Allies rules broken?

[Bat33.1]

Has anybody been over to beastsofwar and seen their latest video on cheesy rules reading?

 

The short version is Rules as Written - Allies of Convenience are treated as 'enemy' units which you can't shoot, charge, or use psychic powers on P112 big rule book, P123 controlling objectives - no 'enemy' unit within 3" of objectives = denial unit.

 

Desperate Allies are non denial and non scoring - so can't score for you or deny objectives to opponent. 

 

They also show a scenario with Necrons and SM Terminators as AoC that end up locked in combat with each other after a multi charge by nids. It's a bit of theory hammer type stuff but works as an example.

 

In fairness they are trying to push the rules as they are ETC players and are looking to clear this up for tourney play and want an FAQ from GW to sort this out. Rules as intended is no defence as you cannot know what the designer intended the rules to show in every instance. 

 

Thoughts?

[Morollan]

I wouldn't trust the Beasts of War guys to sit the right way up on a toilet. The last load of nonsense I saw by them involved supposedly "truly immortal" Necrons based on, and I quote, "Badly written rules". What it in fact was based on was "Poorly read rules" and "Not read at all" codex entries.

[dswanick]

I wouldn't trust the Beasts of War guys to sit the right way up on a toilet. The last load of nonsense I saw by them involved supposedly "truly immortal" Necrons based on, and I quote, "Badly written rules". What it in fact was based on was "Poorly read rules" and "Not read at all" codex entries.

Agreed. Those morays are the same morays who tried to bring us the IC "slingshot" compliments of not reading and understanding the rules for attaching and detaching ICs from units.

[Bat33.1]

Well I'd like somebody to shoot this one down in flames too, but, as I read the relevant BRB sections it appears that they are correct on this occasion?

[dswanick]

Well I'd like somebody to shoot this one down in flames too, but, as I read the relevant BRB sections it appears that they are correct on this occasion?

Why don't you post a link to the relevant video, so we're all definitely debating the same scenario.

[Bat33.1]

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/cheese-hunters-allies-convenience-super-cheese/ wasn't sure if I was allowed but here you go

[Axagoras]

A ally of convience on its own can hold a objective on its own (next to your guys WAR they deny it so keep them away from your troops) and yes technically WAR the purge the alien would give you kill points but good luck finding someone for casual play to agree to that and for a judge to as well (although ive seen judges say vulkan doesnt TL vehicles because that would be broke as the reason lol). But these guys are like the people who have a wall of newspaper clippings with string connecting articles together and they claim it proves half life 3 is coming out... Just use common sense.

[jeffersonian000]

..... Just don't take allies that aren't Battle Brothers? Seems like that fixes that problem.

 

SJ

[Axagoras]

Why would you do that jeffersonian? If you keep them 3 inches away they dont screw you over, and who needs 2 troops on 1 objective anyway lol

[dswanick]

Part 1:

1. Allies of Convenience are denial units if within 3" of any objective you are trying to score.

- True, and - so what? Not broken, possibly even intended.

 

2. Allies of Convenience and Desperate Allies are enemy units for Kill Points.

- True, and again - so what? They count for Kill Points for both you and your opponent, thus counting for nothing. Again, not broken and possibly intentional.

 

3. As Enemy units, "you can't benefit from Enemy unit special rules".

- That's a vague paraphrasing. Most special rules have been errata'd and FAQ'd to not cross between Allied and Primary detachments. And the few that haven't usually have other stipulations attached which clarify their functioning.

 

Part 2:

1. The part where BoW wants Terminators and Necrons to Pile In to each other as "enemy models".

- This is a failure to read all the rules. The BRB, pg.23, I Step Pile In states "These moves (Pile In moves)follow the same rules as moving charging models, except that they are not slowed by Difficult terrain(though it may still trigger Dangerous terrain tests).". And what are Allies not allowed to do? Be "charge, shot, target with Psychic Powers or have blast and template weapons placed over them" - BRB, pg.112.

 

2+ All other points fail, because your Allied "Enemy" models will never have permission to be in base contact.

[company veteran]

enemy units cant capture/deny objectives? so my opponent cant capture/deny any objectives???

[dswanick]

enemy units cant capture/deny objectives? so my opponent cant capture/deny any objectives???

Not for you, they can't. And you can't capture objectives for your opponent - but then again, why would you want to?

[Azash]

 

Part 2:

1. The part where BoW wants Terminators and Necrons to Pile In to each other as "enemy models".

- This is a failure to read all the rules. The BRB, pg.23, I Step Pile In states "These moves (Pile In moves)follow the same rules as moving charging models, except that they are not slowed by Difficult terrain(though it may still trigger Dangerous terrain tests).". And what are Allies not allowed to do? Be "charge, shot, target with Psychic Powers or have blast and template weapons placed over them" - BRB, pg.112.

 

2+ All other points fail, because your Allied "Enemy" models will never have permission to be in base contact.

 

Actually I believe your extrapolating allot from the section "folllow the same rules as moving charging models...". If I follow your logic your taking that to mean that a Pile in move since it follows the same rules in regards to moving into base to base contact a pile in is therefore a charge. That is a big leap your taking given the fact that the rule book actually defines what a charge move is.

 

In SRB pg 20 it states "Choose a unit in your army that is declaring a charge and nominate the enemy unit(s) it is attempting to charge". So by your logic to perform a pile in you would have to declare a charge because a pile in is a charge. So since you are unable to declare a charge when it is not your turn it would be impossible for the unit(s) being charged to ever pile. Don't think that meets RAW or RAI.

 

On SRB pg 21 it defines a charge move, "The charging unit now moves into close combat with the unit(s) it has declared a charge against - this is called a charge move".

 

I underlined the key statement in the sentence that this discussion seems to swing on. Without these six words your interpretation would be correct.

 

So lets spit ball out the scenario here.

 

SM Terminators declare a charge against Necrons and Imperial Guard. Per the rule on pg 21 the only unit making a charge here is the SM Terminators because they are the only one that can declare a charge. The Necrons can not declare a charge on the SM players turn so any movements they perform are not a charge same with the IG allies.

 

The definition of a Pile In per pg 23  "A pile in move is a 3" move performed in the following order....". Yes it does say they follow the same rules as charging models but in point of fact they are not charging since it does not meet the definition of a charge move per pg 21.

 

All the allies rule stipulates is Allies of Convenience can't charge each other; so the SM Terminators couldn't charge the single model SoB squad on turn 6 for a quick kill point at the end of the game.

 

At least that's what I got from it given the definition of a charge move. Also I don't think this breaks the allies rules I don't think the Necrons were meant to be out there Bro fisting it with space marines unless the the circumstances drove them to it and in which case there would be some consequences and draw backs to it.

[dswanick]

Actually I believe your extrapolating allot from the section "folllow the same rules as moving charging models...". If I follow your logic your taking that to mean that a Pile in move since it follows the same rules in regards to moving into base to base contact a pile in is therefore a charge.

Actually, it's you who are extrapolating a lot from what I posted. I never claimed that Pile In moves are Charge moves.

 

Pile In moves follow all the rules for Charge moves except where altered by the Pile In move rules. One of the rules for Charge moves is that it may not be used to achieve base contact with an allied model. This is not the same thing as declaring that Pile In moves = Charge moves. Simply that any rule that applies to a Charge move also applies to a Pile In move, including not coming into base contact with an allied model.

[Spacefrisian]

Dunno about others but i dont find their cheese that cheesy, tends to melt very fast, especialy that Necron tactic (wich was illegal anyway, Necron courts with Necron destroyer lords.)

[Azash]

Actually, it's you who are extrapolating a lot from what I posted. I never claimed that Pile In moves are Charge moves.

 

Pile In moves follow all the rules for Charge moves except where altered by the Pile In move rules. One of the rules for Charge moves is that it may not be used to achieve base contact with an allied model. This is not the same thing as declaring that Pile In moves = Charge moves. Simply that any rule that applies to a Charge move also applies to a Pile In move, including not coming into base contact with an allied model.

 

So lets go through this systematically cause it can get very fuzzy very quick.

 

1. Are charge moves the same as pile in moves? I think based on your last post we are in agreement here that they are not.

 

2. Do pile in's follow the same rules as charges except where the pile in move specifically states something to the contrary? I think we are in agreement here as well.

 

So the crux of the matter of "can you be forced to pile into an ally of convenience model on a pile in move comes down to the rules regarding allies of convenience.

 

Pg 112 SRB:

Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.

 

So sine the language as written "units that cannot be charged" and we both agree that pile in and charge moves are different this would not prevent you from piling into an ally of convenience.

 

Yes yes I know your trying to make the argument that since pile in moves follow all the rules of a charge move this would prevent this. However even if a pile in move still follows all the rules of a charge move it is still (as you and I both pointed out) not a charge. This rule does not say they can not be moved into, piled into, it says specifically (very specifically i might add) "units that cannot be charged".

 

To charge a unit you must meet the following conditions

 

Pg 20 & 21 SRB (instead of quoting both pages i will just hit the high points):

 

"To resolve a charge, use the following procedure".

 

Declare Charge - Resolve Overwatch - Roll Charge Range - Charge Move - Then we move into the fight sub phase but that's not relevant to the discussion.

 

Pg 23 SRB:

"These moves follow the same rules as moving charging models except they are not slowed by difficult terrain. Also, a Pile in move cannot be used to contact units that are not already involved in the assault."

 

So the whole point hinges clearly on this. The rule on pg 112 refers to the whole process of the charge (Declare, Resolve, Roll, Move, Fight, etc) while pile in simple states that you follow the rules regarding charge move. No where under charge move does it say you can not enter into base to base with an ally of convenience. No where under allies of convienience does it say you can not combat your your allies it only states you can't charge them.

 

So basically.

1. Allies of convenience are denial units to your own units if both are within 3".

2. Allies of convenience are still scoring units for you as long as condition 1 is not in effect (means there better than desperate allies).

3. They are not enemy units in relation to you the player just your units so they do not score points for your opponent nor do you get kill points when they die off.

4. Yes if you put them to close an opponent could force you into a close combat where your main and allied contingent troops could pile into each other and fight it out. (Although easily avoidable if you just keep yourself more than 5 inches away from each other)

 

Does not seem cheesy at all. I remember one of the great concerns when the rumors of allies came out before 6th edition was launched was the fact that this would imbalance the game. By allowing allot of "cheesy" (there is that word again) army combinations and destroying the balance of the game and generally trashing the fluff.

 

What this in fact does is make everything make a little more sense. It makes those "cheesy" combinations have more consequences and while still possible it requires greater maneuvering, consideration, and table top handling by the player making that choice. In effect it attempts to balance those issues and put the fluff into the game so you don't get zombie life force devouring robots who kill anyone for even landing on their planet's running about bro fisting everyone and their brother.

 

But a really do hope GW comes out with an FAQ on this cause especially when it comes to tournaments people do tend to love there cheese so if there is any wiggle room they will argue it till the cows come home to hold onto it if they think it gives them a competitive advantage. I can see both view points of this rule causing some ugly at tournaments if the TO is not aware of this issue going in and has an interpretation and ruling in place.

[Morollan]

 

Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging.

 

Surely this (page 21) puts the whole idea back where it belongs? Pile in moves are treated exactly as charge moves except where specifically noted otherwise, which I think we all agree on. The only exceptions noted are that they are not slowed by difficult terrain and cannot be used to contact units that are not

already involved in the assault. Neither of which overrides the previous restriction that you cannot move into base contact with models from a unit you are not charging. Are you charging your allies? No.

[dswanick]

 

Charging models still cannot move through friendly or enemy models, cannot pass through gaps narrower than their base, and cannot move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not charging.

 

Surely this (page 21) puts the whole idea back where it belongs? Pile in moves are treated exactly as charge moves except where specifically noted otherwise, which I think we all agree on. The only exceptions noted are that they are not slowed by difficult terrain and cannot be used to contact units that are not

already involved in the assault. Neither of which overrides the previous restriction that you cannot move into base contact with models from a unit you are not charging. Are you charging your allies? No.

No, because the Pile In rules alters this to "enemy units locked in the combat". That's what's confusing the BoW guys.

 

Maybe this will be helpful:

Rules of a Move (at least the relevant ones)

- optional, declared in your Movement phase

- up to 6"

- May not move within 1" of an enemy model

- Slowed by Difficult Terrain

- Subject to Dangerous Terrain

 

Rules of a Charge Move ( a Charge Move is a Move with excpetions)

- optional, declared in your Movement phase, declared in your Assault phase

- up to 6", up to 2d6"

- May not move within 1" of an enemy model, may move into base contact with models from the charged unit (in fact, must given several other applicable rules)

- may not be used to base contact an Allied model

- Slowed by Difficult Terrain (although the method it is slowed is altered)

- Subject to Dangerous Terrain

 

Rules for a Pile In Move (which follow all the rules for a Charge Move, with exceptions)

- optional, declared in your Movement phase, declared in your Assault phase, mandatory, must be performed at the appropriate Initiative step of your Fight subphase

- up to 6", up to 2d6", up to 3"

- May not move within 1" of an enemy model, may move into base contact with models from the charged unit, may move into base contact with an enemy model locked in the combat (in fact, must given several other applicable rules)

- may not be used to base contact an Allied model

- Slowed by Difficult Terrain (although the method it is slowed is altered), not slowed by difficult terain

- Subject to Dangerous Terrain

 

Now, unless I'm missing something somewhere, the prohibition is still in place that you can not move into base contact with an Allied model because that is a rule of Charge moves which is not expressly altered by the Pile In moves.

[jeffersonian000]

You guys do realize that Beasts of War request for their viewers to challenge them on their assumptions? To find where they are wrong and let them know?

 

I find it interesting that people will calling them on their proposed "tactics", when in fact they are just pointing out a possible exploit that hopefuly is not a real loophole. All you have to do is reply on their forum how and why that exploit doesn't work, and all is good. Running around like the sky is falling and blasting them for cheese shows just how much people actually bother to pay attention to their videos.

 

As to why I posted "don't use allies other the Battle Brother to fix the problem" ... because that what fix the problem? If you are worried about how some TO will rules on your Allies of Convenience or Desperate Allies, then don't use them. If you aren't worried about it, why change how you play?

 

SJ

[Morollan]

@dswanick - I'm not seeing the "may not be used to base contact an Allied model" part. Where is this from?

[dswanick]

@dswanick - I'm not seeing the "may not be used to base contact an Allied model" part. Where is this from?

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.", BRB, pg.112

 

Base Move rules prohibit models from approaching closer than 1" to "enemy models".  Charge moves are the moves that eliminate the 1" rule of the normal Movement rules and allow Base Contact.  Charge moves can not be used in this way against Allied units.  Pile In moves inherit this from Charge moves.

[dswanick]

Here's some food-for-thought:

 

If

- a 'Pile In' move is not a 'Charge' move, even though it follows all the rules for Charges (with some explicit exceptions)

- and is therefore not prohibited by a prohibition on 'Charging' Allies

 

then

- 'Charges' are not 'Moves', even though they follow the rules for Moves (with some explicit exceptions)

 

therefore

- can an Immobilized Dreadnought 'Charge'?  An Immobilized Dreadnought is prohibited from 'Moving' and 'Pivoting', as well as making 'Pile Ins', 'Consolidations', and 'Sweeping Advances' but not 'Charging'.

[Morollan]

I see. I was looking in the Movement section and not the allies section.

[Azash]

 

@dswanick - I'm not seeing the "may not be used to base contact an Allied model" part. Where is this from?

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.", BRB, pg.112

 

Base Move rules prohibit models from approaching closer than 1" to "enemy models".  Charge moves are the moves that eliminate the 1" rule of the normal Movement rules and allow Base Contact.  Charge moves can not be used in this way against Allied units.  Pile In moves inherit this from Charge moves.

 

This is the point of my last post.

 

The rule states..."cannot be charged" this means you cannot charge them. To Charge a unit you must satisfy the following conditions for your action to be a charge.

 

Declare a charge, Resolve Overwatch, Roll Charge Range, and Charge move.  This is defined on page 20 which defines what a charge is.

 

 

Pile in follows the rules of a charge move not a charge key point here charge move is defined on page 21 as a charge move not a charge. Which means they are different if they have different conditions, definitions, and rules.

 

So while the rules state you can not charge an allied unit, piling in does not count as a charge because it follows the rules of a charge move not a charge. So there is nothing in the allied rules that prevent you from piling into an allied unit. The rules prevent you from declaring a charge in same manner as they prevent you from directly targeting them with a shooting attack.

[dswanick]

@dswanick - I'm not seeing the "may not be used to base contact an Allied model" part. Where is this from?

"Units in your army treat Allies of Convenience as enemy units that cannot be charged, shot, targeted with psychic powers or have templates or blast markers placed over them.", BRB, pg.112

Base Move rules prohibit models from approaching closer than 1" to "enemy models". Charge moves are the moves that eliminate the 1" rule of the normal Movement rules and allow Base Contact. Charge moves can not be used in this way against Allied units. Pile In moves inherit this from Charge moves.

This is the point of my last post.

The rule states..."cannot be charged" this means you cannot charge them. To Charge a unit you must satisfy the following conditions for your action to be a charge.

Declare a charge, Resolve Overwatch, Roll Charge Range, and Charge move. This is defined on page 20 which defines what a charge is.

Pile in follows the rules of a charge move not a charge key point here charge move is defined on page 21 as a charge move not a charge. Which means they are different if they have different conditions, definitions, and rules.

So while the rules state you can not charge an allied unit, piling in does not count as a charge because it follows the rules of a charge move not a charge. So there is nothing in the allied rules that prevent you from piling into an allied unit. The rules prevent you from declaring a charge in same manner as they prevent you from directly targeting them with a shooting attack.

So then, you're OK with an Immobilized Dreadnought Charging?