked out Lord has got to be one of the hardest things in the game ....

 

Without a Lord in the unit, they become marines - and are almost as easy to kill as marines.  Meet the wrong thing (insta-killing, AP3 or better) and they will get massacred.  The Lord allows you to either take some of those nasty hits ... or challenge the nasty away from hitting your other troops.

 

The question I have been left with is the ability for someone to challenge HIM out of decent combat.  This IS an issue which needs to be looked at by anyone having a WolfLord.

 

 

Have you tried running TWC AND your biker unit without the lord?   Should come to similar(ish) points and surely you then get best of both worlds and your opponent has 2 threats to decide between. 

[Wispy]

Vash pretty much nails the TKO. Higher initiatives, leadership, and weapon skill deliver important trickle down effects that enhance whatever squad he is attached to. Warlord and IC rules further enhance his flexibility and potency while offering even more synergies for the troops that surround him. Other wargear and saga options contribute to this trend.

 

These different things may seem like tiny advantages when viewed seperately, but all together it has an overwhelming trickle-down effect that I think an average Lone Wolf or TWC can't compete with.  Simply, the Wolf Lord worth more than a sum of his parts. I never leave home without one and have never regretted using one.

 

edit: Of course, these points come at the expense of something else. I find I'm usually skimping on squad upgrades later (power firsts, WG) in favour of getting the highest number of troops along with a highly mobile, agressive and effective HQ. I feel this is a very competivie balance.

[Valerian]

 

 

Next the Wolf Lord is a character, unlike either the Thunderwolves or the Lone Wolf, meaning that not only can he issue and accept challenges to eliminate squad leaders and champions, he also has access to precision strikes.

 

 

Then when looking at the Lone Wolf, which again has lower weapon skill, less wounds, lower initiative, and half the attacks. Not to mention the Lone Wolf cannot join a unit, and is not a character, so again cannot pick out targets in close combat with precision strikes, and cannot issue or receive challenges.

 

Vash, you're wrong on this point.  The Lone Wolf is a character, so he can both precision strike, and issue challenges (at which he excels, by the way).  Otherwise, your analysis is on point.

 

Valerian

[Wispy]

Lone Wolves are rad but are just flat out too imobile.

[viddar]

.....

 

The question I have been left with is the ability for someone to challenge HIM out of decent combat.  This IS an issue which needs to be looked at by anyone having a WolfLord.

 

Honestly for the most part it isn't too big of deal, most of the time you'll beat whatever challenges you, and if they're stuck in a little longer they actually tend to be safer cause they'll be engaged during your opponents shooting phase.

 

Lone Wolves are rad but are just flat out too imobile.

 

I really haven't had much of a problem in that respect, I deploy very aggressively with them, and they either get to target or force them to maneuver around them which helps the rest of army. That said I could see diminishing returns on each lone wolf.

[Squark]

The issue isn't that the Wolf Lord doesn't force multiply the squad he's in at all (although it isn't much), it's the question of being able to get more force for his cost. A wolf lord on a thunderwolf costs as much as a unit of thunderwolf cavalry. A wolf Lord on a thunderwolf mount leading thunderwolves can only kill one unit a turn. 2 units of thunderwolves can wipe out two units. That's the contention. What about 2 lone wolves vs. a Thunderwolf lord? The Lone wolves can compensate for the loss of mobility by being in two different places, and both have comparable durability to one wolf lord in most respects.

 

Also, compare

Wolf Lord -215 points

-Thunderwolf Mount, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Belt of Russ

 

 

to a Chaos lord on a Juggernaught (-175 points). The Latter moves just as fast, but gets more attacks (9-15! And he re-rolls to hit against, you know, the most common foes in the game), and they're at innitiative AP2. Sure, the Wolf Lord can get Runic Armor and Saga of the Bear, but you're now almost 100 points more expensive than the aforementioned Khorne lord, and he's still probably going to win combat.

[Hear da Lamentation]

 

Honestly for the most part it isn't too big of deal, most of the time you'll beat whatever challenges you, and if they're stuck in a little longer they actually tend to be safer cause they'll be engaged during your opponents shooting phase.

 

I agree, but I did recently have a combat with a unit of blood angels with 2 hq's and a saergent.  This kept my lord busy for 3 turns of the game .... basically most of it.  And the thunderwolves he was with - stuck in the same combat.  Hence my post .... 

 

Also - on the point of a Lord, I recently charged a unit of 5 genestealers and a broodlord with my TWC (pf, ss, basic).  My Lord had left the unit that round to attack his Hive Tyrant (another benefit of the Lord .... one powerful unit can become 2).  With some nasty psych powers on the broodlord (Nids are psych gods now) they wiped out my cavalry without me even rolling an attack dice.  That wouldn't have happened if I hadn't moved my Lord.  He could have challenged the Broodlord and took him out of the picture.

 

I do take the OPs point though  ... that you could have quite a lot more instead of the Lord (TWC with addons, or a fairly big biker group).  Still, for me, I am left feeling the Lord is not only fun to play, but is so incredibly multi-tasking, he is well, well worth it.

[viddar]

The issue isn't that the Wolf Lord doesn't force multiply the squad he's in at all (although it isn't much), it's the question of being able to get more force for his cost. A wolf lord on a thunderwolf costs as much as a unit of thunderwolf cavalry. A wolf Lord on a thunderwolf mount leading thunderwolves can only kill one unit a turn. 2 units of thunderwolves can wipe out two units. That's the contention. What about 2 lone wolves vs. a Thunderwolf lord? The Lone wolves can compensate for the loss of mobility by being in two different places, and both have comparable durability to one wolf lord in most respects.

 

Also, compare

Wolf Lord -215 points

-Thunderwolf Mount, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Belt of Russ

 

 

to a Chaos lord on a Juggernaught (-175 points). The Latter moves just as fast, but gets more attacks (9-15! And he re-rolls to hit against, you know, the most common foes in the game), and they're at innitiative AP2. Sure, the Wolf Lord can get Runic Armor and Saga of the Bear, but you're now almost 100 points more expensive than the aforementioned Khorne lord, and he's still probably going to win combat.

 

TWC with a lord that has a 2+ can stop alot of wounds that would get through normally (like taking a couple of missle hits), and there is nothing stopping the lord from spliting off and destroying another target.

 

So because a wolf lord is bad againist a khorne lord we shouldn't run one (and I think its closer than your admitting they won't always get the charge, and have a 16% of wounding themselves and becoming ws 1)?  By that logic should  I stop running greyhunters because of heldrakes (just as valid of a comparsion)?

 

 

 

 

Honestly for the most part it isn't too big of deal, most of the time you'll beat whatever challenges you, and if they're stuck in a little longer they actually tend to be safer cause they'll be engaged during your opponents shooting phase.

 

I agree, but I did recently have a combat with a unit of blood angels with 2 hq's and a saergent.  This kept my lord busy for 3 turns of the game .... basically most of it.  And the thunderwolves he was with - stuck in the same combat.  Hence my post .... 

 

Also - on the point of a Lord, I recently charged a unit of 5 genestealers and a broodlord with my TWC (pf, ss, basic).  My Lord had left the unit that round to attack his Hive Tyrant (another benefit of the Lord .... one powerful unit can become 2).  With some nasty psych powers on the broodlord (Nids are psych gods now) they wiped out my cavalry without me even rolling an attack dice.  That wouldn't have happened if I hadn't moved my Lord.  He could have challenged the Broodlord and took him out of the picture.

 

I do take the OPs point though  ... that you could have quite a lot more instead of the Lord (TWC with addons, or a fairly big biker group).  Still, for me, I am left feeling the Lord is not only fun to play, but is so incredibly multi-tasking, he is well, well worth it.

 

Right but in the BA situation if you got both hqs you at least got kill the warlord and probably killed at least 300+ points with the unit thats pretty good.

[Squark]

 

The issue isn't that the Wolf Lord doesn't force multiply the squad he's in at all (although it isn't much), it's the question of being able to get more force for his cost. A wolf lord on a thunderwolf costs as much as a unit of thunderwolf cavalry. A wolf Lord on a thunderwolf mount leading thunderwolves can only kill one unit a turn. 2 units of thunderwolves can wipe out two units. That's the contention. What about 2 lone wolves vs. a Thunderwolf lord? The Lone wolves can compensate for the loss of mobility by being in two different places, and both have comparable durability to one wolf lord in most respects.

 

Also, compare

Wolf Lord -215 points

-Thunderwolf Mount, Wolf Claw, Power Fist, Belt of Russ

 

 

to a Chaos lord on a Juggernaught (-175 points). The Latter moves just as fast, but gets more attacks (9-15! And he re-rolls to hit against, you know, the most common foes in the game), and they're at innitiative AP2. Sure, the Wolf Lord can get Runic Armor and Saga of the Bear, but you're now almost 100 points more expensive than the aforementioned Khorne lord, and he's still probably going to win combat.

 

TWC with a lord that has a 2+ can stop alot of wounds that would get through normally (like taking a couple of missle hits), and there is nothing stopping the lord from spliting off and destroying another target.

 

So because a wolf lord is bad againist a khorne lord we shouldn't run one (and I think its closer than your admitting they won't always get the charge, and have a 16% of wounding themselves and becoming ws 1)?  By that logic should  I stop running greyhunters because of heldrakes (just as valid of a comparsion)?

 

That wasn't what I meant at all. I'm  comparing the functionality of the two units, not the two of them in combat. It's more like saying "Vanilla Chaos Space Marines with bolt pistols, boltguns, and close combat aren't worth the extra points, because you're trying to do what Grey Hunters do, but worse and more expensively" Now, if our only HQ option was a wolf lord, than this would be a moot point (So, this is not the same as saying, "Storm Talons aren't as good as heldrakes, so Codex Marines shouldn't take them. Because everyone really needs fliers, and the Storm Talon is the only choice C:SM offers as of this moment). But since we can take great, much cheaper HQs like Wolf Priests and Rune Priests instead... The Wolf Lord is kind of... left out.

 

Other issues

*Sure, you can catch Krak missiles on your 2+ armor save- But you can also catch them with a storm shield.

-Wolf lord cost 270 points/ 3 wounds =90 points/wound (Saga of the Bear and Runic armor added to the above build, because you really, really can't run a Wolf Lord right smack dab in the front without them)

-Thunderwolf Cavalry with Storm Shield 80 points/2 wounds= 40 points/wound

A 2+ armor save compared to a 3+ invul save has twice the odds of passing... But you lose 90 points with that wound. That's a net loss compared to the storm shield. It's the same reason Wolf Guard catching bullets for Grey Hunters doesn't actually work (without warped dice, anyway)

*Yes, the wolf lord can split off from the thunderwolves. But now he has no one to kill the unit while hes busy in a challenge (except maybe a pair of fenrisian wolves, and 2 wolves vs. 10 tactical marines is not going to end well for the puppies), and you can only charge a unit in roughly the same area as the cavalry (Whereas two units of cavalry can be on opposite sides of the board).

[ulllyssies0110]

 As for me my 270pt Wolf Lord took out Belial, a unit of Termiesa & 2 Bike units. Because of this I won a game I was lossing up till that point. Any way for me psykers have allways been a mixed bag. It really depends on the way you play.

[toonarmy]

i think Wolf Lords are cool.  I don't run one but it doesn't complement my list.  I rely on my 2 RP's and my WP as they fit the style of my army.  in a CC orientated army i think a WL is s great decision.  Possibly paired with a cheap WP to get preferred enemy or another character to take challenges.

 

To be honest i think as codexes go we have one of the best when it comes to our options and all our options are relatively cheap.  

[montegue]

I was in a position to kill Typhus with mine yesterday, before we had to call the game for time. 2+/3+, Swinging a Frost Axe for S7 AP2, Hitting on 3s from Wolf Tooth necklace, wounding on 2's - he's absolutely brutal. Give him a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist and he simply kills almost everything automatically. I like the Thunder Hammer because of the look, even if it is more expensive. 

[eyeslikethunder]

If he has split off and is challenged he is likely to win killilng the one person who has the equipment to hurt him the sgt inthe first turn while the rest of unit wait to see who wins. But as he has caused 1 wound likely to not break the unit so keeping him safe in the enemy shooting phase .

Then break them in their assault phase due to wounds and reduced ld because they have lost the sgt

 

 

Now he free to set about the next unit

[eyeslikethunder]

Actually he works much better when catching wounds than a wolf guard
1) He has multiple wounds and eternal warrior

This means he can take a wound unlike the wolf guard and live and str 10 /force weapon wounds and live unlike the twc
The problem with wolf guard as bullet magnets is once they take a single wound they are dead taking their ld and cc power with them
I have regularly seen my wolf lord take manticore batteries that with the same rolls would have wiped both my twc off the board

[eyeslikethunder]

2) Los on 2+ and fen wolves
He is much more reliable at Los ing wounds than wolf guard and with a twc unit better choices. Obviously it has to go on the closest model so the art is to distribute the models equally to give a choice and with the choice of 2+, 3++,3+ and fen wolf you should have option to match the wound. As models get injured they rotated out of the firing line

[irwit]

I was in a position to kill Typhus with mine yesterday, before we had to call the game for time. 2+/3+, Swinging a Frost Axe for S7 AP2, Hitting on 3s from Wolf Tooth necklace, wounding on 2's - he's absolutely brutal. Give him a Thunder Hammer or Power Fist and he simply kills almost everything automatically. I like the Thunder Hammer because of the look, even if it is more expensive. 

Out of interest why do you give hi a frost axe over a power fist?  Same price arent they but fist would give you s10 vs s7,  both give you ap2?

[Blacksad]

looks cooler.

[irwit]

Personally I am modelling all my power axes being held by a powerfist.  That looks EVEN cooler and also allows me pre game to say,  hes equipeped witha powerfist but holding a normal axe,  OR,  he just has big hands but is wielding a  power axe.  

[daveclark890]

1 thing that has not really been brought up is the effectiveness of psychology.

 

The Thunder Lord is a monster who the enemy does not want to face so he will go to lengths to remove him!

 

Besides its a game and supposed to be fun!

[SamaNagol]

Thunder Lord isn't the scariest thing on the table. A Khorne Lord on a Bike won't mind having a go.

[ulllyssies0110]

Thunder Lord isn't the scariest thing on the table. A Khorne Lord on a Bike won't mind having a go.

I would love to put that to the test.

[irwit]

1 thing that has not really been brought up is the effectiveness of psychology.

 

The Thunder Lord is a monster who the enemy does not want to face so he will go to lengths to remove him!

 

I understand this but this isnt a debate on what's better,  TWL with a  unit of TWC ,  or a TWC cavelry unit.

 

Its what's better,   a TWL  or a unit of 5 TWC.    As that is what the points equivalent is.  

 

So to answer your question of psychology,   I would be much more concerned about a unit of 5 TWC than a single lord.  Mostly because no matter how survivable the lord is,  or how much damage he can dish out,    the TWC unit can take and give a considerable amount more!   It has 6 more wounds all at T5.   And dishes out 30 attacks on the charge all rending and has a hidden powerfist that cannot be challenged. 

[eyeslikethunder]

Really your 5 twc will take 7-8 railgun shots or 1 good vindicator shot to kill

the wolf lord will take 13-12 railguns or 3 good vindicator shots