Hunt the Fallen! All the Time! (fluff stuff)

[Finn]

I guess that It won't be an overstatement if I say that the line of conflict in 40k lies not between good and evil. It's a conflict between order and personal freedom taken to the extremes. It's openly expressed even in the name of the villainous faction of the universe - CHAOS.

 

From the perspective of modern morality, either sides should be considered evil. If you stand for personal freedom, it makes you a psychopath capable of the most horrifying deeds, without any regard for the wellbeing of others. If you support the Imperium, you duty is to enforce uniformity and destroy free thought, individualism. That makes you a grunt for the totalitarian regime.

 

It's not that simple, however. In real life, there is no such force as chaos gods. In game's reality, they are present, and their influence on those who try to live as they please is very, very destructive for everybody. It also justifies the totalitarian methods of the Imperium, as they lead to a real lesser evil. That's why imperial forces are the good guys. Their means may be evil, but the goal makes them worth it.

 

From the perspective of the setting, Dark Angels are quite villainous. They do not conform to the rules of the Imperium. They have no regard for imperial authorities and they express too much individualism. Pursuing some other goal than reinforcing Order makes them too self-centered to be truly a part of the plan. Sure, they picked the right side of the eternal conflict, but in the world where sacrificing self and your own needs for the greater good :) of humanity is the greatest virtue, pursuing your own agenda and having priorities higher than those of the Imperium makes you borderline chaotic.

[Tiger9gamer]

is there any good books that talk about these things?

[Captain Semper]

Captain Semper,

 

I disagree with your opening statement. Why? Because before the Deathwing you don't know enough to experience this conflict.

Well what I meant was that if you have no knowledge of the Fall and you’re ordered to move away from a position that you are obviously needed you’re bound to experience a conflict and to question the order of your superiors – even if it’s made silently or even if your training and loyalty kicks in to justify such an action without fully understanding it. What I mean is it does not come naturally to a marine to abandon his position – especially when the new “threat” is not at all clear.

 

Now, I agree that Boreas was an aberration. And I do agree with the idea that, as a Dark Angel (or Successor) progresses through the various rings of the Inner Circle, he will learn to make the hard choices that the Hunt requires. What I'm saying is that they won't make those choices flippantly or casually.

Maybe. However the correct decision is never in doubt. So maybe not casually, maybe with great burden in their souls, the DAs will always make the decision to continue the Hunt (except for Boreas – and look where it got him! :D). So if the outcome of the internal conflict (for a DW member) is pre-determined the question arises: is it a dilemma at all? Is there a conflict? Does the decision to go after the Hunt and abandon loyal forces to their fate carry a moral weight for a DA? I say it doesn’t. It’s like someone charged with war crimes who says “well I was following orders- didn’t like it but orders are orders”. Well I say that no one cares if he liked it or not and that also he didn’t hate it enough not to do it (except for Boreas – and look where it got him! :D). So no real conflict.

 

 

Consider these two scenarios:

 

1. "Master Balthazar, we have gotten word of a Fallen two systems over. We would be abandoning our allies in the middle of a crucial battle, though, and there's no doubt they'll be massacred without us."

"Why are you wasting my time with pointless details? All squads - prepare for extraction to our Strike Cruiser, no questions asked!"

 

2. "Master Balthazar, we have gotten word of a Fallen two systems over. We would be abandoning our allies in the middle of a crucial battle, though, and there's no doubt they'll be massacred without us."

"Are we the only representatives of the Inner Circle that can act on this? Do I have a Deathwing squad or a Ravenwing squad seconded to my Company that I can split off to pursue this Fallen while the rest of us assist the Imperial Forces (since most of my battle-brothers in the Fifth Company cannot even be trusted with knowledge of this target)? Or is there any way I can complete our current objective before we depart to hunt the Fallen?"

"The answer to all of those questions is no, Master Balthazar..."

"Sigh. Curse the Fallen for bringing us to this. Once more, the lives of loyal warriors must be sacrificed so that we can expunge our secret shame. All squads - prepare for extraction to our Strike Cruiser, no questions asked!"

 

See what I mean? To the Guardsmen being left to die, there's no difference between the two: all they know is the Dark Angels simply left. The fluff never argues that it's otherwise, either - hence why the Dark Angels are distrusted by those who know that their otherwise impeccable battle record is spotted with suspicious events. The reader, though, is exposed to the motives of the various characters - just like in novelized fiction, comic books, movies, etc. When you remove tension and conflict from the decisions the heroes, anti-heroes, and villains have to make, the stakes are correspondingly lowered.:)

Well, the second scenario is not really different from the first for a moral perspective in the sense that the moral decision is there irrespective of whether the Commander is fortunate enough to juggle through both situations. The question is what would he do if he can’t. At least in the first scenario the DA commander does not kid himself to have any moral constrains - or at least his morality is not defined by protecting the Imperium but by serving the Chapter the way he understands it best. Now I do not doubt that a DA commander will take all the measures necessary to protect the loyal forces when the DAs are gone but the moral question is what you do when you can't have the best of both worlds.

 

Sartre said on the matter:

 

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does.

I totally agree with that. There is always another choice. What you actually do is what your morality dictates. This would apply to SMs too as they do possess free will - although I'm sure Sartre did not have Dark Angels in mind when he said that. :lol:

 

Yeap, It’s difficult to like them – you really have to see things their way or else it’ll be very difficult to find moral justification for them (by 2k standards that is… :D)

[Finn]

I thought that literally every 40k book has hints that the Imperium is a really lousy place to live.

 

Look who is a heretic in 40k - somebody who doesn't follow the Imperial Creed. Thruthfullness to the Creed is being forced by the Ministorum and the Inquisition. The Creed does not only give one directions on religious matters, it also touches on internal politics and obedience to the authorities, who are representatives of a divine figure who set up the whole empire and brought enlightment to humanity scattered Across the universe. If you do not obey or try to change anything, you'll be stigmatised. Add to that the teachings of the Machine God and what we have is a world where there is no place for technological improvement, democracy and discussion on the form governance, as it's all dogma. Enforced by bolter, chainsword and fire. Every deviation from the Creed is punished by death. Rebellion against the Imperium is not a crime against the state - it's outright religious heresy.

 

Read the books, the codices, the BGB. Individual human holds no importance. Everybody is considered a resource, a gear in the imperial machine with a single purpose of servitude in war on Chaos and maintaining status quo (or order, as I Put it earlier). It's equally true in case of a space marine and a simple factory worker. The duty of each and every human is to serve the Imperium, as the Imperium is the only shield to protect us from the evil of chaos.

 

The DA abandon their duties when a Fallen emerges on the horizon. They do it because they selfishly want to avoid consequence of a conscious lie regarding the events on Caliban. They chose deceit instead of truth and repentance. There is no price too high to hide the truth. Even the Imperium itself. The Unforgiven are like samurai, and their only daymio is the Emperor. For them, the current authorities have no power over them.

 

They feel they have at least equal standing to the High Lords of Terra, if not higher. They acknowledge the right of the Inquisition to judge everybody, except for themselves. This is hubris and double standards.

[Arioch]

Like Phoebus, I too believe that the choice to abbandon an ally is never taken lightly by the Dark Angels. Sure, we may have zealots like Azmodai who would´nt give much thought on the matter, but for most commanders it appears to be a heavy burden. It is the curse of the chapter, like the black rage of the Blood Angels, a secrets that will always threaten their existence as long as the Fallen survives. I feel that it goes well with the theme of repentance, a theme that Belial seems to have absorbed completly. According to the codex, he feels that he can never be good enough, he always seeks to improve himself, and this is actually what makes him such an awsome commander, because he can never be satisfied with his own achievements. This way of thought is very much like that of a christian monk- he tries to live bye the bibel, but he can never achieve this because he is, well, human.

Hence the Dark Angels feel that they can never be the migthy, honourable legion they should have been, as long as they are tainted by betrayal, all their glorious victories is nothing. Because of their shame they have achieved great results, great enough for the High Lords of Terra to leave them alone, although they have their suspicions.

Well, thats how I see them, but I do believe the fluff leaves enough room for us to fill in our own gaps. So pretty darn sweet!

[Brother Immolator]

The Unforgiven are like samurai, and their only daymio is the Emperor. For them, the current authorities have no power over them.

 

 

 

And that is the ultimate truth, and the fact that most ppl don't realize: Before the HH things were like that. It was only the emperor and his decrees. No mortal would hold authority over the space marines. The DAs only consideration is to redeem themselves in the emperors eyes only. The rest are irrelevant. The only only one that matters is he.

[Tiger9gamer]

It seems I dont know that much about the DA yet X-X any books I should read? also, I agree  with Arloch and Phoebus about their observations

[Captain Semper]

@ Tiger9gamer: Angels of Darkness and Ravenwing are both good reads... I think the current codex is doing an excellent work in presentign the 40k incarnation of the DAs. I suggest you start from there... Horus Heresy books are describing a pre-Fall Legion so maybe not first priority...

 

@ Arioch: You're absolutely right. It's very much a matter of interpretation and it's up to each one of us to give DAs some redeeming attributes or not. We just take our pick. :D

 

Personally I think the example with Blood Angels is a very good one - they (the BAs) have a secret that's genetic mutation. Can you really hold this against them? Nope. They didn't ask for it and they are striving to eradicate it (mostly failing). That makes them noble and tragic heroes. But the DAs consciously chose to retain their secret and to make the largest cover-up operation that the world has seen. Can you hold this against them? Yeap - their choice and stuck to it for 10 millenia. There is nothing tragic here, it's a calculating descision and they (DAs) are still not letting go.

 

@ Finn & Bro Immolator: We are in agreement guys!

[Brother Immolator]

Is the BA geenefault a secret as in the DA fallen secret? I.E. everyone who learns about it gets erased? I thought the upper eshelons of the imperium knew that the BA had a problem and that they strive to fix it...somehow...

[Plastic Rat]

It seems I dont know that much about the DA yet X-X any books I should read? also, I agree  with Arloch and Phoebus about their observations

 

With 40k it helps if you never fall into the trap of believing that any faction are 'The Good Guys' or even better than the rest.  GW seem to go to great pains to make everyone pretty bad somewhere.  I have it on some authority that the fluff in the recent Grey Knights codex which involved Grey Knights slaughtering loyal Sisters of Battle in order to adorn their armor with their blood as protection against Chaos, was put in because too many people thought Grey Knights were choir boys or 'The Good Guys'.  (Slaughtering entire loyal Imperial Guard armies for witnessing a deamonic incursion wasn't enough to tell you they're a bit extreme... -- I still believe it's more part of "He-who-shall-not-be-named's" weird fetishes though.)

 

Anyway, they're all pretty despicable, just choose the kind of despicable you can live with.

 

I'm actually personally finding that the fluff presentation in the latest codex is presenting the Dark Angels in a far more noble and stoic light than I originally saw them.  I'm pretty happy with the fluff in there and I think it's pretty spot on and well written.  Even if Asmodai is a gigantic jerk.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

As I can see it, you have 2 main groups within the DA: those who will do whatever it takes to hunt the fallen, exemplified in the AoV while those for whom it is a dilemma, exemplified within the AoA. Both groups exist within the DA Chapter as well, and all the others.

 

On the one hand you have people like Asmodai, who are just 100% focused, they are willing to sacrifice all others to capture one Fallen, ala short story in the Codex where he tells Belial to forget the civvies. Belial, in this tale, exemplifies the other nature of the DA, the fact that at their core they want to be honourable knightly fellows but circumstance and their beliefs leave them unable to follow this.

 

Belial makes the decision to potentially lose a number of Astartes to rescue the miners, then they remove the Fallen. If they were so obsessed with the hunt to the exclusion of all else, chances are they would have taken the route of Asmodai which is just leave them all to rot. The Dark Angels are obsessed with guilt and shame, and the need to cover it up, because they are just so honourable. The shame is so great because of their honour and what they do, and continue to do, keeps staining that. Yet it is necessary until one day it will no longer be needed.

 

For me, this is greater than purely 'hunt above all' approach, and I think this is the route being more introduced in the DA background in recent codexes and publications.

[facmanpob]

(Slaughtering entire loyal Imperial Guard armies for witnessing a deamonic incursion wasn't enough to tell you they're a bit extreme... -- I still believe it's more part of "He-who-shall-not-be-named's" weird fetishes though.)

Omg! Not Voldemort? ;)

[Arioch]

Is the BA geenefault a secret as in the DA fallen secret? I.E. everyone who learns about it gets erased? I thought the upper eshelons of the imperium knew that the BA had a problem and that they strive to fix it...somehow...

Oh that may be older fluff, not quite updated with all the changes of the Ward-dex, but I do remember reading that no one was supposed to know about what happend to the unfortunate survivors of the deathcompany. They got dragged of to some tower and the Emperor knows what happend to them there. In the new fluff they just gets executed by Astaroth (yes, apparently he can be on all battlefields at the same time!). Most where aware of the flaws in the BA geenseed, but I dont think anyone knew the full extent of it. But I do believe that both chapters struggles with their dualisme: The BA with their noble aspect (Sanguinor) vs. their savagery (Astaroth) and the DA with their Hunt (embodied in Asmodai) and upholding their honour as protectors of the Imperium ....(Boreas the failure.. ) Im sure no member of the Inner Circle would be directly against the Hunt. The codex is very clear on the matter: If anyone finds out, all the Sons of the Lion would be declared traitors! I really dont think they had a choice in this (well they could have told, but what would the Imperium have gained? Fewer astartes to defend it I think.

[Brother Immolator]

Thanks for the heads up brother! :D

[Phoebus]

Please delete... the editing went to hell and I need to re-type the whole thing!  :D

[FerociousBeast]

The Dark Angels are too paranoid. 

 

The Imperium would not condemn them excommunicate traitoris if they found out about the Fallen. Have we forgotten the Space Wolves 13th Great Company or the Red Corsairs? Bits and pieces of loyal chapters turn rebel all the time and the Imperium does not hold the loyalists accountable.

 

The Dark Angels pursue the Fallen because they are paranoid, because they've always done so, and for redemption in the eyes of the Emperor, as a kind of self-imposed penance. And I've hypothesized at length that the Dark Angels pursue the Fallen because they fear that they too could fall to the darkness within them. See "Fear and the Fearless" in my sig.

[Finn]

I've hypothesized at length that the Dark Angels pursue the Fallen because they fear that they too could fall to the darkness within them. See "Fear and the Fearless" in my sig.

Ditto. My elaborations above mean also one more thing: Dark Angels are not named "dark" without a reason. The reason is that our current actions are sometimes disloyal enough to make us much less different form the Fallen than we would like to admit.

[Bryan Blaire]

I have it on some authority that the fluff in the recent Grey Knights codex which involved Grey Knights slaughtering loyal Sisters of Battle in order to adorn their armor with their blood as protection against Chaos, was put in because too many people thought Grey Knights were choir boys or 'The Good Guys'.  (Slaughtering entire loyal Imperial Guard armies for witnessing a deamonic incursion wasn't enough to tell you they're a bit extreme... -- I still believe it's more part of "He-who-shall-not-be-named's" weird fetishes though.)

Then again, GW has also gone with the concept that Psyker abilities are still sorcery, per the Big Green Book that says (pg 66) "Whilst commonly referred to as psychic powers, such abilities are nothing less than sorcery - though it suits many races in the galaxy to pretend otherwise." Honestly, in reference to this event in the GK codex, I think it's actually more a reinforcement of this concept and adding some grim-dark back in: the Imperium has entire Chapter of sorcerers they use. Full stop. Even if they are trying to save humanity, they are sorcerers. Saying "No no, they are the good guys" is just pretending.

 

Sorcery has been amalgamated with blood magic numerous times in history and literature for years, often to enhance the potency of the magic, and the more innocent the victims, the more potent the result (and in some stories/ideas, only an innocent victim - not necessarily human, but innocent none the less will work). While I would agree this may have been a way to distance them from the "Good Guy" vibe, it seems that GW is also reinforcing the sorcery imagery with this event.

[Plastic Rat]

The Dark Angels are too paranoid.

The Imperium would not condemn them excommunicate traitoris if they found out about the Fallen. Have we forgotten the Space Wolves 13th Great Company or the Red Corsairs? Bits and pieces of loyal chapters turn rebel all the time and the Imperium does not hold the loyalists accountable.

Well there is that one little piece of history in the codex where an Inquisitor finds a member of The Fallen and makes great haste for Holy Terra, proclaiming to have found evidence of great heresy. Luckilly for the Dark Angels they are in a position to make him disappear and his communique wasn't specific about who or what kind of heresy.

Still, looking at how excited the Inquisition gets over learning stuff like this, I don't think it would be a circle of hugs if the secret came to light.

Additionally, due to the extreme lengths they've gone to keep the secret, they definitely need to keep their measures secret. Destroying ships full of loyalist chapters because they ran into a fallen is probably going to be taken pretty seriously.

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that everyone ISN'T out to get you.

[Bryan Blaire]

Additionally, their continued semi-Legion operating mode would likely be damning if it came to light as well, and since the High Lords apparently already suspect this...

[facmanpob]

If the Unforgiven were forced by circumstance to reform into the 1st Legion, would they all repaint their armour? If so, all that paint would be difficult to conceal. They'd have to stock it somewhere......it's not like they could pop to Homebase and ask for enough paint for 10,000 suits of armour, 2,000 armoured vehicles ... Etc etc

 

;)

[pueriexdeus]

If the Unforgiven were forced by circumstance to reform into the 1st Legion, would they all repaint their armour? If so, all that paint would be difficult to conceal. They'd have to stock it somewhere......it's not like they could pop to Homebase and ask for enough paint for 10,000 suits of armour, 2,000 armoured vehicles ... Etc etc

10,000 really, your joking :) is that all you have? Paint means nothing, so long as its not blue, grey, or yellow. ;),

[Asmodai's Joy]

Just feeling the need to weigh in here, given I've been reading up on the fluff of the Dark Angels since waaaay back. I personally feel that how seriously the Hunt is taken is not only a personal one on our part as the players, but also the individual personalities themselves(even some of the unnamed ones). I also feel that this is particularly true of certain sections of the Chapter as well. Would an Interrogator-Chaplain take the hunt more seriously than a jaded terminator who would never even make it to the Knights? Absolutely. Anyone who is responsible for seeing a name penned into the Book of Salvation would have a much deeper stake in the hunt then those who don't. Look at my namesake. I chose to make my original character around the sheer flavor of the seriousness of the Book of Salvation's role to the Chapter, and who takes the gravity of the Hunt home with them more than anybody? The singular soul that has extracted more information about the traitors still at large than any other: Interrogator-Chaplain Asmodai. In those days, his skills at interrogation were so renowned there was a chance the enemy would simply turn and run just by being approached by him. He even had a line in the fluff that sounded like it belonged in a Dark Eldar book just to describe why people fled him. Like some of the rest of you, however, I do like the idea of a theme of personal torment for even those who are the most deeply-invested in the hunt, hence why my character was written, fluff-wise, as Asmodai's confidante. Even fear itself has trouble sleeping some nights, even if it is only because he realizes how much work there still is to be done.

 

So I guess what I'm saying is that while it's true we bring ourselves to our chapter, the chapter has been around a long time, and been written about by more than one person. As we settle into our newest Codex, we see the arrival of new layers of the different "wings" of the chapter, and this, too, will add richness to our story. Our past is shared with everyone else who looks to the 1st legion and took an interest in sharing its fate. That is the glory of our fluff, and why, even when we suffer through 'dexes as painful as the one we just sloughed off, what makes us the best. How many other chapters in the GW lineup within the imperium can even really have a conversation about their chapter's identity like this? With most of them it's pretty spelled out. Our chapter was written by diverse people for diverse people, and that is why I love the Dark Angels.

[facmanpob]

 

If the Unforgiven were forced by circumstance to reform into the 1st Legion, would they all repaint their armour? If so, all that paint would be difficult to conceal. They'd have to stock it somewhere......it's not like they could pop to Homebase and ask for enough paint for 10,000 suits of armour, 2,000 armoured vehicles ... Etc etc;)

10,000 really, your joking :) is that all you have? Paint means nothing, so long as its not blue, grey, or yellow. ;),

Well, that was just an example of a number that could be used .... The real figure is of course classified ;)

[Brother Immolator]

It seems recently ferociousbeast are having too many a contradictory opinion

I dont believe that the Inquisition stood Idle in the Bhadab war. It certainly took its time to react but react it did, eventualy. Thank the adepts for filing out the paperwork THAT fast

Having a couple of traitor marines is one thing. There is not a single chapter not having them. Having half the legion turn (any estimates?around 5k marines perhaps? or I am going overboard?) is entirely another. Also you must consider the time this happened. After the end of the HH. The whole galaxy was mired in distrust. The Imperium nearly engaged the IFs, one of the most IF NOT THE MOST loyal chapter to the imperium at the time just because they didnt bent the knee to a guidebook. Imagine thus:

Dark Angels Grandmaster:''Lord Iquisitor, you see eh...we return to Caliban and....half the legion had turned to chaos...."

Inquisitor:" "

Dark Angels Grandmaster:"And you see,,,eh we blew Caliban apart to kill them and...".

Inquisitor:"And.AND!?!?!?!?!"

Dark Angels Grandmaster:"Yes you see the Lion is missing and apparently chaos saved our bro...the traitors. Oh and we kept Luther in a cage to use as an Oracle. But we are completely Loyal, we even broke into chapters...Well sort of...".

At which point If I was the inquisitor would not report them at all.

I would smile saying:

"Well you DA were always a loyal chapter doing the emperors work. The Imperium thanks you." And proceeded to smack his head with the nearest thunder hammer.

So the DA used a lie. And then to cover the one lie used another and another and another...And since they are lying for 10k years, the lie accumulation has grown to such proportions that heresy would just not even been enough of a word to accuse them. Especially in an openminded institution such the imperium.

"It was all a misunderstanding, honest! "