Let's talk about BA: Thoughts & Questions

[Chado23]

             Let me start of saying that I am a new guy, both in Warhammer 40k and BA. My game number is pretty low, and I constantly look about new ideas and information about my army, our army. This will be the summary of many different things I saw , and questions popping up.  

 

             Also, I want to try at a point to create a tactica about BA, concentrating all the little bits of knowledge that are spread through Bolter and Chainsword. 

 

Players and Tactics:

 

            A first revelation was that the brother Captains (yes, all you fellow Blood Angels player) can be divided in two major categories.

 

       1) 5th thinkers

       2) 6th thinkers

 

      The first group of people is the ones that played BA in the previous edition, and continue to use their previous gaming style. A characteristic is not the use of Tactical Marines. This usually employes kinds of DOA mostly. Some argue that having assault changed, that straight forward tactics, solely, won't win you games. In smaller points, like 1000, the use of 3x10-ASR-MM , StormRaven + something else (usually Mephiston or DC with Jump Packs or Vangaurd Veterans less often) can do from decent to good.

 

 

      The second group of people are the ones that hang from the previous statement. Assault can't win you the game and so the question arises: What does? What was boosted in 6th edition?

 

For most the answer is : Shooting.

     

       That way 6th thinkers try to hybrid the Assault and the Shooting element with the superb quality of the Sons of Sanguinius, mobility. In 6th-thinker Army Lists it's more usual to see the formation :

 

2x10- ASR - MM, (Sergeant: Power Fist or Power Weapon( Sword or Axe) , metlabombs)

1*x10 Tactical Marines

 

          *The number might be 2 if there is only one ASR and rarely 3 under 2000 points.

 

      Also, it's common to see that 6th-thinkers use Power Weapon instead of Fist. The second one might instill fear to your opponent , especially to one that knows what a Power Fist can do, and for sure it can bend light tanks for breakfast. Still, the 6th-thinkers argue that the challenge changed Fists importance turning to Power Weapon (Sword) to hit at the regular initiative. With charge and a Priest (for FnP) nearby it's possible to win the combat (or at least survive it).

 

        It must be noted that it has been noticed a new sub-wave at the 6th-thinkers especially after the new DA, the After-DA-thinkers (ADT).  The logic is straight forward. How to kill terminators ? Don't CC them and shoot them. What kills better a terminator? Plasma and melta. Most favour plasma though for more shoots (with divination librarian) more possible wounds, (though melta can instant-kill). 

 

          Thus, ADT think the phrase "plasma plasma everywhere". Tactical is their usual choice for extra plasma (often in a drop pod, less usual a Rhino (not that famous these days)).

 

--So, the first question is what do you think about the above dear Brother. Are broad school of thought that could be added up?

 

       

          Next, section I wish to issue is about some "dilemmas". 

 

          Heavy Support: 

            At least one StormRaven is a must to be in most list.

 

          Devastator:

             They can vary in builds, and can offer a lot of dakka and support that we all to have to our aid  but there is also a weakness  I am not sure that is helping. Their immobility. The choice of movement and the option to castle or not, and gift of mobility to follow the flow of the game seem a lot to give up. 

 

          Predator:

              TLAC/LC or /HB or TLLC/HB seem the best choice. TLLC/LC seems to point cost for my taste. Predator seems a good choice for in my book.

 

          Vindicator:

               Str10 Ap2, nice. Well, it's 12" movement + 24"iches seems mid to short range.

 

So yes, I personally have a bit trouble choosing Heavy Support (they all seem so good), but seems right to take any of tank choices in couple.

 

         

          Back on the fear of the TEQ and the idea of "Plasma... Plasma everywhere". The best way might  be Sternguards, 7-10 with combi-plasma, meltagun in a drop pod. Though I fear it might become a sink in the points pretty quickly.

 

 

        Hammers:

             Hammers or Punch is what we (in the the local club) call the heavy damage deliverer. Terminator might not be as popular as before (seems harder to bring closer). 

Vanguard Veterans might be good because  Heroic Intervention but overwatch can become dangerous some times. Still , this is an option I want to look deeper into.

 

DC. 5-7 with jump packs or 7-10 with boltguns in a pod.  Both are interesting options. First one though seems more risky as getting them to the opponent starts to seem harder with every new codex.

 

--Give a post below on what do opinions about these topics and let me know what you would like to see in a tactica (so we might start gathering some info).

 

 

[Chaplain Admetus]

Devastators are extremely useful for anchoring a firebase. Scoring in 1/6th of the missions (so occasionally relevant), 130 points nets you 5 guys with 4 missile launchers. Reasonable to bust light-medium armour (anything above AV12 is risky/desperation) and good for dropping hordes with templates. Even reasonable against MEQ. They're also not as static as one might think...I'll see if I can scrounge up a battle report where I use that exact tactic, along with a drop pod, to beat a Grey Knight army. I'd leave regular predators at home (Baals are better, in my opinion), and ditto the Vindicator; its scary, its a fire magnet, and its a lot better on paper than on the tabletop. Much as I hate to say it, I'd also have a storm raven in most lists now as its our best anti-flyer option (I'd be very wary of running an all-comers list without something which I'm confident can zap fliers).

 

Tactical squads are also solid this edition, I run mine in a rhino but some others aren't that brave/foolish. Pet theory (caveat is I've not tested the specific build): 10 tac marines, ML, plasma/melta, razor with t-l assault cannon. 5 stay back with the devs, other 5 move forward for mobile fire support.

 

Going to have to leave as I have somewhere to be in 10 minutes, but will update this when I get back with further thoughts.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

The main thing I notice about  Blood Angels in 6th edition is that any meaningful discussion about the Death Company is woefully absent from threads.  People seem to forget that despite being utterly useless and overcosted in 5th, the Death Company is one of the best units in any army in 6th.

 

I wouldn't ever field a competitive list of BA in 6th without a sizable DC contingent.  

 

The other thing that people seem to get wrong is that BA are not freaking tyranids.  Just because we are baller in assault doesn't mean that assaulting should be the first option in a game with guns.  It means that we shoot, and then when things get personal we have an edge.  

 

Between Baal Predators and Stormravens, BA can lay down some seriously withering fire without ever lifting a chainsword.  

 

Furthermore, we have roughly universal access to FnP, which gives us yet a further edge in terms of survivability compared to other MEQ armies, and this really needs to be utilized in order to fully activate the power of our army.

 

The basic philosophy of a competitive BA player should be that we are basically a BALANCED army, just like codex marines, but we have certain advantages such as Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, AM troops, fast tanks, and pinpoint deepstriking that skew us towards playing a proactive rather than reactive game.  

 

The counterweight to our playstyle are Space Wolves, which is actually a less balanced army, but skew more towards being reactive, given their special Long Fang rules, and broad access to counterattacking units.  

 

I think that the core of every competitive BA list should be:

 

2 tactical squads or assault squads broken into combat squads for scoring.

 

2 Sanguinary priests to add FnP to increase durability.

 

8-10 Bolter DC in a drop pod

 

Stormraven

 

Mephiston.

 

Beyond that there is plenty to have a lively discussion about, but the notion that BA are not viable competitively in 6th is simply wrong.  

[ianj253]

I love DC, but always end up not taking them competitively because I take Mephiston instead. Generally he can do anything they can and more. 

[SamaNagol]

Apart from reliably deal with 2+ infantry

 

I run a Rune Priest (better than our librarians), 3 Grey Hunter packs (cheaper and superior to our tacticals) in Drop Pods with Wolf Guard terminator Pack Leader, a Pack of Wolf Guard in Power Armour with combi weapons (considerably cheaper than Sternguard) in a drop pod.

 

Then ally in Mephiston, 8 Death Co, 5 sniper Scouts and I fling in a Storm Raven to go up from 1500 to 1750.

 

BA are good when their holes are filled by allies.

 

I'd definitely look into allying them as a secondary with Ravenwing the primary by throwing in Bike Libby, Bike Priests and ASM and 3 Melta Attack Bikes.

[ianj253]

True, but I think he makes up for it by being able to deal with tanks and MC. I find the best way to get rid of 2+ is burying them in shots. That's what my two Baal preds are for!

[Morticon]

A lot of my list design revolves around trying to balance the damage output of a unit to the resilience of the army/unit.  

 

Recently, however, I'm finding that the BA core is sadly lacking.  The current trend is for cheaper core troops and sadly we just dont have that. If we want to include FNP we have to throw in another KP and a priest tax. FC has lost the Init bonus, meaning the benefit we're granted in assault is minimal (all old hat now).  My issue is that if I dont want to rely on a 160 points for a fast razor with five guys and a flamer, my other options feel a lot less efficient.  235 points for a 10 man assault squad + 90 for the priest.  That averages to around 30 points a model. And theyre only effective when in range, yet if you deepstrike, you have a lot of the board.  Tacs in Rhinos are not too bad now, but theyre still quite pricey and their damage output is minimal. 255 points nets me a Rhino and a Tac squad with Las, Flmr, Fist. But if theyre playing aggressive, what do they do when they get to their target?  The only bonus they have is FNP and FC - and the charge is now mostly unlikely to happen. 

 

I find no fault with the majority of BA periphery units - Furiosos/DC/Ravens/Baals/Mephy/Vanguard - all of these are amazing.  But, I struggle to get a core that can put out enough damage. 

 

In my last few tournies ive been playing 4 razor squads (640 points).  It's 4 independent squads of 20 guys that, thanks to their armoured shells, dont get nuked too quickly and thanks to their armament can do more than their fair share.

 

Im 100% with Sama when he says that we need allies to fill the gap.  

I feel that allies can fill and supplement our core, while the rest of our units do what they do well- kill stuff. 

 

Grey Hunters for example are around the same price as our tac squads, but far, far superior. 

IG are great for cheap troop scoring too.

DA are also very good now with 90point 5man lascaddy squads for home plate claiming - not to mention 65point librarians (with prescience). 

Never mind all their other bling, the fact that you can get 2 sturdy claiming units from your allies and a boost to your assault element is pretty good in my book.

[Drunken Angel]

A lot of my list design revolves around trying to balance the damage output of a unit to the resilience of the army/unit.  

 

Recently, however, I'm finding that the BA core is sadly lacking.  The current trend is for cheaper core troops and sadly we just dont have that. If we want to include FNP we have to throw in another KP and a priest tax. FC has lost the Init bonus, meaning the benefit we're granted in assault is minimal (all old hat now).  My issue is that if I dont want to rely on a 160 points for a fast razor with five guys and a flamer, my other options feel a lot less efficient.  235 points for a 10 man assault squad + 90 for the priest.  That averages to around 30 points a model. And theyre only effective when in range, yet if you deepstrike, you have a lot of the board.  Tacs in Rhinos are not too bad now, but theyre still quite pricey and their damage output is minimal. 255 points nets me a Rhino and a Tac squad with Las, Flmr, Fist. But if theyre playing aggressive, what do they do when they get to their target?  The only bonus they have is FNP and FC - and the charge is now mostly unlikely to happen. 

 

I find no fault with the majority of BA periphery units - Furiosos/DC/Ravens/Baals/Mephy/Vanguard - all of these are amazing.  But, I struggle to get a core that can put out enough damage. 

 

In my last few tournies ive been playing 4 razor squads (640 points).  It's 4 independent squads of 20 guys that, thanks to their armoured shells, dont get nuked too quickly and thanks to their armament can do more than their fair share.

 

Im 100% with Sama when he says that we need allies to fill the gap.  

I feel that allies can fill and supplement our core, while the rest of our units do what they do well- kill stuff. 

 

Grey Hunters for example are around the same price as our tac squads, but far, far superior. 

IG are great for cheap troop scoring too.

DA are also very good now with 90point 5man lascaddy squads for home plate claiming - not to mention 65point librarians (with prescience). 

Never mind all their other bling, the fact that you can get 2 sturdy claiming units from your allies and a boost to your assault element is pretty good in my book.

 

 

 

            

Let me start of saying that I am a new guy, both in Warhammer 40k and

BA. My game number is pretty low, and I constantly look about new ideas

and information about my army, our army. This will be the summary of

many different things I saw , and questions popping up.  

 

It must be noted that it has been noticed a new sub-wave at the

6th-thinkers especially after the new DA, the After-DA-thinkers (ADT). 

The logic is straight forward. How to kill terminators ? Don't CC them

and shoot them. What kills better a terminator? Plasma and melta. Most

favour plasma though for more shoots (with divination librarian) more

possible wounds, (though melta can instant-kill). 

 

         

Thus, ADT think the phrase "plasma plasma everywhere". Tactical is

their usual choice for extra plasma (often in a drop pod, less usual a

Rhino (not that famous these days)).

 

--So, the first question is what do you think about the above dear Brother. Are broad school of thought that could be added up?

 

--Give

a post below on what do opinions about these topics and let me know

what you would like to see in a tactica (so we might start gathering

some info).

Kill terminators with massed fire or massed attacks even 10 DC with their bare hands will rip 5 termis to bits.  With DA allies even 10 RAS will massacre 5 termies on the charge. Use DA bikes shooting them with rad grenades or stasis grenades from DA bikers, we BA all like bikes right ?  think about these options. 

 

How many wounds could a RAS hitting at strength 5 on furious charge put on toughness 3 terminators ?  Do the math wounding on 2's you dont need any power weapons at all do you?  Did your libby on the bike give your RAS prescience ? even better.

 

 

DA libby on a bike with divination a 5 marine DA tac with ML and vet Sgt.  Take a Black Knight or Ravenwing command squad and use the rad or stasis grenades to drop the opponents I and WS before the RAS charge.  I have tried this and it works very well.   The whole ally unit costs around 270-300 pts max and they carry a beacon that works for terminators DSing.  Thats just one iteration the stasis bomb in the bomber also comes to mind, so does a variation on the DA libby with a field generator and divination giving your vindicators and/or melta bikes a 4++ invun and prescience depending on how you set them up.

[Talnox]

This is a great topic. I love the discussion and the ideas everyone is providing. I have also been looking at how I did things between 5th and 6th ed. I used the run DoA and heavy mech lists in 5th. I now find my self using drop pods a lot. I really like that I can take away my opponents maneuver capability by blocking movement and LoS. Just a quick note about drop pods as far as I understand the new rules and other things I have read about you do not have to open all the doors on your drop pod, just one to let the guys out, if you need to block LoS. Using drop pods you can run a null deployment list that denies your opponent 1 turn of shooting if you are going second.

 

Stormravens are just as fantastic as everyone says; thats alll ill say everything else has been pretty much been beat to death.

 

In regards to sgt loadouts, I have found power swords + melta bombs to have everything we need. The power sword for challenges/killing everything except terminators, and the melta bomb for vehicles, dreadnoughts and monstrous creatures. This all for 5 points cheaper than a fist and IMO has much more potent killing power. The power fist just cant threaten heavy vehicles like the melta bomb.

 

I have found a lot of talk about dreads not being good in 6th. I am going to try a furioso in a few lists to see how it does. Im hoping the AV13 will allow the dread to survive long enough to have some fun with his talons.

 

Something that I have kept from 5th ed, I still love assaults. Even though shooting has gotten a big bump in 6th, if you can get into CC, the unit cant shoot at you and the rest of your opponents army cant shoot that unit either.

[SamaNagol]

The problem with DA is their scoring Troops are lacklustre. It is why I use them as allies now rather than primary.

 

DA, SW, IG and even GK do scoring troops better.

 

But BA Death Co, Scouts and to a lesser extent ASM units are good as singles.

 

Assault Marines in general are less attractive in this addition with their poor shooting and Assault being less effective. The Priest tax in my opinion has gotten worse not better. I don't care about my basic troops now getting a 5+ save against AP1/2/3 and Power Weapon attacks. If you are firing plasma etc at ASM then they aren't going into something more dangerous. I'd much rather get the 3+/4+ against torrents of fire from IG blobs or rapid firing bolters. And the lack of I5 on the charge means they take more hits back then they previously did due to striking simultaneously with I4 marines etc. I've really gone off Priests tbh. ~27pts a model for an 11man 2 KP scoring unit is too much.

 

Being able to take a legal allied contingent of a Librarian and a unit of Death Company is AWESOME though.

Oh btw, Important point in the new FAQs regarding Drop Pods.... you CAN cast blessings on the turn your arrive now.

[StJude]

Oh btw, Important point in the new FAQs regarding Drop Pods.... you CAN cast blessings on the turn your arrive now.

This is incorrect, the FAQ states;

Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement

phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves

rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68)

A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose

turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per

page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

You still need to be ON the table to manifest blessings at the start of the phase. This is to clarify powers like "Scrier's Gaze" from the divination table. Scriers Gaze lets you roll extra dice for reserve rolls, outflank rolls or rolling for mysterious terrain. There was some question as to when this power took affect. It does not override the rule for librarians arriving from reserve and casting a blessing.

[Morticon]

Small note:

 

Chado23, on 01 Feb 2013 - 01:26, said:

 

 

Im not convinced that this is the best argument though. 10 RAS (standard lay out = 235 PF, 2MG) and DA bikers shooting with RAD = 126 - So a minimum of 360 points.

Thats 9 standard hammernators, 8 Shooty terms or 7 DA terms with mixed gear.

 

Your RAS on the charge are going to put out 2 unsaved wounds with the toughness reduced terms.

Then they strike back - destroying the majority of your squad.

 

Also, the DC example has aspects of what I call "vacuum factoring"- 10 foot DC are very, very difficult to get the charge on account of their delivery system - unless you have them in a raven or land raider. In which case you have the same argument prob as above. If you have them with jump packs thats also 350 points. If you dont have any of the above, you're going to see them get shot at considerably.

If its just 10 DC you're looking at you have about 1.5 unsaved wounds if they dont have the charge. If they do have the charge you're looking at something much better with 4or5 unsaved wounds- which is great in a vacuum, but the chances of it happening are exceptionally slim. Not sure how they will get there unmolested.

 

Quote

 

How many wounds could a RAS hitting at strength 5 on furious charge put on toughness 3 terminators ? Do the math wounding on 2's you dont need any power weapons at all do you? Did your libby on the bike give your RAS prescience ? even better.

As above. You're adding another 100points into the mix. You're talking about using 450 points to kill 5 terms. Thats a bad example. Yes we play with synergy, but saying 450 points can kill 200 points is a bit of an oddity for me.

[Drunken Angel]

The DC example was only to illustrate that massed attacks are as good if not better to kill terminators.

 

Dont try to compare points for fast JP/Bike units to footslogger units it just does not work well. 

I did not mention the combined shooting from a RAS DA force.

 

Its important to keep in mind too.   For Rad or Stasis to work properly you need it spread over majority unit so the unit of termies is shot with melta and bolt pistols from the RAS first then plasma from the bikes to try and force some 5++ invun fails.  There are 2 twin linked plasma guns in there, under 12 inches thats 4 TL shots and the 2 melta shots from the RAS so you get maybe one or two but probably more than 2 dead termies from that sort of shooting ( why would you even go near TH/SS termies? just shoot them). The grenade blast may hit hopefully getting 2 and there is the majority toughness or WS/I dropped.  Sure its expensive what is not? the unit can move on and keep rolling you pay a premium for fast.

[knife&fork]

The DC example was only to illustrate that massed attacks are as good if not better to kill terminators.

 

Dont try to compare points for fast JP/Bike units to footslogger units it just does not work well. 

I did not mention the combined shooting from a RAS DA force.

 

Its important to keep in mind too.   For Rad or Stasis to work properly you need it spread over majority unit so the unit of termies is shot with melta and bolt pistols from the RAS first then plasma from the bikes to try and force some 5++ invun fails.  There are 2 twin linked plasma guns in there, under 12 inches thats 4 TL shots and the 2 melta shots from the RAS so you get maybe one or two but probably more than 2 dead termies from that sort of shooting ( why would you even go near TH/SS termies? just shoot them). The grenade blast may hit hopefully getting 2 and there is the majority toughness or WS/I dropped.  Sure its expensive what is not? the unit can move on and keep rolling you pay a premium for fast.

 

You're still just "polishing the t*rd" so to speak. Nothing besides DC is good value in the BA troops slots, maybe minimal razorsquads if you don't invest too heavily in them (ie priests, lots of upgrades). The same amount of points will do more good somewhere else.

 

If you absolutely want to run BA troops then sure, you can find a way to make them a bit better, but it's not an optimal way to make a good list that includes BA. 

 

I'm giving DC heavy another look, maybe it's worth paying the 'Astorath tax'  now because 20 pts for basic DC is a steal. Points have always been an issue with DC heavy but with the new allies who are better priced it shouldn't be difficult to save some points on the rest. BA vs DA bike lib is a very good example.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

 

You're still just "polishing the t*rd" so to speak. Nothing besides DC is good value in the BA troops slots, maybe minimal razorsquads if you don't invest too heavily in them (ie priests, lots of upgrades). The same amount of points will do more good somewhere else.

 

 

What are your thoughts on Sanguinary Guard as troops with Dante?

[Drunken Angel]

 

The DC example was only to illustrate that massed attacks are as good if not better to kill terminators.

 

Dont try to compare points for fast JP/Bike units to footslogger units it just does not work well. 

I did not mention the combined shooting from a RAS DA force.

 

Its important to keep in mind too.   For Rad or Stasis to work properly you need it spread over majority unit so the unit of termies is shot with melta and bolt pistols from the RAS first then plasma from the bikes to try and force some 5++ invun fails.  There are 2 twin linked plasma guns in there, under 12 inches thats 4 TL shots and the 2 melta shots from the RAS so you get maybe one or two but probably more than 2 dead termies from that sort of shooting ( why would you even go near TH/SS termies? just shoot them). The grenade blast may hit hopefully getting 2 and there is the majority toughness or WS/I dropped.  Sure its expensive what is not? the unit can move on and keep rolling you pay a premium for fast.

 

You're still just "polishing the t*rd" so to speak. Nothing besides DC is good value in the BA troops slots, maybe minimal razorsquads if you don't invest too heavily in them (ie priests, lots of upgrades). The same amount of points will do more good somewhere else.

 

If you absolutely want to run BA troops then sure, you can find a way to make them a bit better, but it's not an optimal way to make a good list that includes BA. 

 

I'm giving DC heavy another look, maybe it's worth paying the 'Astorath tax'  now because 20 pts for basic DC is a steal. Points have always been an issue with DC heavy but with the new allies who are better priced it shouldn't be difficult to save some points on the rest. BA vs DA bike lib is a very good example.

Except I dont think our RAS are bad enough to be a "turd". 

Maybe I am better off with death company and jump packs about the same price as the bikers hmm.

[SamaNagol]

 

 

You're still just "polishing the t*rd" so to speak. Nothing besides DC is good value in the BA troops slots, maybe minimal razorsquads if you don't invest too heavily in them (ie priests, lots of upgrades). The same amount of points will do more good somewhere else.

 

 

What are your thoughts on Sanguinary Guard as troops with Dante?

 

Dante at 225pts is HORRIBLY overpriced. And he doesn't really synergise with SG either. Hit & Run is better this edition.... but that Axe.... Why make it unwieldly then give Chaos and DA AP2 weapons at Initiative? :/

 

200pts for SG isn't as bad as it used to be. 3 swords and 2 axes. You don't need the Priest anymore. That bumped their effective cost up a lot.

 

I still wouldn't really take them though.

[ianj253]

I think ASM are catching a lot of hate in this thread. I think we're all overlooking there biggest strength, which is mobility. Their movement makes them great for capping objectives and allows a great deal of flexibility when it comes to tactics. 

[SevenExxes]

I have not had any luck with Sanguinary Guard at all, even in 5th edition.

They cost too much, they don't have an invulnerable save (so no, they are not terminators with jump packs) they don't get enough attacks thanks to two-handed weapons, they are limited to 5 men and they need upgrades to be effective making them even more expensive.

 

Dante just makes me rage. I can't remember how many times I have rolled a 1 to hit with his infernus pistol. All he needs is a 2 to hit!

[knife&fork]

Except I dont think our RAS are bad enough to be a "turd". 

Maybe I am better off with death company and jump packs about the same price as the bikers hmm.

 

RAS might not be a horribly designed unit, like the old possessed, spawn or half the tyranid book. They just cost way too much for what they can do. But you don't 'fix' an overpriced unit by throwing more points at them, that's just digging your own hole deeper. 

 

A good example (albeit a bit more extreme)  in another marine codex would be Legion of the Damned, really good unit with plenty of uses. They can shine in many situations but with that price tag there's no way they'll see play in a serious list.

[Chaplain Admetus]

I have not had any luck with Sanguinary Guard at all, even in 5th edition.

They cost too much, they don't have an invulnerable save (so no, they are not terminators with jump packs) they don't get enough attacks thanks to two-handed weapons, they are limited to 5 men and they need upgrades to be effective making them even more expensive.

 

Dante just makes me rage. I can't remember how many times I have rolled a 1 to hit with his infernus pistol. All he needs is a 2 to hit!

 

Feel your pain brother... I remember the time he failed 3 consecutive initiative tests to hit and run. Which is almost as embarrassing as the time it took him 3 rounds of combat to not kill Eldar jetbikes, and he nearly died himself. Twice.

 

 

I'm not inclined to see our overcosting as a huge issue. For me, and whether or not this is accurate or a personal fallacy I've developed, the entire time I've been playing Blood Angels they've always seemed to be the 'expensive' marine army. Admittedly it is painful to see things like DA librarians being only 65% the cost of ours, but RAS aren't as bad as some make out. Advantages over other marines: DoA (should we use it, yes it got stung with 6th ed. changes but its still decent), scoring units with 6" extra movement on anything marine scoring (barring the occasional biker), better special weapons, infernus pistol/hand flamer. 1/6 shot for furious charge (even with a nerf, S5 BA are nice) but Fearless instead of ATSKNF is a bit rubbish.

 

Where I think the BA codex does fall flat is the HQ section. Captains are pretty rubbish, Reclusiarchs are fun but not the best option, librarians are a good force multiplier but die too easily for my liking, and apparently are 35 points more than they need to be. As for special characters, Mephy is an absolute beatstick but the lack of an invulnerable save and AP2 really hurts him. General consensus on Dante is that he's overpointed, and the power axe issue really stings him; any old sergeant with a powerfist has good odds of taking him down in a challenge. Seth I've not seen used much, and he's mostly for fluffy Flesh Tearer lists. Regular Tycho is ok, but DC Tycho is quite possibly the worst HQ in the book. Astorath has his place in DC heavy lists, but he suffers from axe-itis in the same way as Dante and is probably again on the expensive side. Finally the Sanguinor, most expensive single model in the book unless you start tooling up a land raider, I have never seen fielded outside of White Dwarf. He looks ok on paper, but again the points cost is biblically prohibitive.

 

Honestly, there is no HQ choice in the entire book that I actively -want- to field. If I could do an army without one, I would. My favourite is the divination librarian, but he's not always good, too vulnerable (I4, T4, 2W, no invulnerable), and far too expensive for what little he does.

[SamaNagol]

RAS are good. They are good at taking objectives. But they are not good at holding them.

 

The fact they cost in excess of 200pts plus Priests or Libby to be truly effective is an issue.

 

I do think there could be a good synergy between Wolf Drop Pods and ASM jump packers. But only in higher points games where you can afford to run 2 full RAS units and 3 full Grey Hunters

[SnorriSnorrison]

I think that the majority of people here is merely looking at the point costs that add up when adding a Sanguinary Priest to an Assault Squad, but not to the force itself.
Last game I played against some very hard-hitting Space Wolves force with a beast of a Wolf Lord and a unit of thunderwolves. I was on the lucky side and he failed his charge, so I could counter him quite easily with RAS and Sanguinary Guard, along with a Priest. Now you add up the points and see that they're probably more expensive than the wolves, but the Priest and Librarian actually helped out units that were around them, not only the Assault Squad. I think simply adding up points and comparing them to another unit's point-costs doesn't work in an army that is designed to run on synergy.

Besides, our Assault Squads are not bad. They've been nerfed, but we've talked that to death so I won't do it again. They're still the only jumping melta-deliverer in the troops section, something that we can build our armies around. The Tactical Squad I've been using since 4th edition is finally worth the points, so there's another good choice from the troops section.
I see why people tend to include Grey Hunters, and it's fairly understandable. Cheaper, and more tactical options with their bolters/bolt pistols/chainswords.

What I found quite amusing however is that when played in a rhino, they're . No assault out of a transport, overwatch is at least and even with their countercharge you can get them on the wrong foot throwing some Sanguinary Guard at them where more attacks don't matter.

Many avoid close combat because of the nerfed Furious Charge and the improved shooting rules from 6th, they need allies to beef up their forces to make them 'competitive' and complain about the changed rules. When keeping in mind that Warhammer 40k was never intended as a competitive game such as tournaments, I think the complaints are a bit exaggerated. Normal beer-and-pretzel games still work fine.

Snorri

[SamaNagol]

I would argue that Grey Hunters are probably the only 'tactical' unit that are good in a Rhino now. Fly forward turn one. Boost. Pop smoke.

 

Turn 2 jump out and shoot with Melta/Plasma/Krak grenade/rapid firing bolters. They don't really care if they charge or get charged. The only difference it makes is the bonus attack to the opposition. And they have Wolf Banner, hidden MOTW and probably hidden P.Axe too.

 

I think the role of ASM is as a shock troop/relief troop. Not a holding unit. I would personally take more Tacticals/GreyHunters than I would Assault Marine units in a force.

 

Assault Marines work well when you want to liberate objectives and clear them out.

[knife&fork]

I have to agree on HQ selection being tricky. Unless you want to go with Mephiston the options really are lacking. You can always ignore the other aspects of the codex with help from allies, but there's no way to avoid taking that HQ. 

 

 

I think that the majority of people here is merely looking at the point costs that add up when adding a Sanguinary Priest to an Assault Squad, but not to the force itself.
Last game I played against some very hard-hitting Space Wolves force with a beast of a Wolf Lord and a unit of thunderwolves. I was on the lucky side and he failed his charge, so I could counter him quite easily with RAS and Sanguinary Guard, along with a Priest. Now you add up the points and see that they're probably more expensive than the wolves, but the Priest and Librarian actually helped out units that were around them, not only the Assault Squad. I think simply adding up points and comparing them to another unit's point-costs doesn't work in an army that is designed to run on synergy.

 

 

Many avoid close combat because of the nerfed Furious Charge and the improved shooting rules from 6th, they need allies to beef up their forces to make them 'competitive' and complain about the changed rules. When keeping in mind that Warhammer 40k was never intended as a competitive game such as tournaments, I think the complaints are a bit exaggerated. Normal beer-and-pretzel games still work fine.

 

 

 

Snorri

 

But it does, just as I mentioned earlier. If you are playing with points-ineffective units you are effectively giving yourself a point handicap vs your opponent. 

 

WH40k is a player vs player game. It might not be very well balanced, but it is competitive by nature. I wouldn't consider my local group to be extremely tough but I get stomped if I try to bring 5th ed lists to a game.