Flamers

[Angel of Solitude]

I'm currently buidling a Ravenwing army, and I'm trying to work out what special weapons to include. One option is a flamer, which if my understanding is correct is essentially a mass-hit anti-infantry weapon - the advantage being that you hit all the models under the template in one hit.

 

Now if you rock up with a bike squad and the Standard of Devastation, then am I right in thinking that the resulting benefit to bolter fire gives an equivalent anti-infantry weapon? If so, then taking a flamer seems redundant. Is this a fair assessment, or is there another advantage to having a flamer?

[GlauG]

One advantage of having a flamer in a Standard of Devastation based army is that it will allow you to make 1d3 automatic hits should any enemies get to assault you, wheras I think Salvo weapons don't allow Overwatch. However, generally speaking the other special weapons do things that your bolters don't, mainly in regards to taking down high toughness creatures or vehicles.

[AngelVeto]

Salvo weapons can fire overwatch, more specifically you fire at your full profile. So if you get charged, you're always pumping out four twin linked shots per biker.

 

OT: flamers are great against horde armies like IG and nids. S4AP5 template that auto hits is pretty sweet when your dealing with large squads of low toughness creatures.

[Master Avoghai]

And the main problem is also the cost. Compare the price of the standard vs the price of the flamers providing you manage to gather enough bikes in the 6" radius...

I do not believe in the SoD combo with RW. Much too complicate to realize once you're in battle.

 

The point of the flamer is IMO to give a anti inf buff against troops in a RW-heavy army.

 

Normally you have things like tacticals with SoD, crusaders, WW to take care of the enemy's light infantry. But if you plan to play pure RW, this support will naturally lack and that's what flamers are made for.

 

Other than that, in a multi wing list I prefer take 4 bikes with 2 meltas/plasma to outflank my opponent and take care of his precious elite troops/tanks

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Know what causes flamers? All of you cause flamers! We're the victims of the community and-

 

Oh you meant the weapon, never you mind me. :P

[lhg033]

the major advantage of flamers is the ignore cover/double wounds vs swarms but, at least in my mind, SoD gives a good alternative to flamers. the double bolter shots keeps you nicely at arms length so you dont need to get stuck in, will potentially add at least a similar number of hits as the flamer plus you can hit a wider are of the squad so if they are spread out vs a flamer. anti-infantry is covered so i'd be inclined to add plasma or meltaguns instead

[facmanpob]

Know what causes flamers? All of you cause flamers! We're the victims of the community and-

Oh you meant the weapon, never you mind me.

Hehe! Made me laugh :)

The most important difference between flamers and salvo bolters (SoD-stylee) as anti-infantry weapons imho is range. Although not exactly long-ranged, the bolters are more of a stand-off weapon than the flamer. To make best use of the flamer you are really going to have to get within 3" of the enemy unit so that the template is sitting over as many models as possible. This is likely to put you in close proximity to more than one enemy unit, so the chances of ending up in close combat are high (even if you annihilate the unit you shot at). With the salvo'd bolters, you are getting 4 shots at 24" range. Even if you are at 20" or 21" to ensure that you can shoot everyone in an enemy unit, its still a lot further away, and your chances of ending up in CC the next turn are much reduced.

This affects how you outfit the rest of the squad, and even how many bikers you take per squad. Personally, though, I like taking melta as my special weapon in small 3-man bikes squads (3-man bike squad w/ 2 x melta + MMAB = 155 points :D ), and plasma in 6-man bike squads, so I don't often use the flamer.

[elphilo]

the major advantage of flamers is the ignore cover/double wounds vs swarms but, at least in my mind, SoD gives a good alternative to flamers. the double bolter shots keeps you nicely at arms length so you dont need to get stuck in, will potentially add at least a similar number of hits as the flamer plus you can hit a wider are of the squad so if they are spread out vs a flamer. anti-infantry is covered so i'd be inclined to add plasma or meltaguns instead

Agreed. If you're planning on taking a SoD army, you really don't want to be in melee or in range of being assaulted. Which is what trying to use the flamer will do. The only time I could see it is if a hell drake/demolisher cannon is on the board and you don't want to get hit, and then you just Hit and Run on your opponents turn to continue shooting on yours. Otherwise you're kind of wasting the points of the SoD. 

[Angel of Solitude]

Thanks for all the comments and advice. The recommendation seems to be to keep Ravenwing bikers at range, which therefore reduces the effectiveness of a flamer. So the follow-up question becomes, how valuable is a Heavy Flamer on a Land Speeder?

[facmanpob]

Thanks for all the comments and advice. The recommendation seems to be to keep Ravenwing bikers at range, which therefore reduces the effectiveness of a flamer. So the follow-up question becomes, how valuable is a Heavy Flamer on a Land Speeder?

Depends on what you want the speeder to do. There are multiple builds open to the speeder other than the base Heavy bolter option (in order of cost):

Twin Hvy Flamer

Hvy Flamer / Multimelta

Typhoon

Twin Multi-melta

Tornado w/ Assault Cannon

etc etc

My view is that as an AV10 vehicle, its life expectancy is not necessarily very high, so the vehicle should be specialised in what it is outfitted for. For example, I tend to run mine as Typhoons, with the 48" missile launchers as my primary use weapon. For that reason, the 36" range heavy bolter is a better complementary weapon for me than the flamer or multimelta, as I will get to shoot the HB from a distance without having to close inside enemy small arms range.

If I want a deep striking anti tank suicide unit, I would go for twin multimeltas. Similarly if I wanted a deep striking anti horde suicide unit, twin heavy flamers is a decent cheap option. It doesn't take a huge amount of imagination to consider what 2 heavy flamers would do to a 50-man IG blob or a large group of cultists. The problem is that your speeder WILL die the next turn, but at only 60 points it is worth considering if it cripples an important enemy unit!

A mixed set up of multimelta and heavy flamer is also an option, as it does give the opportunity to target vehicles and hordes, but won't kill either with maximum efficiency, and will still probably die the next turn.

As an aside, shooting missiles from 48" range, whilst hiding behind cover, or other vehicles, I've had Typhoons survive entire games quite often, whilst still pumping out damage every turn. For that reason, I tend to keep my speeders as long range fire support, but YMMV.