Question on the Banner of Devastation

[abraxus]

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the Banner of Devastation and what weapons it actually affects.  I am of the belief that this only effects the specific BOLTGUN (the weapon also known as the BOLTER), as opposed to BOLTGUNS (the "family" of weapons).

 

That brings me to my question:

What about the hurricane bolter?  This weapon reads as "consists of 3 twin-linked bolters fired as a single weapon".  I have always considered the Land Raider Crusader as a poor variant of the Land Raider unless you must have the additional troop capacity; but if the banner affects Hurricane Bolters I can see this being the ride of choice for command squads.

[cypherthefallenangel]

I would say yes to bolters, combis, TL bolters, and hurricane bolters. No to boltpistols, heavy bolters, storm bolters, and mega bolters.

[elphilo]

I would say it affects the Hurricane Bolters. I say this because the reference chart in the back of the DA codex makes no mention of "Hurricane Bolters," unless I'm totally blind lol :P

[Cactus]

I would say yes to bolters, combis, TL bolters, and hurricane bolters. No to boltpistols, heavy bolters, storm bolters, and mega bolters.

 

This is my interpretation too.

[Brother Immolator]

I would say yes to bolters, combis, TL bolters, and hurricane bolters. No to boltpistols, heavy bolters, storm bolters, and mega bolters.

 

Yup, I agree too.

Until though it is FAQed I would avoid getting into arguments during my games for my piece of mind.

[barek]

To me: boltguns.  Exactly what it says: "... treat their boltguns as..." . It does not say or add anything else. No storm, super, heavy, combi, water- or hurricane bolters. 

[Azrael Turnbull]

To me: boltguns.  Exactly what it says: "... treat their boltguns as..." . It does not say or add anything else. No storm, super, heavy, combi, water- or hurricane bolters. 

 

You can counter this argument by the fact that a Twin-Linked Bolter does not have it's own weapon entry in the summary page. It's therefore a Twin-Linked "Bolter" and not a "Twin-Linked Bolter". The Hurricane Bolter is pushing a little bit, but as it counts as the previously mentioned Twin-Linked Bolters, nothing is certain.

 

Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters etc... Well, that's just silly. Can you imagine a Bolt Pistol firing 4 shots a turn at 24" range? Do you think this is what the Workshop had in mind? I'm glad to see that none of the above posters do. 

[Kastor Krieg]

A bolter is a bolter.

A TL-bolter (bikes) is a bolter with the twin-linked USR, but still just a bolter.

A Hurricane bolter is three TL-bolters, each of them just a bolter only with the twin-linked USR.

 

All of them are bolters, all of them are FOR SURE affected by the dakkaflag. The only point of doubt were the "other boltguns", like SB, HB, etc. - just because the rule calls for "all boltguns in x inches range". The general consensus is that these "other boltguns" are not affected and we're waiting for a FAQ.

[Brom MKIV]

 

Just to play devils advocate the lil' BGB pg.56 under BOLTGUNS lists bolt pistols, boltgun, storm bolter, heavy bolter and vulcan megabolter.

 

Not saying im advocating for these to be included but thats what the book states. Actually everything from HB on doesnt actually benefit much. Its really bolt pistols and more importantly stormbolters that would become broken. Picture deathwing vengeful strikes with relentless 4 shot stormbolters.   

 

Edit- its worth noting that the SoD + twin linked bolters on a fast relentless platform for 27 pts is probably more broken than the SoD on a 42 pt one, even if the latter is more resilient to ap3. Upon further reflection I honestly wonder what GWs next FAQ will read.

[lothlorienmoon]

I have to ditto that this means the following are affected: bolters, combi-bolters, hurrican bolters, and twin linked bolters. Heavy bolters, mega bolters, storm bolters and boltguns are slightly different. But we do have a problem with unclear Rules as Written vs. Rules as Intended. Obviously, common sense dictates that bolt pistols don't benefit, and storm bolters/heavy bolters aren't the same thing, per se, and everything else (mega, vulcan, etc.) is actually not helped at all, or even hurt, by the rule. My game group argued for all of two hours about this, till someone pointed out how if it affects storm/heavy bolters, it should also affect one's mega bolter, and during apocalypse the titan's big 15 shot bolter gun. But, yes, it isn't as clear as it could be.

[Brother Immolator]

Well. I read on a novel that bolt pistols too have a semi automatic mode and can burst shot three rounds in succession, but you know that is fluff and all.

[Master Avoghai]

 

 

Edit- its worth noting that the SoD + twin linked bolters on a fast relentless platform for 27 pts is probably more broken than the SoD on a 42 pt one, even if the latter is more resilient to ap3. Upon further reflection I honestly wonder what GWs next FAQ will read

Don't think it's broken ... Your banner is in a 3 men strong unit (hence VERY fragile) all equiped with plasma talon => won't benefit from the banner effect themselves. And it's more complicated to concentrate a lot of bikes unit in a 6" radius.

 

I'm with the ones claiming that the crudader DOES benefit from the banner just because I think the combi bolters profit from it as well. 

Stricto sensu : combi bolters are not bolters but in their description they are described as another weapon mounted on a bolter. The Bolter however keeps his S4AP5 Rapid fire status.

Same thing for the hurricane bolters : they are described as several bolters mounted together. For each bolter you still keep the S4AP5 Rapid fire status and gain the USR Twinlinked special rule.

 

To me it's much more different than HB or Mega bolters which are  different versions of bolters => profile different from S4AP5 Rapid fire

And to me it's why the SB aren't affected => They are NOT S4AP5 Rapid fire

[facmanpob]

Essentially what they should have said in the rule was that any bolter type weapon that uses the 24", Rapid Fire, S4 AP5 profile is affected by the SoD. That would have been crystal clear and simple. Unfortunately they didn't!

 

Anyway, I'm not going to try to use bolt pistols and heavy bolters with the SoD. :)

[Brother Immolator]

Or simply called it by its in game name of bolter.

[lhg033]

I would say yes to bolters, combis, TL bolters, and hurricane bolters. No to boltpistols, heavy bolters, storm bolters, and mega bolters.

this is how i will be playing it until a FAQ says otherwise

[Arioch]

 

 

Just to play devils advocate the lil' BGB pg.56 under BOLTGUNS lists bolt pistols, boltgun, storm bolter, heavy bolter and vulcan megabolter.

 

Not saying im advocating for these to be included but thats what the book states. Actually everything from HB on doesnt actually benefit much. Its really bolt pistols and more importantly stormbolters that would become broken. Picture deathwing vengeful strikes with relentless 4 shot stormbolters.   

 

Edit- its worth noting that the SoD + twin linked bolters on a fast relentless platform for 27 pts is probably more broken than the SoD on a 42 pt one, even if the latter is more resilient to ap3. Upon further reflection I honestly wonder what GWs next FAQ will read.

 

Maybe I read the rules wrong, but as far as I can see being relentless have no effect on the rate of fire: If you move you shoot 2 shoots at half range- thats 12", if you stand still you fire 4 shoots at full range. So even if the banner affects the landraiders hurricanebolters, it can only shoot 12" "rapidfire" when moving foreward. Still going to be nasty when it gets within range, but still...

[Azrael Turnbull]

 

 

 

Just to play devils advocate the lil' BGB pg.56 under BOLTGUNS lists bolt pistols, boltgun, storm bolter, heavy bolter and vulcan megabolter.

 

Not saying im advocating for these to be included but thats what the book states. Actually everything from HB on doesnt actually benefit much. Its really bolt pistols and more importantly stormbolters that would become broken. Picture deathwing vengeful strikes with relentless 4 shot stormbolters.   

 

Edit- its worth noting that the SoD + twin linked bolters on a fast relentless platform for 27 pts is probably more broken than the SoD on a 42 pt one, even if the latter is more resilient to ap3. Upon further reflection I honestly wonder what GWs next FAQ will read.

 

Maybe I read the rules wrong, but as far as I can see being relentless have no effect on the rate of fire: If you move you shoot 2 shoots at half range- thats 12", if you stand still you fire 4 shoots at full range. So even if the banner affects the landraiders hurricanebolters, it can only shoot 12" "rapidfire" when moving foreward. Still going to be nasty when it gets within range, but still...

 

Both vehicles and the 'Relentless' special rule count as the model being stationary in terms of shooting. Therefore, they will always count as standing still for Salvo weapons. It would seem silly for this to not be the case, as surely they'd be less unwieldy than Heavy Weapons.

[Brother Immolator]

The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules.

To Put it simply:

The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found
as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun.

All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc.

 

Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB.

 

Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo.

[facmanpob]

The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules.

To Put it simply:

The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found

as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun.

All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc.

Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB.

Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo.

Let's not get into questioning people's ability to produce cogent arguments, or indeed decide that everyone who differs in opinion is trying to use shenanigans. I'm certainly not trying to cheat, but I do disagree with your assessment regarding twin-linked weapons. A twin-linked boltgun (and that is how it is written in the digital codex....not TL bolter, but boltgun) still uses the rapid fire profile of a standard boltgun, it just gets to reroll misses. But it is still a boltgun (actually its 2 boltguns side by side on a bike, but that's neither here nor there ) and as far as I am concerned, is still altered by the Standard of Devastation. Same for hurricane bolters as they are listed as 3 TL boltguns.

I do, however, think it is clear that the bolt pistol, storm bolter, Vulcan mega-bolter, Mighty Uber-super-dooper bolter of doom etc etc are not covered by the SoD, because they don't use the 24" Rapid Fire profile of the stock boltgun.

EDIT - I agree with the comments regarding Relentless - I think the rules are crystal clear on that point :)

[Arioch]

Just to play devils advocate the lil' BGB pg.56 under BOLTGUNS lists bolt pistols, boltgun, storm bolter, heavy bolter and vulcan megabolter.

Not saying im advocating for these to be included but thats what the book states. Actually everything from HB on doesnt actually benefit much. Its really bolt pistols and more importantly stormbolters that would become broken. Picture deathwing vengeful strikes with relentless 4 shot stormbolters.

Edit- its worth noting that the SoD + twin linked bolters on a fast relentless platform for 27 pts is probably more broken than the SoD on a 42 pt one, even if the latter is more resilient to ap3. Upon further reflection I honestly wonder what GWs next FAQ will read.

Maybe I read the rules wrong, but as far as I can see being relentless have no effect on the rate of fire: If you move you shoot 2 shoots at half range- thats 12", if you stand still you fire 4 shoots at full range. So even if the banner affects the landraiders hurricanebolters, it can only shoot 12" "rapidfire" when moving foreward. Still going to be nasty when it gets within range, but still...

Both vehicles and the 'Relentless' special rule count as the model being stationary in terms of shooting. Therefore, they will always count as standing still for Salvo weapons. It would seem silly for this to not be the case, as surely they'd be less unwieldy than Heavy Weapons.

Ah I see, didnt think it would work on salvoweapons, thanks for clearing that up

[elphilo]

The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules.

To Put it simply:

The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found

as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun.

All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc.

Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB.

Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo.

Let's not get into questioning people's ability to produce cogent arguments, or indeed decide that everyone who differs in opinion is trying to use shenanigans. I'm certainly not trying to cheat, but I do disagree with your assessment regarding twin-linked weapons. A twin-linked boltgun (and that is how it is written in the digital codex....not TL bolter, but boltgun) still uses the rapid fire profile of a standard boltgun, it just gets to reroll misses. But it is still a boltgun (actually its 2 boltguns side by side on a bike, but that's neither here nor there ) and as far as I am concerned, is still altered by the Standard of Devastation. Same for hurricane bolters as they are listed as 3 TL boltguns.

I do, however, think it is clear that the bolt pistol, storm bolter, Vulcan mega-bolter, Mighty Uber-super-dooper bolter of doom etc etc are not covered by the SoD, because they don't use the 24" Rapid Fire profile of the stock boltgun.

EDIT - I agree with the comments regarding Relentless - I think the rules are crystal clear on that point

I would be more inclined to believe Hurricane bolters were NOT a boltgun, if they had their own specific weapon profile in the reference chart of the Codex. It even says in the armory they are "Twin-linked boltguns." So basically I agree with everything you said facmanpob

Also, I know it's been stated and this point is probably moot. But the relentless rule specifically states it works with Salvo weapons, counting the model as stationary

[Brother Immolator]

The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules.

To Put it simply:

The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found

as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun.

All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc.

Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB.

Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo.

Let's not get into questioning people's ability to produce cogent arguments, or indeed decide that everyone who differs in opinion is trying to use shenanigans. I'm certainly not trying to cheat, but I do disagree with your assessment regarding twin-linked weapons. A twin-linked boltgun (and that is how it is written in the digital codex....not TL bolter, but boltgun) still uses the rapid fire profile of a standard boltgun, it just gets to reroll misses. But it is still a boltgun (actually its 2 boltguns side by side on a bike, but that's neither here nor there ) and as far as I am concerned, is still altered by the Standard of Devastation. Same for hurricane bolters as they are listed as 3 TL boltguns.

I do, however, think it is clear that the bolt pistol, storm bolter, Vulcan mega-bolter, Mighty Uber-super-dooper bolter of doom etc etc are not covered by the SoD, because they don't use the 24" Rapid Fire profile of the stock boltgun.

EDIT - I agree with the comments regarding Relentless - I think the rules are crystal clear on that point

Hey man I wasn't referring directly to you or the ppl on the forum. Neither I am speaking about reasoning ability. I was referring to ppl who turn a blind eye and ignore common sense on purpose (another example would be the command squad/techmarine/servitor HQ supposed issue).

It seems though that lately I am using strong language to express myself. My apologies if anyone felt bad, it was not intentional.

I also agree that the twin-linked and hurricane bolters are still boltguns as I did say that the rule is intended clearly (by virtue of statline as you so correctly said) to encopass them. I tried to put the opinion on the table that particular issue is also addressed via a FAQ since people can call shenanigans even there. After all on both accounts (what is a bolter and the hurricane/twinlinked issues)the rules are crystal clear.

Hence why I have second thoughts of people trying to pull aces out of their sleeves.

In (a perhaps not so) humorous tone, some people suggested that the standard affects vulcan mega bolters too....So yeah....

[facmanpob]

The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules.

To Put it simply:

The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found

as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun.

All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc.

Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB.

Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo.

Let's not get into questioning people's ability to produce cogent arguments, or indeed decide that everyone who differs in opinion is trying to use shenanigans. I'm certainly not trying to cheat, but I do disagree with your assessment regarding twin-linked weapons. A twin-linked boltgun (and that is how it is written in the digital codex....not TL bolter, but boltgun) still uses the rapid fire profile of a standard boltgun, it just gets to reroll misses. But it is still a boltgun (actually its 2 boltguns side by side on a bike, but that's neither here nor there ) and as far as I am concerned, is still altered by the Standard of Devastation. Same for hurricane bolters as they are listed as 3 TL boltguns.

I do, however, think it is clear that the bolt pistol, storm bolter, Vulcan mega-bolter, Mighty Uber-super-dooper bolter of doom etc etc are not covered by the SoD, because they don't use the 24" Rapid Fire profile of the stock boltgun.

EDIT - I agree with the comments regarding Relentless - I think the rules are crystal clear on that point

Hey man I wasn't referring directly to you or the ppl on the forum. Neither I am speaking about reasoning ability. I was referring to ppl who turn a blind eye and ignore common sense on purpose (another example would be the command squad/techmarine/servitor HQ supposed issue).

It seems though that lately I am using strong language to express myself. My apologies if anyone felt bad, it was not intentional.

I also agree that the twin-linked and hurricane bolters are still boltguns as I did say that the rule is intended clearly (by virtue of statline as you so correctly said) to encopass them. I tried to put the opinion on the table that particular issue is also addressed via a FAQ since people can call shenanigans even there. After all on both accounts (what is a bolter and the hurricane/twinlinked issues)the rules are crystal clear.

Hence why I have second thoughts of people trying to pull aces out of their sleeves.

In (a perhaps not so) humorous tone, some people suggested that the standard affects vulcan mega bolters too....So yeah....

I know there's been lots of frustration recently with people trying to claim anything and everything and some of it is misinterpretation of rules and some is tantamount to exploiting/cheating, but you're certainly not one of those. And I know you have been particularly frustrated in some threads with that sort of behaviour. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying regarding TL boltguns, I think we are all on the same page regarding the SoD (and incidentally the Techmarine/servitor issue too).

So to sum up, its all cool with me!

[elphilo]

The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules.

To Put it simply:

The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found

as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun.

All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc.

Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB.

Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo.

Let's not get into questioning people's ability to produce cogent arguments, or indeed decide that everyone who differs in opinion is trying to use shenanigans. I'm certainly not trying to cheat, but I do disagree with your assessment regarding twin-linked weapons. A twin-linked boltgun (and that is how it is written in the digital codex....not TL bolter, but boltgun) still uses the rapid fire profile of a standard boltgun, it just gets to reroll misses. But it is still a boltgun (actually its 2 boltguns side by side on a bike, but that's neither here nor there ) and as far as I am concerned, is still altered by the Standard of Devastation. Same for hurricane bolters as they are listed as 3 TL boltguns.

I do, however, think it is clear that the bolt pistol, storm bolter, Vulcan mega-bolter, Mighty Uber-super-dooper bolter of doom etc etc are not covered by the SoD, because they don't use the 24" Rapid Fire profile of the stock boltgun.

EDIT - I agree with the comments regarding Relentless - I think the rules are crystal clear on that point

Hey man I wasn't referring directly to you or the ppl on the forum. Neither I am speaking about reasoning ability. I was referring to ppl who turn a blind eye and ignore common sense on purpose (another example would be the command squad/techmarine/servitor HQ supposed issue).

It seems though that lately I am using strong language to express myself. My apologies if anyone felt bad, it was not intentional.

I also agree that the twin-linked and hurricane bolters are still boltguns as I did say that the rule is intended clearly (by virtue of statline as you so correctly said) to encopass them. I tried to put the opinion on the table that particular issue is also addressed via a FAQ since people can call shenanigans even there. After all on both accounts (what is a bolter and the hurricane/twinlinked issues)the rules are crystal clear.

Hence why I have second thoughts of people trying to pull aces out of their sleeves.

In (a perhaps not so) humorous tone, some people suggested that the standard affects vulcan mega bolters too....So yeah....

I know there's been lots of frustration recently with people trying to claim anything and everything and some of it is misinterpretation of rules and some is tantamount to exploiting/cheating, but you're certainly not one of those. And I know you have been particularly frustrated in some threads with that sort of behaviour. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying regarding TL boltguns, I think we are all on the same page regarding the SoD (and incidentally the Techmarine/servitor issue too).

So to sum up, its all cool with me!

Nope, I demand an honorific duel! Winner gets bragging rights and their opponents ceremonial blade :P

[Brom MKIV]

I am building a list to abuse the SoD's potential, and I am only applying its effects to bolters. That said there is definitely a broad margin for interpretation here. How many people thought that typhus zombies would be FAQ'd to say max 10 models "because more would obviously be broken"? This is a similar issue IMO, and one that could easily swing either direction.

 

Regarding dex > BGB, pg. 60 of C:DA states "rules for the following weapons can be found in the warhammer 40k rulebook."

 

Bottom line, for me, is that until GW addresses the issue I will play the least powerful interpretation, as is my custom. However, if we evaluate the SoD I really dont see the more powerful interpretation being all that broken. The SoD pretty much dictates your entire list and resides within a limited sized unit which is either very fragile (3 bikes) or has limited mobility (DW) or both (PA cmd squad). Ya 4 shot stormbolters SEEM good, on paper, but id argue that 4 shot twin linked bikes for 27 pts are FAR BETTER.

 

Either way you pay heftily for the salvo ability and bring a lynchpin/achilles heal that can and will be exploited. Conversely weapons like heavy bolters see very marginal benefit while bigger guns like the vulkan mega bolter get hit with a serious nerf hammer man going for 15 shots to 4 Lol. Evaluating the bolt pistol we see that it gains rate of fire. However, most units with BPs are not only assault oriented but are also not relentless so they become pretty much worthless!  

 

Again I will play the safer interpretation but I wouldnt be surprised if GW rules the other direction. If they did I really dont think id suddenly spam stormbolters or bolt  pistols as opposed to bikes which still feel superior to me.