Banner tactics: getting the most from our multipliers

[Polythemus]

Hey all,

 

I was recently putting together a deathwing list with a command squad and thinking about how best to utilize a banner for these guys. This then started to get me thinking about other army lists and banners.

 

With the codex being out for a little while now weve seen a few different deployments loadouts for banners discussed but not alot on the subject of practical experience.

 

From what i have seen banner of devastaion and fortitude get the most hype. And rightly so they are they most expensive and have impressive effects. But how can we get more use out of the other banners?

These tatics should be considered in order to get max benefit, as they are some of the best new features in the codex.

 

Devastation tactics:

Gunline marines behind aegis, with banner in a ride. Probably two full tact squads near banner. 80 shots= about 52 hits.

 

Bikers. Flanking or otherwise. Squad of six gets 24tl shots. About 17 hits. So 34 with two squads. Interestingly as has already been noted by some, the profile of the weapon loses its rapid fire ability when you use its salvo function. Therefore there is no reason to get close with bikers at all. Since you are going to need the rw command squad with this tactic, it may be best to shield the command squad with the darkshroud.

 

Deathwing are really only getting the benefit if hurricane bolters are benefitting. The convention now is that they do, while storm bolters dont. Youll therefore need a landraider or several to benefit from this.

 

Fortitude:

The best use ive seen so far is in a landraider with command squad as reported effectively by cactus. The spread on this is impressive. But you could of course use it on other transports. And with other unit types a jumppack troop and some bikes may be an equally effective strategy, but as i said above id be curious to hear what else has been working for people.

 

Retribution

The counterattack banner. This banner has not gotten as much attention as its more illustrious cousins. It also has a 12" range. The trick to this banner might be to keep it in a transport as well and move it to the area where you want to deter assault. It would be interesting to see a list where both devastation and counterattack are employed to maximize board control. Most armies in sixth seem to be built just for shooting so it might be tough to use this one effectively. How are people doing with it.

 

Dw banner and rw banner. In terms of theory as ive only played two games with the new codex, i feel the rw banner is the more effective one. its very hard to get your opponent to cooperate with you having a coordinated terminator assault. The best tactic for the deathwing banner seems to be again using a landraider to get close with belial on board and dropping down termies around him. After the dwassault you need need to assault something that is pretty juicy and attempt to tie it up for a turn.

 

Since you auto pass hit and run i feel that the rw squad banner may be the better of the two, since its so much easier for rw to get into a coordinated assault.

 

We are left with the company banner, DA chapter. Banner, and the revered banner. The revered banner seems to be the most interesting of these since it grants the crusader status allowing improved rolls to sweeping advance. This would clearly benefit rw, veterans, and the jump troops.

 

So who has used these banners and how? What has been the method youve found most successful? Theory is all well and good since it gives us a starting point, and since the command squads are small youll want to have a well thoughtout plan for using them, but experience and good generalship rules the day in the 41st millenium.

[Azrael Turnbull]

I've compared banners by making three army list that revolves around each of them individually. I then used averages to decide which one is best for points.

 

The Standard of Devastation outshoots the Standard of Fortitude list, even if the command squad is killed last. The output of damage simply overcomes the defence that the Standard of Fortitude provides nearby units, hands down.

 

The Standard of Retribution... I can not imagine a single scenario where this will be beneficial for it's points. Fighting an assault army? Just take Devastation and shoot them all down! Much better than getting 1 attack per model, most likely once a game each.

 

That's my opinion.

[Polythemus]

When you did the calculations for dev vs. fort, did you consider assaults? To me this is where the fortitude banner can really help, since its a durability increase and FNP is going to benefit multithreat (shooting plus assault) models the most. The dev banner is clearly powerful but its limitations seem to be transports, which models like termies can open then assault the contents.

[Brother Immolator]

HQ


Librarian (pts total 130) ----Army Warlord----
Stock Wargear: 1 librarian, Power armor, bolt pistol, force weapon (staff),
frag & krak granades,psychic hood

Upgrades:
Mastery level 2
Power field generator
Psyker powers to be chosen from Divination and Telekinesis
disciplines.


Command Squad Amanrth -Seekers of the truth- 5man (165 pts total )
Stock Wargear: 5 marines, Power armor, boltspistols, chainswords, frag & krark
granades

Upgrades:
Sacred Standard of Devastation


Troops


Tactical squad Immolator -Xenohunters- ten man (260 pts total)
Stock Wargear: 5 marines, Power armor,frag & krkk granades,bolt pistols,
boltguns

Upgrades:
Veteran sergeant
+5 marines
flamer
missile launcher
flakk missiles
melta bombs
Razorback Lascannon & twinlinked plasma gun



Tactical squad Patroclos - The ancients - ten man (260 pts total)
Stock Wargear: 5 marines, Power armor,frag & krak granades,bolt pistols,
boltguns

Upgrades:
Veteran sergeant
+5 marines
flamer
missile launcher
flakk missiles
melta bombs
Razorback Lascannon & twinlinked plasma gun

Scout Squad Velisarius - ten man (165pts total)
Stock wargear: 5 scouts, Scout armor, boltguns, boltpistols, frag & krak granades,
60pts.

Upgrades:
+5 scouts
The whole squad replaces their boltguns for snipper rifles
10 Cammo cloaks
Missile launcher
Flakk missiles


Fast attack


Ravenwing Blacknights - Glory hounds - 6 man (257pts total)
Stock Wargear: 3 Ravenwing Blacknights, Power armor, boltpistols, plasmatalon,
corvus hammers
frag & krak granades,teleport homer.

Upgrades:
+3 blacknights
2 models replace their plasma talons for rad launchers
The hunts master takes melta bombs


Heavy support


Devastator squad Jericho -Angels of ruin - ten man (210pts total)
Veteran sergeant
Stock wargear: 5 marines, Power armor, boltguns, bolt pistols, Frag & krak grenades,
sergeant has signum

Upgrades:
+5 marines
2x Heavy bolters
2x Lascannons


Land Raider -Shield Of Caliban- (260 pts total)
Stock Wargear: Twin-linked Heavy bolter, Two twin-linked lascannons, Searchlight,
Smoke launchers

Upgrades:
Multy melta


Land Speeder Vengeance -Purgatory- (160 pts total)
Stock Wargear: Heavy bolter, Plasma storm Battery


Total 1847.


How does it sound?

I build this list for a tournament restricting special characters. So no scoring DW/RW.
I didn't use a crusader because I wanted the extra lass cannons and I didn't want to enter the debate of Hurricane bolters count as bolter yapping or not. At 2000pts it is assisted by a unit of DW knights.

[notmattlythgoe]

I think your command squad is 20 points under what it should be.

[Azrael Turnbull]

When you did the calculations for dev vs. fort, did you consider assaults? To me this is where the fortitude banner can really help, since its a durability increase and FNP is going to benefit multithreat (shooting plus assault) models the most. The dev banner is clearly powerful but its limitations seem to be transports, which models like termies can open then assault the contents.

 

Coming to think of it, I suppose the Banner of Fortitude is preferable with Terminator armies. Personally, I will stick to the Deathwing standard for these lists and forgo the sacred standards.

[Polythemus]

Immolator i think that your list might do ok, obviously the vengence is a major liability. Have you already tested it in this list? I do think that you might be better dropping the vengence for some other unit or an aegis. It looks like it could be very effective, however, the command squad might be better off in a transport, that way you can move to regions of the table where the banner is most effectively needed, and the banner carrier cant be sniped.

[Brother Immolator]

Allow me to explain the mentality:

The LR in the list will act as a transport for the command squad and the librarian. According to the rules the effects of both the banner and the power field generator now must be measured from the hull

Now that will allow the possibilty of both tac squads getting buffed deployment permitting. The scouts will hold the objective deemed to be the less assailable and use their superior range praying to kill a mostrus creature or get any precision shots. Not counting on that though.

Now the derp speeder with its considerable range will take cover beside the LR and hammer whatever it can all the while taking the inv from the generator too.

The RWKs will act as a zooming screen and counter assault unit softening what they can with plasma and charging the rest before they threaten the tacs.

Had I points I would add a deathwing knights unit in reserves to further the counter assault capabilities of the list.

Modifications I am considering: Remove the DWks and replace them with a RW squad so they can use the banner as well. Equip them with plasma guns and a single melta gun just in case.

Replacing the GodHammer LR with a crusader so it can too take advantage of the banner, however I will loose in anti tank and I think its better to er on the side of caution.

notmattlythgoe: I double checked and unless I cant see it the command squad is exact in its points, I made no mistake.

[elphilo]

Hmm, my codex says that the SoD is 65 points and the SoR is 45. Maybe one of us have a misprint?

[notmattlythgoe]

Hmm, my codex says that the SoD is 65 points and the SoR is 45. Maybe one of us have a misprint?

That's what I though, which should bring the command squad to 165, not 145.

[Brother Immolator]

notmattlythgoe, on 01 Feb 2013 - 21:27, said:

elphilo, on 01 Feb 2013 - 21:07, said:

Hmm, my codex says that the SoD is 65 points and the SoR is 45. Maybe one of us have a misprint?

That's what I though, which should bring the command squad to 165, not 145.

No missprint I am just stupid. Glad I had someone point that out:

I read the command squad options at page 95 as them been able to take the banner for 45 pts because there was no cost stated and because I was misreading the cost of the chapter banner.

Eh now that means that I must fumble with it. Thanks for pointing that out guys!

Seems I will be dropping the assault cannon in the vengeance...Shame really. HB it is then.

Edited the list, thanks again guys

[notmattlythgoe]

No problem, I did the same thing at first read through and just thought that all of the banners were the same price.

[elphilo]

I'm just glad that was caught before you participated in your tournament. It always sucks to be disqualified because of a stupid mistake

[Brother Immolator]

Yeah it would suck indeed. It wouldn't cost that much ink to print some points costs in there would it it?

Anyway... I think it will do decent. The idea was to maximize the effect of the generator and the banner while keeping them as much protected as possible. Having a good amount of scoring units and mobility and a good number of anti-everything.

With a couple good rolls on the libbys powers he can further boost up the units around him.

 

EDIT: The LR and the power generator I feel addresses Polythemus concerns about canning the transport. It cant get more durable than that.

So I posted this to demonstrate that the options on the codex can and IMHO MUST be used in conjunction supporting each other.

 

On topic: I toyed with the Idea of replacing the banner with fortitude but in essence as it is: If we take into account the number of shots generated by the tac squads through the presence of the BoD against two identical squads having the BoD, the BoD will loose in the shootout by a large margin. At least that's my guess I am not good at math hammer, but you practically fire bolters at IG numbers

[Onisuzume]

 

Fortitude:
The best use ive seen so far is in a landraider with command squad as reported effectively by cactus. The spread on this is impressive. But you could of course use it on other transports. And with other unit types a jumppack troop and some bikes may be an equally effective strategy, but as i said above id be curious to hear what else has been working for people.

What I'm missing:

 

Belial, DW command squad with a TDA Brother Bethor (no apothecary, champion is optional), two 10-man DW terminator squads (1.5k points).

GL taking that down.

 

Virtus in Extremis.

[Azrael Turnbull]

So, old school 25 +Belial Terminator list but with FNP spread around most/all of your army? This certainly grabs my attention.

[Cactus]

So, old school 25 +Belial Terminator list but with FNP spread around most/all of your army? This certainly grabs my attention.

 

I did the same thing at 2000 points and it was as tough as old boots.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270003-2k-deathwing-vs-black-legion/

[Ronin_eX]

SoF is my go-to in Deathwing-heavy forces.  A 2+ save with FNP is insanely hard to kill. Four to five squads of such saves are ridiculous.  Deathwing Knights are especially awesome under the banner.  Because usual terminator-banes in CC wont even deny them FNP because they are T5.  It pays for itself the second it saves the second or third terminator.  For an army that has to drop in to the teeth of the enemy and risk being assaulted during the very next turn, the massive FNP bubble is a godsend.

 

Chances are you will drop in, pop a few vehicles/units with your Vengeful Strike-augmented assault, and then have to weather the focused ire of most of their army, followed by getting charged by whatever is nastiest and closest.  With the SoF, it is possible to get through this with very few actual casualties (during my first game I took zero casualties from return fire).

 

If you are running a big unit or two of Black Knights (who gain jack from the SoD) then the SoF may also be worth it.  Black Knights are a common support choice for my Deathwing, so it works out well for me.

[GlauG]

I played a 2k game last night to try out a Ravenwing-heavy list, and basically cheesed it up to see how useful the Standard of Fortitude was in practice; Sammael, 8 or 9 Ravenwing Knights with 3 launchers, Command Squad, 2x 3-man Squadrons with MM Attack Bike (one with Meltas, one with Flamers), a Darkshroud, a Dark Talon, Belial and a 10-man Deathwing with a single TH/SS, one Heavy Flamer, one Assault Cannon.  My opponent was playing mech Guard, with a Pask Punisher (putting out 29 shots a turn with the turret/3 Heavy Bolters, plus a Heavy Stubber on top), a Manticore, one Veteran Squad in a Chimera, one in a Vendetta, another just dropping in, a 9-man Battle Psyker unit +  a Primaris Psyker, a Bane Wolf, another squad of Veterans footslogging, and allied Inquisitor Coteaz + 4 Crusaders with Storm Shields in a Chimera, with a Vindicare Assassin cherry on top. 

 

Long story short, the combination of Dark Talon at the back of the RW/CS, who were then surrounded from the front by the Knights which Sammael had joined, with one Attack Bike riding alongside was just... absurdly hard to kill.  My opponent took three turns to get a single kill point, which ended up being said Attack Bike, when the Paskisher opened up on him with its entire freaking arsenal.  The combination of careful use of cover, Shrouded, FNP and their Jink from constantly being on the move meant that my biker blob laughed off fusillades of Heavy Bolter fire from the massed tanks, as well as Pask's horrible nastiness, all the hotshot Veteran Lasgun fire they attracted.  Thanks to the 4+ Jink the Darkshroud supplied (and a few 1's on my opponent's part), the Knights and Sammael managed to not take a single wound from being the sole target for bombardment by the Manticore.  I didn't quite get them to meet up with the Deathwing and grant them FNP as well, due to battlefield circumstances (three wrecked tanks in the way while the DW slowly bludgeoned and punched their way along the Guard flank, and the banner team assaulting a Guard Veteran squad to stop them shooting people up with AP2 weapons), but it was a plan I had in mind.  As it happens, the regular Ravenwing didn't get to come on before I had decisively won the game (7 kill points to 1, when we called it).  The Darkshroud even rended the Vendetta to death with a single penetrating hit. <3  Sammael managed to avoid the Vindicare's every shot by virtue of cover saves as well. 

 

It's just one game, and my opponent made some poor decisions (like focusing on Sammael rather than the Darkshroud with the Vindicare, even if I did basically guarantee it a 3+ save at the minimum each turn) and had some bad luck, but I had my share of the latter, too.  I think the fact that the 3/4 of my Army which made it onto the board managed to steamroll most of his in only 4 turns speaks volumes for the potential effectiveness of the concept, at least.  In addition, a mobile bikeblob which all has Skilled Rider and Scouts can make good use of terrain to roll into that 18" Plasma Talon threat range in Turn 1 if you do it right. 

 

I can see the Standard of Devastation seeing use with RW armies, but unless it's used very carefully, I don't see it being as effective as the Standard of Fortitude due to the much shorter area of effect; to get your army into position where you can make effective use of 3 6-man bike squads (which I imagine as a kind of functional limit, if you are conga-lining them...) will be difficult depending on the table.  Just some thoughts, as I try and get my head round this...

[Polythemus]

One strategy/list ive come up with is the list that looks like this.

 

Belial plus command squad with SoF in LRC.

Contemptor mortis with twin kheres

Fw Mortis dread with twin auto cannon.

 

All this starts one the table. 5 units.

 

You reserve the other 20 terminators and deep strike them in using belials becon around the LRC. At 2k This gives you 70 pts to play with for war gear. They can only be 6" from the beacon so your gauranteed to be within range of the SoF. Your opponent hopefully soils himself. This is the most effecacious way i can come up with for a dw army. It will be a blunt weapon but the spread of the banner gives you the opportunity of cutting a wide 24" swath of destruction. The dreads can clean up the riff-raff.

[Artemid]

One strategy/list ive come up with is the list that looks like this.

 

Belial plus command squad with SoF in LRC.

Contemptor mortis with twin kheres

Fw Mortis dread with twin auto cannon.

 

All this starts one the table. 5 units.

 

You reserve the other 20 terminators and deep strike them in using belials becon around the LRC. At 2k This gives you 70 pts to play with for war gear. They can only be 6" from the beacon so your gauranteed to be within range of the SoF. Your opponent hopefully soils himself. This is the most effecacious way i can come up with for a dw army. It will be a blunt weapon but the spread of the banner gives you the opportunity of cutting a wide 24" swath of destruction. The dreads can clean up the riff-raff.

 

This sounds stupid fun.

[Wraithwing]

 

notmattlythgoe, on 01 Feb 2013 - 21:27, said:

 

 

elphilo, on 01 Feb 2013 - 21:07, said:

Hmm, my codex says that the SoD is 65 points and the SoR is 45. Maybe one of us have a misprint? :ermm:

 

That's what I though, which should bring the command squad to 165, not 145.

No missprint I am just stupid. Glad I had someone point that out:

I read the command squad options at page 95 as them been able to take the banner for 45 pts because there was no cost stated and because I was misreading the cost of the chapter banner.

Eh now that means that I must fumble with it. Thanks for pointing that out guys!

Seems I will be dropping the assault cannon in the vengeance...Shame really. HB it is then.

 

Edited the list, thanks again guys

Might be worth swapping your Command Squad Chainswords for more Bolters.

[Brother Immolator]

 

Might be worth swapping your Command Squad Chainswords for more Bolters.

 

I have considered it but since they will be chilling in the LR in order to expand the banners bubble effect, it would mean nothing if I did. I thought that in case of the RWKs been in CC or if something deep strikes they will use the LRs ramp and accompanied by the Libby will assault.

[Vash]

 

Hey all,

 

 

Devastation tactics:

Gunline marines behind aegis, with banner in a ride. Probably two full tact squads near banner. 80 shots= about 52 hits.

 

Bikers. Flanking or otherwise. Squad of six gets 24tl shots. About 17 hits. So 34 with two squads. Interestingly as has already been noted by some, the profile of the weapon loses its rapid fire ability when you use its salvo function. Therefore there is no reason to get close with bikers at all. Since you are going to need the rw command squad with this tactic, it may be best to shield the command squad with the darkshroud.

 

 

 

Bikers have twin-linked bolters, meaning re-roll to hit. Thus it will be aroung 21 hits from a single 6 man biker squad. 42 hits from two units.

Math I am using (might be wrong) is that BS4 = 4 out of 6 will mean a hit. Thus 4/6 = 0.667 (BS4 = 0.667 hit)

So, 24 shots x 0.667 = 16 hits

The remaning 8 misses are re-rolled, 8 x 0.667 = 5.336

Add those together and we get 21.336 hits

 

We could also count it in another way.

24 shots, divided by 6 (number of sides on a D6) = 4

4 is a factor for this example, and is used for how many sides counts as a hit. with BS4 that means 4 sides. So we take 4 x 4 = 16 hits.

Again 8 re-rolls divided by 6 (number of sides on a D6) = 1.33 factor

1.33 x 4 (BS4 value) = 5.333

Add them together and we get 21.33 hits

 

 

Now, add a ravenwing command to this, and flanking the enemy, which isnt to hard with their great speed. Ravenwing command equiped with a ravenwing grenade launcher (once within 12"), will unleach rad grenades.

Now we will be wounding at 3+ instead of 4+.

Combined with the command squad, there should be around 8 dead power armours, more if you upgrade the biker unit with plasmas/meltas/flamers*.

Outside 12" the average will be 5 killed power armours.

This comes at a price of 346 pts (no upgrades on the bike squad).  

 

A comparison (not the best) is with my main army. Grey Knights. The usual setup for many GK players is a full strike squad with 2 psycannons and psybolt ammunition (+1 str bolters), thats 240 pts. Add a 5 man unit extra with a psycannon it adds up to 350 pts.

That setup will at average kill 6 power armours.

 

So with my GK I will do 2 kills less  (compaired at optimum range for the RW command), and I wont even be close to the mobility of the RW bikers. I need to stand my ground with the psycannons to use its full potential. Range for GK is 24" + 6" move (but lose 2 shots per psycannon).

Range for RW bikers is 24"+ 12", a whoophing 36" coverage!

GK sure has 1 more kill at range, but, wont have that advantage for long.

 

Now I know there are thousands of ways to counter this.

[Azrael Turnbull]

If you know your opponent is lacking in pie plates, then why stop at two squads. Who cares if your enemy gains cover saves when you're firing 200 Boltgun shots a turn? ;)

 

700 Points of Tactical, 195 points of Command Squad (sorry, I can't take one without a Champion and Apothecary. It'd look silly.).

 

That leaves you with many points to spend on whatever the hell you feel like. Of course, you have to know they don't have pie plates, so this is mainly effective against friends, or if you're against Orks/Tyranids/Daemons etc. Orks/Tyranids don't have many pie plates that ignore your armour, and they'd only get off one shot before you focus the offender to death. A Battle Wagon may have something to say about it, but I rarely come across one of those with a cannon.

 

For a game where you don't know who your opponent will be, I still take 3 Tactical Marine squads. They can still be effective if your banner is assassinated and it's only 420 points worth of troops choice.