why would you ever take a wolf lord?

[dswanick]

 

 

1 thing that has not really been brought up is the effectiveness of psychology.

 

The Thunder Lord is a monster who the enemy does not want to face so he will go to lengths to remove him!

 

I understand this but this isnt a debate on what's better,  TWL with a  unit of TWC ,  or a TWC cavelry unit.

 

Its what's better,   a TWL  or a unit of 5 TWC.    As that is what the points equivalent is.  

 

So to answer your question of psychology,   I would be much more concerned about a unit of 5 TWC than a single lord.  Mostly because no matter how survivable the lord is,  or how much damage he can dish out,    the TWC unit can take and give a considerable amount more!   It has 6 more wounds all at T5.   And dishes out 30 attacks on the charge all rending and has a hidden powerfist that cannot be challenged.

 

 

And can be flattened by a Vindicator pie-plate.

Can't hide behind a Rhino.

Not protected by 2+.

Not fully protected by 3++.

Has half the chance to Deny The Witch.

Can't issue challenges.

Can't strike at I5.

And fails a Leadership test on an unmodified 8.

 

I'm sorry but a TWC unit and a TWL are different units, with different roles and different purposes. Trying to directly compare the two assuming all situations and needs are identical is like comparing apples and thumbtacks.

[eyeslikethunder]

Really your 5 twc will take about 7-8 railgun shots the wolf lord will take 13-12 railguns

 

 

or 1 good/lucky vindicator shot could kill the squad the Lord will take 3 at least    statistically about 9 

 

 

The same will be true of force weapons grey knights anyone.
 

 

The point is his presence denies your opponent forces  the ability to use their best/most suitable weapons to defeat the squad. While providing high quality attacks

[irwit]

Ok,  all fair points.  However I was talking about the psychology and did refer to myself.  ie,  "I would be much more concerned"   I made no overriding,  This is better than that statements.  

 

Also if you go back to my original point.  Personally I was actually referring to a kind of "use you Warlord for half the cost" kind of argument.  

 

ThunderWolf lord =  big mean cc monster with High T value.  =   150 - 270pts

Single TWC model =  big mean cc monster with high T value.  =  50-100pts

 

Foot sloging Wolf lord =  cc monster =   100-200pts

Lone wolf = cc monster  =   50- 100pts.  

 

 

So its more a case of what you want your wolf lord to do ?  As he doesn't really force multiply,   he's a bit of a lone entity.  As are single TWC and Lone wolf.   So they play similar roles,  and are very comparable,  do similar damage output,  but are considerably less points giving you more points for other things or more of the same.  

 

I understand there are "some" thing a wolf lord can do that equivalent cannot,  but I don't think these outweigh the cost difference. 

[eyeslikethunder]

For me I prefer the alrounded combination of twc +twl which able can defeat a wider range of enemies and withstand a wider range of attacks. They also are more able to defeat the more elite units that other SW units struggle against. Therefore filling a capability gap in my list

I find pure twc struggle to cover the bases therefore have a variety of weaknesses clever opponents will exploit to defeat them. While 2 units are powerful i find against other elite units its hards to get both units in CC with them due the TWC large base size. Therefore its hard to get concentration of might I get with the TWL

The addition of a Twl fills these gaps
Meaning my twc are more flexible against a wider variety of armies. So for a all comers list I take a Twl. If I knew my opponents army/list I might consider 2 twc units

 

I have taken both builds and enjoyed playing with both.

[Wolf_Brother]

I just started back up after many years of absence and this very topic was the one I was stuck on. I'm happy to say the TWL supporters have won the debate in my mind.

 

Great topic and compelling points of view from both sides.

[Karack Blackstone]

I have been learning how to adjust my Wolves from Fifth to Sixth, and I'm noticing a few things, one general area of which applies to this topic.

 

As far as I can tell, the situational differences between a Wolf Lord, or more usually, a TWL, depends on army wide synergy.  Any version of the WL is meant to get into CC, in general.

 

A Wolf Priest or Rune Priest are the same price as a base cost WL to get into the game.  The stat differences and overall benefits of the WL over any other HQ option starts to, on an objective level, become similar to the effect of large gravitational field exerting stellar objects.  A properly kitted (T)WL can do so much for a force, that entire armies which are not properly outfitted to take down a (T)WL is often rather striking to watch unfold.  Those that are, however, can do some pretty significant damage; the two meeting is often a dice fest.

 

Points are, in essence, the logistical total of what it takes to keep any one model in the field.  A Dread is the same base price as as Vindicator, if I recall correctly.  The issue is, for the exact same value, and just a few points more, most HQ's, with different options, become available.  WP's are great if that is what one wants, same with RP's, as both fill different roles.

 

As the game is currently written, the compulsory requirements of the FOC leads to a very vital question: who's the leader?  From our Codex, we know a Wolf Lord is in charge, and a given section of a Great Company may be sent out, led by a different HQ Choice, to handle some fights that the entire GC is not needed for overall.

 

One Grey Hunter is, usually, the core of our Chapter's GC's in the field.

 

There is no one, quick and dirty way to decide how many GH's a WL is worth, or any other unit for that matter.  The issue I keep seeing come
up is, what kind of force does one want in the fight?  A WL at base cost is about six and two-thirds GH's, points wise.  The issue with this is, in a normal game, we can get at most 60 GH's, and at higher points games, 120 max.  If one wishes to put all their eggs in one basket, that is an option, however, not always the wisest option available.

 

The point I am trying to make is that the SW's have a logistical footprint that allows the army on the field to be as the WL (the player) wishes it to be, in terms of fighting ability.  Without knowing fully what the Codex Authors were thinking when figuring out what the SW Army List section would end up looking like for printing, points values are likely determined based upon Author determined factors as to how the army functions as a whole.  The SW's made bank on GH's, LF's, WP's and RP's in the 5th Ed. Codex.  Other options are there, however, bang for buck, or point for point, those four are simply ahead of the game when considering everything else.

 

While the OP's intent is good, the issue is that breaking things down into how many GH's one given unit costs seems like theorycrafting to me.  No SM Chapter, fully assembled, goes into the field with just one HQ and two Troops.  For the sake of the game, however, this is what must be present.  Points permitting, this may change.

 

A (T)WL by himself can do quite a bit with the right equipment, depending on the situation.  Two five man TWC packs kitted as wanted as opposed to a TWL leading one five man TWC is not quite so easy to compare, as there are many issues at the big picture level.

 

So, before I lose anyone else at this point, I feel it best to ask a question:  If a WL leads the Great Company according to the fluff, must a player have a WL for his GC?  One should at least have one in mind, for in the sagas that become the legacy of one's GC, there must be a WL in charge, that is directing the fighting as need be, on the field of battle.

 

A WP provides PE(type), a RP has powers and can take a CotS.

 

A WL is a walking problem, ready to beat face in and smile while taking whatever comes his way.

 

Options are provided by selecting each; knowing the way to victory is combining the options presented into effective fighting teams, both by themselves and as part of a larger force.

 

WH40K is basically Chess within Chess; what I mean is, take Chess, then make a second, smaller game of Chess, and put it into the bigger one, such that some pieces can combine with other pieces to affect the larger game in a different, usually more effective way.  For example, a WP leading a WGPL with kit attached to a 14 BC pack in a LRC as wanted can be quite dangerous.  The flipside, however, is using one's other units (Chess pieces) to get this massive thing to where it needs to be; without proper delivery, there's a points sink on the field.

 

I guess I'd call WH40K by the name Chess Level 2 at this point.

 

I hope this all makes sense to everyone reading, sorry if it does not.

[Bikeninja]

My current 1850 list has a Lord and a Battle Leader.  The Lord runs with Frost Blade, Runic Armor, Storm Shield, WTN, and a Bike  with Saga of the Bear....the Battle Leader has TH/SS Runic Armor, WTN,  Bike and Warrior Born.  The Escorted by a 4 man Swiftclaw unit.    The above 2 are hell carnage.   Yeah they are alot of points but man are they awesome to behold once they hit you.   They have endured whole Guard armies shooting at them and yet they still keep coming.  Never playing a game without a Lord ....never.

[viddar]

It's more like saying "Vanilla Chaos Space Marines with bolt pistols, boltguns, and close combat aren't worth the extra points, because you're trying to do what Grey Hunters do, but worse and more expensively" Now, if our only HQ option was a wolf lord, than this would be a moot point (So, this is not the same as saying, "Storm Talons aren't as good as heldrakes, so Codex Marines shouldn't take them. Because everyone really needs fliers, and the Storm Talon is the only choice C:SM offers as of this moment). But since we can take great, much cheaper HQs like Wolf Priests and Rune Priests instead... The Wolf Lord is kind of... left out.

 

Other issues

*Sure, you can catch Krak missiles on your 2+ armor save- But you can also catch them with a storm shield.

-Wolf lord cost 270 points/ 3 wounds =90 points/wound (Saga of the Bear and Runic armor added to the above build, because you really, really can't run a Wolf Lord right smack dab in the front without them)

-Thunderwolf Cavalry with Storm Shield 80 points/2 wounds= 40 points/wound

A 2+ armor save compared to a 3+ invul save has twice the odds of passing... But you lose 90 points with that wound. That's a net loss compared to the storm shield. It's the same reason Wolf Guard catching bullets for Grey Hunters doesn't actually work (without warped dice, anyway)

*Yes, the wolf lord can split off from the thunderwolves. But now he has no one to kill the unit while hes busy in a challenge (except maybe a pair of fenrisian wolves, and 2 wolves vs. 10 tactical marines is not going to end well for the puppies), and you can only charge a unit in roughly the same area as the cavalry (Whereas two units of cavalry can be on opposite sides of the board).

 

Once you start comparing units based on points it opens up a whole lot of comparsions, which is why its really compelling.

 

1) you have  a much better chance, second they can choose to have you take other wounds first to get past a 3++ with regular TWC, a lord puts a 2+ into the equation.

2) fenrisians wolves provides extra wounds really cheaply

3) on the 40pts wound you also have to factor in the 3+ save versus everything else

4) what if its a vehicle, a smaller squad, or what if they only have a couple of scoring units?

 

Ok,  all fair points.  However I was talking about the psychology and did refer to myself.  ie,  "I would be much more concerned"   I made no overriding,  This is better than that statements.  

 

Also if you go back to my original point.  Personally I was actually referring to a kind of "use you Warlord for half the cost" kind of argument.  

 

ThunderWolf lord =  big mean cc monster with High T value.  =   150 - 270pts

Single TWC model =  big mean cc monster with high T value.  =  50-100pts

 

Foot sloging Wolf lord =  cc monster =   100-200pts

Lone wolf = cc monster  =   50- 100pts.  

 

 

So its more a case of what you want your wolf lord to do ?  As he doesn't really force multiply,   he's a bit of a lone entity.  As are single TWC and Lone wolf.   So they play similar roles,  and are very comparable,  do similar damage output,  but are considerably less points giving you more points for other things or more of the same.  

 

I understand there are "some" thing a wolf lord can do that equivalent cannot,  but I don't think these outweigh the cost difference. 

 

your oversimplifying things though.

 

A twc lord being able to take wounds that the squad couldn't is a huge deal, having higher leadership is important (a leadership 8 squad that falls back 3d6 in a dawn of war deployment is risky, has the ability to make and take challenges, and the fact that he has a higher weapon skill is also important. He is a force multiplier for them.

 

Foot slogging lord vs. lone wolf, the lone wolf can't join squads, has lower weapon skill, gives up a kill point if he lives. Lone wolves are great but they aren't perfect.  Wolf lords also have advantages over our other hqs, rune priest can only get a inv. save in termie armour, and a wolf priest has to take a powermaul.

[Hear da Lamentation]

Some great posts here.  Basically I think this can be summed up as "down to personal choice".  As can be seen from the depth of opinion for this - there is no clear choice here .....  both options (more TWC/LW or Lord) have merits.

 

My only comment in disagreement with the pro "no Lord" posters is that the Lord IS a force multiplier.  He massively improves a unit he is in, by giving them options they otherwise wouldn't have.  (2+, invulnerable to instakill, warlord traits and CHALLENGES !)  The LWs can do this ..... but crucially they cannot do this in a group - and this makes a big difference.  More TWC don't do this .... they are just more (of the admittedly awesome) sameness :)

 

One other thing .... don't forget the biker lord option.  I am playing around with TWC + Lord or Swifclaws plus Lord.  The addition of HoW, proper T5 and the increase in shooting powers now in 6th make them a real viable option.  (Plus you can put a RP in their as well and get some very nice psychic buffs in there - which affect your Lord too).

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

Some great posts here. Basically I think this can be summed up as "down to personal choice". As can be seen from the depth of opinion for this - there is no clear choice here ..... both options (more TWC/LW or Lord) have merits.

My only comment in disagreement with the pro "no Lord" posters is that the Lord IS a force multiplier. He massively improves a unit he is in, by giving them options they otherwise wouldn't have. (2+, invulnerable to instakill, warlord traits and CHALLENGES !) The LWs can do this ..... but crucially they cannot do this in a group - and this makes a big difference. More TWC don't do this .... they are just more (of the admittedly awesome) sameness

One other thing .... don't forget the biker lord option. I am playing around with TWC + Lord or Swifclaws plus Lord. The addition of HoW, proper T5 and the increase in shooting powers now in 6th make them a real viable option. (Plus you can put a RP in their as well and get some very nice psychic buffs in there - which affect your Lord too).

I like the idea of the super biker unit, the only thing that scares me is spending 105 points on three bike upgrades essentially (Wolf Lord, Rune Priest, Wolf Guard Pack Leader).

I suppose the wolf guard pack leader doesn't need to be in there, but ideally I'd load him out for challenges that the RP can't handle and for situations when the Lord would be better served fighting something else.

[Rums]

there are plenty of options that better serve our typical space wolf army than a wolf lord as far as synergy is concerned but as i see it a wolf lord isn't about army wide synergy as far as rules go.

 

the wolf lord seems to me a scare tactic to throw off your opponent ( which i have done consistanly with a WGBL because of points issues.) i have had my CC HQ choises never reach combat because of the shear amount of fire power thrown at them by other armies,and for good reason,(those squads that fired at my TWC or other CC units have a hard time making their points back on their own, it usualy takes three or so squads to be effective enough to kill any of my hammer units, but this is at an unfortunate cost, as grey hunters close in) but my squad has earned more than its points cost in drawing away fire power even before it can make a kill, which is something i think is usually over looked. for example in my last game it took three squads of guardsmen to take down two thunder wolves out of four. a WGBL or a TWL would have been great as i failed a leadership test on a nine and they subsequently never made it to combat ~ i should state here i know i'm rambling  but hey whiskey has that effect ~  

 

but as far as the OP goes the reasons why i would take a wolf lord would be the extra wound, the weapon skill, and chance to take a hard to kill warlord as mine seem to die easily at to wounds and the units they are with could use the leadership ten in most situations w/ I 5 being a huge bonus in most cases like sweeping advances.

 

why i wouldn't well they can only seem to do CC well, while everything else the do is average at best even with warlord traits. 

[eyeslikethunder]

An example of what a Twl brings happen in my game this week vs tau
EW 2 objective. Vanguard
My Twl rolled outflank on warlord much perfer scoring but it would do

 

Looking at the array of railguns and markerlights (TWC hate having to take LD tests under penatlies for Markerlights)and terrain they would have pass through  I outflanked

I took a beating from tau shooting first turn

 

normal TWC would have just been done over by markerlight modified LD tests and railguns

 

they arrived on second turn  and planted themselves on the tau objective. My TWL absorbed a massive amount of firepower including rolling several 2's on his save  and taking the railguns wounded but alive  my fen wolves were dead  

 

They went on to clear the objective of scoring and denial units  winning me the game

 

 

 
Tbf