Demus Ragnok Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 On average how large would a population need to be to sustain an average legions recruiting needs during the crusade? Lets say the legion has an average casualty rate as in not like say world eaters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 The Dark Angels were just using Caliban, the Night Lords were just using Nostramo and as far as I am aware, Legions that had homeworlds were recruiting from their homeworlds, which were in various states of population levels and technological capabilities. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Interesting question. It seems like information contradicts itself from time to time, some sources say only 1 in 100 makes it all the way to become Astartes, others say 1 in 1000. Let's take 1 in 1000 for example, and seeing birth rate on wikipedia is 3-5% of population per year, we can do some calculation: 2% of male child / 1000 (survivability) = 0.002% of population size can become Astartes per year, so to make 1000 Astartes we need population of at least half a million where 100% of children will try to become Astartes. Not so bad? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295346 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 According to Betrayal, each of the example Legions recruited from multiple worlds - which I would assume is secondary evidence that a single world simply isn't enough for Crusade era Legion recruitment, given the rates of attrition alluded to in same said book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295351 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I extend the 'recruits from Homeworld' to recruits from the entire planetery system, if there are habitable planets and promissing recruits among them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295367 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Interesting question. It seems like information contradicts itself from time to time, some sources say only 1 in 100 makes it all the way to become Astartes, others say 1 in 1000. Let's take 1 in 1000 for example, and seeing birth rate on wikipedia is 3-5% of population per year, we can do some calculation: 2% of male child / 1000 (survivability) = 0.002% of population size can become Astartes per year, so to make 1000 Astartes we need population of at least half a million where 100% of children will try to become Astartes. Not so bad? Good question and nice start but I think the number is a lot bigger. You are a factor of a hundred out on your initial maths. Half a million (500,000) babies giving 1,000 recruits suggests that of all male babies, one in five hundred becomes an astartes. If we say that 2% are born that is 0.02 times the population and then one in a thousand of those is 0.00002 giving a figure of 50 million. That's still potential peanuts by planetary population standards. I'm going to suggest that of all babies born only a small percentage are fit to even be eligible for recrutiment selection and then almost all of those fail to make full astartes. Whether one in a hundred gets picked and one in a thousand of those picked make it through or some other split of factors is up to you. I'm going to combine both factors to say that of all male babies born one in a hundred thousand achieves full astartes status. This suggests that the population is needed is more like 5 billion - hey, guess what, we've got enough people on Earth now to support a Legion. I have more but I've got to go, back soon! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Remember that the tech to change human into marines worked better during the crusade. Also before the HH books full grown males could be changed into marine for example the majority of the population of the war master,s home world iirc. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295414 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Not sure about Horus' homeworld, but I know that is what happened with Russ' homeworld according to the short story Wolf at the Door by Mike Lee in the Tales of Heresy anthology. According to that, all of the mortals who were following Russ took up the trials to become a Space Marine and I think most of them survived, but then they all became members of the Thirteenth Company. Although apparently there are still limits as individuals like Luther and Kor Phaeron are apparently so old that instead they have to have a completely different set of enhancements that put them at similar standings with Astartes, but not the exact same. Although since Luther and Kor Phaeron are still alive 10,000 years later and the only Space Marines who managed that were either in stasis, warp-tainted or jumping through the warp, I'm curious as to whether it would be better to be like Luther and Kor or be an actual Astartes......... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Remember that the tech to change human into marines worked better during the crusade. Not entirely true. It worked faster, but not better. As FW Horus Heresy tells us at least, page 27 at the bottom. all of the mortals who were following Russ took up the trials to become a Space Marine and I think most of them survived, Actually no, it said that very few of them survived, that kind of showed their loyalty to the dog-master that they were willing to give their lives instead of being left behind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295528 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 all of the mortals who were following Russ took up the trials to become a Space Marine and I think most of them survived, Actually no, it said that very few of them survived, that kind of showed their loyalty to the dog-master that they were willing to give their lives instead of being left behind. My bad, I just remembered that it happened and the "That number amazed even the Allfather himself" because apparently forty old guys out of hundreds is something to wow about. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 According to fluff once you pass the age of organ implantation its impossible to become a marine. The DA as an example put all the older knights into a treatment of surgery and genetic modification that made them superhuman but not astartes. The difference was obvious even from plain sight, since those pseudo marines where not quite as tall or broad as the true astartes. Also Luther and Kor Phaeron (spelling) are warp touched, so that why they are still alive. Luther is also kept in stasis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295585 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 @ Kol - Just a quick pointer: Iirc, I do believe Luther is normally kept in stasis, too. They just wheel him out, Silence of the Lambs style (not really), and interrogate him every now and again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 @ Kol - Just a quick pointer: Iirc, I do believe Luther is normally kept in stasis, too. They just wheel him out, Silence of the Lambs style (not really), and interrogate him every now and again. Ninjad HAH! :P :P :P :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295634 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 @ Kol - Just a quick pointer: Iirc, I do believe Luther is normally kept in stasis, too. They just wheel him out, Silence of the Lambs style (not really), and interrogate him every now and again. Ninjad HAH! ... Oh. Balls. Well, it was about time someone did it to me, I suppose. :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Kravin Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Since I've not got to Betrayer yet I'd be interested to know which Legions are said to have recruited from beyond their homeworlds. It always seemed stupid to restrict selection to those who happened to be born on one of twenty-one worlds (at most, obviously two didn't work out) in an Imperium that even in its early days must have quickly numbered hundreds or thousands of worlds. There must have been individuals who got made marines despite the fact that there were humans who were better candidates but got inducted into the Imperial Army on the basis of homeworld. This makes sense in 40k where the marines are a political and military minority. The Guard have much greater political sway and strategic significance because of their integration within the central power structure and chain of command overseen by the High Lords of Terra. In the Great Crusade era however the marines were seen as key. I suppose the driving factor is that the Emperor had created a very feudal kind of structure with Primarchs who were fiercely loyal to particular cultures. Running through some of the Legions quickly: Emperor's Children, Salamanders and Thousand Sons were always very small Legions and could easily recruit from one world. Ultramarines potentially had all the worlds of the Ultramar system at their disposal which would seem to make their huge numbers sensible. Alpha Legion - their size and homeworld were kept secret but since Alpharius was already leading a space fleet when encountered by Horus it seems in character for him to have had access to multiple worlds as recruiting grounds. Night Lords came from a Hive world that could easily have had a population in the tens or hundreds of billions so no need to look further afield. Space Wolves seem to have had a very strong and distinctive Fenrisian culture with a suspicion of outsiders and the fate of the Wolf Brothers and the Wulfen Curse suggest that they would recruit only from Fenris. Given that Fenris had a primitive culture without the distractions afforded by a more civilised world such as Colchis or Macragge and children were necessary to reinforce the tribe and ensure survival I posit that it would have had a higher than average birth rate. Couple that with the selective pressures of Fenris's Death World environment and I think that those who survived infancy long enough to be selected for Astartes induction would probably have had a higher survival rate to full marine status than average. The Imperial Fists, Word Bearers and Luna Wolves seem the most likely to have recruited from more than one world as they were the biggest but didn't have a primary world that was a hive (like Nostramo) or part of a coalition (like Ultramar). I know that the Fists adopted Terra and that was essential a Hive world in terms of urbanisation but the population figures would be inflated by members of other organisations whose offspring would probably not be available as potential Astartes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 On the case of Luther, I thought Angels of Darkness said that he stark raving mad in a cell deep beneath the Rock, constantly screaming for the Lion's forgiveness? I haven't seen Betrayal yet so I really cannot comment on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 A Death World environment would only make it likely that the child would be physically suitable to become a marine, that they had the innate toughness that other legions on cushier planets have to suss out through physical trials. It wouldn't mecessarily mean that the candidate would be genetically compatible with the implants or geneseed. The Ragnar books don't indicate a particularly good success rate in SW aspirants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295820 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 On the case of Luther, I thought Angels of Darkness said that he stark raving mad in a cell deep beneath the Rock, constantly screaming for the Lion's forgiveness? I haven't seen Betrayal yet so I really cannot comment on it. The codex says that he is in stasis, awakened at times, just to pry a confession out of him. He is irrevocably mad though going to the point of referring him as the Luther-thing. He has his uses as sometimes tells tid bits of info that reveal hidden passageways inside the rock or artifacts of the legion locations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Ah, so my view of the fluff needs an update then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova_Dew Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 For the numbers you might have to rethink them since not only did they transform faster but they were also less picky about who they chose Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3295909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Night Lords came from a Hive world that could easily have had a population in the tens or hundreds of billions so no need to look further afield. Wait... Nostromo was not a hive world, was it? There were proper cities, instead of light industry it mined metals, and the sky was polluted by ore refineries. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3296327 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 I would say that it was pretty close before the Emperor arrived and if the massed invrease of industry on Caliban is anything to go by, it definitely was afterwards. But at the same time, I wouldn't use that logical progression to say it was a hive world either, unless there is a specific quote. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270533-recruitment-numbers/#findComment-3297075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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