Brother Immolator Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules. To Put it simply: The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun. All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc. Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB. Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo. Let's not get into questioning people's ability to produce cogent arguments, or indeed decide that everyone who differs in opinion is trying to use shenanigans. I'm certainly not trying to cheat, but I do disagree with your assessment regarding twin-linked weapons. A twin-linked boltgun (and that is how it is written in the digital codex....not TL bolter, but boltgun) still uses the rapid fire profile of a standard boltgun, it just gets to reroll misses. But it is still a boltgun (actually its 2 boltguns side by side on a bike, but that's neither here nor there ) and as far as I am concerned, is still altered by the Standard of Devastation. Same for hurricane bolters as they are listed as 3 TL boltguns. I do, however, think it is clear that the bolt pistol, storm bolter, Vulcan mega-bolter, Mighty Uber-super-dooper bolter of doom etc etc are not covered by the SoD, because they don't use the 24" Rapid Fire profile of the stock boltgun. EDIT - I agree with the comments regarding Relentless - I think the rules are crystal clear on that point Hey man I wasn't referring directly to you or the ppl on the forum. Neither I am speaking about reasoning ability. I was referring to ppl who turn a blind eye and ignore common sense on purpose (another example would be the command squad/techmarine/servitor HQ supposed issue). It seems though that lately I am using strong language to express myself. My apologies if anyone felt bad, it was not intentional. I also agree that the twin-linked and hurricane bolters are still boltguns as I did say that the rule is intended clearly (by virtue of statline as you so correctly said) to encopass them. I tried to put the opinion on the table that particular issue is also addressed via a FAQ since people can call shenanigans even there. After all on both accounts (what is a bolter and the hurricane/twinlinked issues)the rules are crystal clear. Hence why I have second thoughts of people trying to pull aces out of their sleeves. In (a perhaps not so) humorous tone, some people suggested that the standard affects vulcan mega bolters too....So yeah.... I know there's been lots of frustration recently with people trying to claim anything and everything and some of it is misinterpretation of rules and some is tantamount to exploiting/cheating, but you're certainly not one of those. And I know you have been particularly frustrated in some threads with that sort of behaviour. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying regarding TL boltguns, I think we are all on the same page regarding the SoD (and incidentally the Techmarine/servitor issue too). So to sum up, its all cool with me! Nope, I demand an honorific duel! Winner gets bragging rights and their opponents ceremonial blade The whole arguement as to what a boltgun is moot if someone is willing to put logic behind his/hers train of thought and doesnt want to use shenanigans but be true to the rules. To Put it simply: The only weapons in the wargear section named boltgun are the ones found as stock gear for our Tac, dev and scout squads. Also in whatever instance said upgrade is referenced to it is refered again as boltgun. All other variants are not named boltguns. They are named by their appropriate name: I.E. stormbolter, boltpistol etc etc. Hurricane bolters and twinlinked bolters by virtue of fluff been boltguns RAW cannot be boltguns, although RAI certainly are. The only FAQ therefore is about those two instances. The codex is explecit in what a boltgun is. We dont care what the rulebook says because Codex>BRB. Azrael Turnbul is also correct on the relentless rule. Since whatever has that rule is counting as stationary, it therefore can take advantage of the salvo. Let's not get into questioning people's ability to produce cogent arguments, or indeed decide that everyone who differs in opinion is trying to use shenanigans. I'm certainly not trying to cheat, but I do disagree with your assessment regarding twin-linked weapons. A twin-linked boltgun (and that is how it is written in the digital codex....not TL bolter, but boltgun) still uses the rapid fire profile of a standard boltgun, it just gets to reroll misses. But it is still a boltgun (actually its 2 boltguns side by side on a bike, but that's neither here nor there ) and as far as I am concerned, is still altered by the Standard of Devastation. Same for hurricane bolters as they are listed as 3 TL boltguns. I do, however, think it is clear that the bolt pistol, storm bolter, Vulcan mega-bolter, Mighty Uber-super-dooper bolter of doom etc etc are not covered by the SoD, because they don't use the 24" Rapid Fire profile of the stock boltgun. EDIT - I agree with the comments regarding Relentless - I think the rules are crystal clear on that point Hey man I wasn't referring directly to you or the ppl on the forum. Neither I am speaking about reasoning ability. I was referring to ppl who turn a blind eye and ignore common sense on purpose (another example would be the command squad/techmarine/servitor HQ supposed issue). It seems though that lately I am using strong language to express myself. My apologies if anyone felt bad, it was not intentional. I also agree that the twin-linked and hurricane bolters are still boltguns as I did say that the rule is intended clearly (by virtue of statline as you so correctly said) to encopass them. I tried to put the opinion on the table that particular issue is also addressed via a FAQ since people can call shenanigans even there. After all on both accounts (what is a bolter and the hurricane/twinlinked issues)the rules are crystal clear. Hence why I have second thoughts of people trying to pull aces out of their sleeves. In (a perhaps not so) humorous tone, some people suggested that the standard affects vulcan mega bolters too....So yeah.... I know there's been lots of frustration recently with people trying to claim anything and everything and some of it is misinterpretation of rules and some is tantamount to exploiting/cheating, but you're certainly not one of those. And I know you have been particularly frustrated in some threads with that sort of behaviour. Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying regarding TL boltguns, I think we are all on the same page regarding the SoD (and incidentally the Techmarine/servitor issue too). So to sum up, its all cool with me! Nope, I demand an honorific duel! Winner gets bragging rights and their opponents ceremonial blade You can have mine without a duel, its useless anyway. :Looks at the blade of Caliban entry again just to be sure. Yup sure is here you go :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 LOL, not this can of worms again :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!? It has worms too???? TAKE THE DAMN THING AWAY!!! Ok I am done spamming :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onisuzume Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 To me: boltguns. Exactly what it says: "... treat their boltguns as..." . It does not say or add anything else. No storm, super, heavy, combi, water- or hurricane bolters. You can counter this argument by the fact that a Twin-Linked Bolter does not have it's own weapon entry in the summary page. It's therefore a Twin-Linked "Bolter" and not a "Twin-Linked Bolter". The Hurricane Bolter is pushing a little bit, but as it counts as the previously mentioned Twin-Linked Bolters, nothing is certain. Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters etc... Well, that's just silly. Can you imagine a Bolt Pistol firing 4 shots a turn at 24" range? Do you think this is what the Workshop had in mind? I'm glad to see that none of the above posters do. Source for 24" range on bolt pistols? My books give them only 12" range, with the salvo rule only mentioning move&fire up to half maximum range, or stationary and firing up to full maximum range. Which would let the bolt pistol fire either 2 shots up to 6" range, or 4 shots up to 12". Not that it matters, of course, since bolt pistols probably aren't affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Turnbull Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 To me: boltguns. Exactly what it says: "... treat their boltguns as..." . It does not say or add anything else. No storm, super, heavy, combi, water- or hurricane bolters. You can counter this argument by the fact that a Twin-Linked Bolter does not have it's own weapon entry in the summary page. It's therefore a Twin-Linked "Bolter" and not a "Twin-Linked Bolter". The Hurricane Bolter is pushing a little bit, but as it counts as the previously mentioned Twin-Linked Bolters, nothing is certain. Bolt Pistols, Heavy Bolters etc... Well, that's just silly. Can you imagine a Bolt Pistol firing 4 shots a turn at 24" range? Do you think this is what the Workshop had in mind? I'm glad to see that none of the above posters do. Source for 24" range on bolt pistols? My books give them only 12" range, with the salvo rule only mentioning move&fire up to half maximum range, or stationary and firing up to full maximum range. Which would let the bolt pistol fire either 2 shots up to 6" range, or 4 shots up to 12". Not that it matters, of course, since bolt pistols probably aren't affected. No source. I just remember the codex giving the entire new weapon profile, rather than saying replace Rapid Fire with Salvo 2/4. Obviously, I remembered incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anabis_Xero Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 something else, in my codex my tactical marines and all the like have boltguns, not bolters and in the wargear section its a boltgun not a bolter. From what i can find we dont have "bolters" we have boltguns, to logicly that means bolter = boltgun in the DA codex. But just imagine if we had tactical marines armed with vulcan megabolters :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barek Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 something else, in my codex my tactical marines and all the like have boltguns, not bolters and in the wargear section its a boltgun not a bolter. From what i can find we dont have "bolters" we have boltguns, to logicly that means bolter = boltgun in the DA codex. But just imagine if we had tactical marines armed with vulcan megabolters Exactly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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