Banner tactics: getting the most from our multipliers

[Brother Immolator]

That is a big if though, consider the possibility that you wont be playing a prearranged game. Thats why I wanted to have a mix of weapons.

[Azrael Turnbull]

Hence the end comment. Anything less than 3 Tactical Marine squads, and you do not have enough scoring units IMO. In a Greenwing army, anyway. Scouts are an alternative scoring unit, but of course not ideal for a Standard of Devastation line over the Tactical Marines.

[Onisuzume]

So, old school 25 +Belial Terminator list but with FNP spread around most/all of your army? This certainly grabs my attention.

Pretty much, yeah.

Considering that if you want a full command squad, the cost of the apothecary is almost the same as upgrading In Alae Mortis-banner to Virtus in Extremis-Standard, but with much better effects. I specifically mentioned two 10-men squads because it'll be easier to give FNP to all of them.

 

For an army that has to drop in to the teeth of the enemy and risk being assaulted during the very next turn, the massive FNP bubble is a godsend.

"Has to"? Last time I checked, we still had the option of deploying them on the board.

[Brother Immolator]

Hence the end comment. Anything less than 3 Tactical Marine squads, and you do not have enough scoring units IMO. In a Greenwing army, anyway. Scouts are an alternative scoring unit, but of course not ideal for a Standard of Devastation line over the Tactical Marines.

 

Yep I just love the idea and the models though :D

[Brother Landrain]

Two points of interest with the Standard of Devastation...

 

1)   It completely removes the Rapid-Fire, and all limitations of that rule. It replaces Rapid-Fire with Salvo 2/4. The range remains 24"

 

2) it affects all UNITS within 6"... if ONE model of a unit is within 6", the UNIT is... So that Landraider makes the AOE Bubble stretch up to 17" across a front, and the actual affected area of the SOD could theoretically stretch 40-50" across a Table edge...

[Onisuzume]

Well, to my defence, I don't have C:DA within reach today.

Second, it replaced Rapid Fire.

The Bolter/Boltgun is the only weapon in the group which has Rapid Fire, ergo, it is the only one who is affected.

[Brother Landrain]

Well, to my defence, I don't have C:DA within reach today.

Second, it replaced Rapid Fire.

The Bolter/Boltgun is the only weapon in the group which has Rapid Fire, ergo, it is the only one who is affected.

 

While I agree that the most likely way the SoD was written was meant to only affect Bolters... It was written as Boltguns.

 

Boltguns are a specific weapon AND a weapons class.

 

It also does not say that Boltguns replace Rapid-Fire with Salvo, it states all boltguns are treated as Salvo 2/4....

 

So is there a precedent for a rule affecting an ENTIRE class of weapons?

 

• Q: What counts as a plasma weapon for the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon? (p62)
• A: All Plasma weapons, as well as Eldar missile launchers firing plasma missiles, burst cannons, starcannons, all Tau pulse  weapons and any weapon described as using ‘plasma’ as its effect or in its special rules.

 

So while some say its obvious, some say its blatant cheating, I have to insist it is potentially unclear.

 

The problem is they have a few specific weapons that have the exact same name as some weapon classes, which is just poor rules writing. They need to rename the boltguns used my marines and others to Bolters to remove the confusion.. I think Flamer and Flamer class also has the same multiple name issue, dont have my 6th ed book while on business trip.

[Kastor Krieg]

the derp speeder

I have to say, it's adorable that both my "Derp Speeder" and "Dakka Flag" have stuck

[Onisuzume]

 

Well, to my defence, I don't have C:DA within reach today.

Second, it replaced Rapid Fire.

The Bolter/Boltgun is the only weapon in the group which has Rapid Fire, ergo, it is the only one who is affected.

 

While I agree that the most likely way the SoD was written was meant to only affect Bolters... It was written as Boltguns.

 

Boltguns are a specific weapon AND a weapons class.

 

It also does not say that Boltguns replace Rapid-Fire with Salvo, it states all boltguns are treated as Salvo 2/4....

 

So is there a precedent for a rule affecting an ENTIRE class of weapons?

 

• Q: What counts as a plasma weapon for the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon? (p62)
• A: All Plasma weapons, as well as Eldar missile launchers firing plasma missiles, burst cannons, starcannons, all Tau pulse  weapons and any weapon described as using ‘plasma’ as its effect or in its special rules.

 

So while some say its obvious, some say its blatant cheating, I have to insist it is potentially unclear.

 

The problem is they have a few specific weapons that have the exact same name as some weapon classes, which is just poor rules writing. They need to rename the boltguns used my marines and others to Bolters to remove the confusion.. I think Flamer and Flamer class also has the same multiple name issue, dont have my 6th ed book while on business trip.

And if they wanted storm bolters, heavy bolters, etc. to be affected, they would've used the wording "bolt weapons".

[Artemid]

Or "All boltgun weapons". Not "boltguns". 

[Brother Landrain]

But the weapon class is called BOLTGUNS....

 

I agree in principal with what you all are saying, but thats not how they wrote it...

 

Its SLOPPY game design, and anyone who doesn't agree with that, need only look at the LE codex, regular codex, online codex, and count the differences... and then a week later they need a FAQ not to answer questions but fix 'typos' and mis-statements.

[Brother Immolator]

But the weapon class is called BOLTGUNS....

 

I agree in principal with what you all are saying, but thats not how they wrote it...

 

Its SLOPPY game design, and anyone who doesn't agree with that, need only look at the LE codex, regular codex, online codex, and count the differences... and then a week later they need a FAQ not to answer questions but fix 'typos' and mis-statements.

 

To me its more the insatiable hunger of people to find loopholes, rather sloppy writing for once. In this particular argument, the apothecary and the techmarine ones at least. Its not like nobody understands what it means. At times I am having the notion that I am listening to children who need to be taken by hand and explained word by word. And the sad thing is that I could understand that if it was indeed that way but it isnt, its a masquerade.

 

I feel that next time we accuse them of  a rulebook sized FAQ we have to look at the mirror to find the culprit.

[Onisuzume]

Also, as mentioned in the Fortifications thread, the Bastion and Fortress of Redemption can be used in place of a Rhino/Land Raider for extending the bubble, possibly making it also interresting for the Standard of Devastation as well as the Standard of Fortitude, probably no good use for the Standard of Retribution, though.

With the Bastion being the cheaper option (about the same as a small tactical squad with some options), the FoR might be a more useful option since it also provides cover for multiple squads (3-4 battlements), and providing a strong anti-air shot per turn (enough to make heldrakes/stormravens/storm eagles/caestus worry).

[Brother Immolator]

The only problem been it is not mobile should need arise.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Can we drop the boltgun subject? it's a dead horse beating and each will interpret the way he wants until a clarification comes ... No matter of discussion here will change anything and it gets pretty annoying/ to see this discussiondisrupting several threads. 

[Nightrunner]

Hi all,

 

I just wanted to chime in with my own experiences so far with pure Ravenwing and the Banner of devastation.

 

I run this at 1750:
 

Sammael

Librarian Lvl 1, Bike, Power Field, Auspex

Techmarine on Bike

 

RW Command with Bannner of Devastation, Apothecary, 3x Plasma Talon

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

 

6 RW bikes, two with plasma gun.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes

 

Dark Shroud with Heavy bolter

 

1749pts

 

Obviously, this list runs with the caveat that you are allowed a command squad by the techmarine. If not, you have to lose the auspex and take one squad of Knights as a Fast Attack choice.

 

For 1850, add two more attack bikes (one with HB) to improve your shooting & scoring.

 

So, the oh-so-subtle plan with this army... you scout, you shoot! Simples.

 

The techmarine and librarian go in the command squad, providing a 2+ save to tank wounds as well as the benefits of the Librarian (who always rolls on divination) and so far, has been pretty durable (I am building up to games against Daemons and 'crons for practice this week, and have yet to play the Helldrake!). The command squad almost never doesn't boost around, unless it is plannig to assault. I might well change them to have a grenade launcher at some point, but their has rarely been something left after everything has shot that they can get to assault!

 

If i manage to get a decent power, I sometimes take the Librarian out of the command squad, but usually he chills there for extra durability.

 

Other cunning tactics -

 

• You combat squad all of the melta and bolter bike squads. Yes, you make the army more vunerable to giving away first blood, but you also have greater flexibility with the 12 TL-bolter shots at 24" from each combat squad, allowing you to spread fire around, as well as greater scoring and targets that are much harder for your opponent to torrent down in one go.
• Sammael goes around in the squad with plasma guns, who (usually) don't combat squad. Never with the Command squad!They are a big target for opponents (Sammael is usually my Warlord) but skilled rider and improved cover saves makes them a really good unit that can easily support your knights in assault or shooting. In the command squad, the benefits of H&R and Skilled Rider are lost - better to have another unit that can be a bugger to remove.
• The RWC banner squad should always be boosting - then, giving my whole army the benefits of the banner in one shooting phase is easy. This works on two levels; one, I don't have to worry about positioning the whole army perfectly in relation to the command squad for my opponents shooting phase so that it doesn't die easily (I can re-position on the turbo boost) and it also means I don't have to squeeze together to get the most out of the army.

 

So far, the force has worked really well. I have beaten dual council Eldar/D.Eldar, Marines of various colours, Shooty GK's, Guard and Orks. Still testing, as I said, but we shall see.

 

Without this particular banner, the army would not work. Wraiths, Scarabs, Guard Blobs - without the Salvo shots, you just cannot kill them all, even with special weapons and psychic powers, and getting close enough to dent them will see too many bikes go down in the return fire. Eventually, you will need the other tools and the banner might well bite the dust, but until then, every single unit is a massive threat. For that reason alone, I would never not take this banner for a pure RW force.

 

NR

[Brother Immolator]

My whole skepticism with your list is that you don't have enough anti tank. 2mm and 2 melta guns are too low for my tastes. You need to bring those bikers to bear too close for my taste. But yes it is a good list.

[Kastor Krieg]

Belial @190 (sword/SB)

Librarian (TDA, ML2, Foe Smiter, auspex) @155

 

Deathwing Command (FnP banner, TH/SS) @310

Deathwing One (TH/SS, CML) @250

Deathwing Two (TH/SS, CML) @250

Deathwing Three (TH/SSx2, ACx2, 10 TDA) @490

 

Nephilim Jetfighter @180

= 1820

 

27 TDAs, Split Fire, TL shooty after DS, FnP on all, Divination on all (Belial goes with the CQ, Libby goes with the 10-man squad). Has got AT if needed (Split Fire CMLs, TL-LC on the Fighter, THs and PFs), has a nice bit of dakka and is very resilient between Look Out, 2+/5++ and 5+ FnP.

[Vash]

Hi all,

 

I just wanted to chime in with my own experiences so far with pure Ravenwing and the Banner of devastation.

 

I run this at 1750:

 

Sammael

Librarian Lvl 1, Bike, Power Field, Auspex

Techmarine on Bike

 

RW Command with Bannner of Devastation, Apothecary, 3x Plasma Talon

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

 

6 RW bikes, two with plasma gun.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes

 

Dark Shroud with Heavy bolter

 

1749pts

 

Obviously, this list runs with the caveat that you are allowed a command squad by the techmarine. If not, you have to lose the auspex and take one squad of Knights as a Fast Attack choice.

 

For 1850, add two more attack bikes (one with HB) to improve your shooting & scoring.

 

So, the oh-so-subtle plan with this army... you scout, you shoot! Simples.

 

The techmarine and librarian go in the command squad, providing a 2+ save to tank wounds as well as the benefits of the Librarian (who always rolls on divination) and so far, has been pretty durable (I am building up to games against Daemons and 'crons for practice this week, and have yet to play the Helldrake!). The command squad almost never doesn't boost around, unless it is plannig to assault. I might well change them to have a grenade launcher at some point, but their has rarely been something left after everything has shot that they can get to assault!

 

If i manage to get a decent power, I sometimes take the Librarian out of the command squad, but usually he chills there for extra durability.

 

Other cunning tactics -

 

• You combat squad all of the melta and bolter bike squads. Yes, you make the army more vunerable to giving away first blood, but you also have greater flexibility with the 12 TL-bolter shots at 24" from each combat squad, allowing you to spread fire around, as well as greater scoring and targets that are much harder for your opponent to torrent down in one go.
• Sammael goes around in the squad with plasma guns, who (usually) don't combat squad. Never with the Command squad!They are a big target for opponents (Sammael is usually my Warlord) but skilled rider and improved cover saves makes them a really good unit that can easily support your knights in assault or shooting. In the command squad, the benefits of H&R and Skilled Rider are lost - better to have another unit that can be a bugger to remove.
• The RWC banner squad should always be boosting - then, giving my whole army the benefits of the banner in one shooting phase is easy. This works on two levels; one, I don't have to worry about positioning the whole army perfectly in relation to the command squad for my opponents shooting phase so that it doesn't die easily (I can re-position on the turbo boost) and it also means I don't have to squeeze together to get the most out of the army.

 

So far, the force has worked really well. I have beaten dual council Eldar/D.Eldar, Marines of various colours, Shooty GK's, Guard and Orks. Still testing, as I said, but we shall see.

 

Without this particular banner, the army would not work. Wraiths, Scarabs, Guard Blobs - without the Salvo shots, you just cannot kill them all, even with special weapons and psychic powers, and getting close enough to dent them will see too many bikes go down in the return fire. Eventually, you will need the other tools and the banner might well bite the dust, but until then, every single unit is a massive threat. For that reason alone, I would never not take this banner for a pure RW force.

 

NR

I am planning a similar list (1750). Difference is I dont have a techmarine and I use a unit of Black knights 9 men strong and 1 RW bike unit less than you. Also I have 2 Land speeders.

But I am considering the option you have, having the Black knights as command squads instead. Now my question is... have you had problems with two small units, or have it benit you more to have two instead of one large unit?

[John_f]

Hi all,

 

I just wanted to chime in with my own experiences so far with pure Ravenwing and the Banner of devastation.

 

I run this at 1750:

 

Sammael

Librarian Lvl 1, Bike, Power Field, Auspex

Techmarine on Bike

 

RW Command with Bannner of Devastation, Apothecary, 3x Plasma Talon

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

 

6 RW bikes, two with plasma gun.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes

 

Dark Shroud with Heavy bolter

 

1749pts

 

Obviously, this list runs with the caveat that you are allowed a command squad by the techmarine. If not, you have to lose the auspex and take one squad of Knights as a Fast Attack choice.

 

For 1850, add two more attack bikes (one with HB) to improve your shooting & scoring.

 

So, the oh-so-subtle plan with this army... you scout, you shoot! Simples.

 

The techmarine and librarian go in the command squad, providing a 2+ save to tank wounds as well as the benefits of the Librarian (who always rolls on divination) and so far, has been pretty durable (I am building up to games against Daemons and 'crons for practice this week, and have yet to play the Helldrake!). The command squad almost never doesn't boost around, unless it is plannig to assault. I might well change them to have a grenade launcher at some point, but their has rarely been something left after everything has shot that they can get to assault!

 

If i manage to get a decent power, I sometimes take the Librarian out of the command squad, but usually he chills there for extra durability.

 

Other cunning tactics -

 

 

• You combat squad all of the melta and bolter bike squads. Yes, you make the army more vunerable to giving away first blood, but you also have greater flexibility with the 12 TL-bolter shots at 24" from each combat squad, allowing you to spread fire around, as well as greater scoring and targets that are much harder for your opponent to torrent down in one go.
• Sammael goes around in the squad with plasma guns, who (usually) don't combat squad. Never with the Command squad!They are a big target for opponents (Sammael is usually my Warlord) but skilled rider and improved cover saves makes them a really good unit that can easily support your knights in assault or shooting. In the command squad, the benefits of H&R and Skilled Rider are lost - better to have another unit that can be a bugger to remove.
• The RWC banner squad should always be boosting - then, giving my whole army the benefits of the banner in one shooting phase is easy. This works on two levels; one, I don't have to worry about positioning the whole army perfectly in relation to the command squad for my opponents shooting phase so that it doesn't die easily (I can re-position on the turbo boost) and it also means I don't have to squeeze together to get the most out of the army.

 

So far, the force has worked really well. I have beaten dual council Eldar/D.Eldar, Marines of various colours, Shooty GK's, Guard and Orks. Still testing, as I said, but we shall see.

 

Without this particular banner, the army would not work. Wraiths, Scarabs, Guard Blobs - without the Salvo shots, you just cannot kill them all, even with special weapons and psychic powers, and getting close enough to dent them will see too many bikes go down in the return fire. Eventually, you will need the other tools and the banner might well bite the dust, but until then, every single unit is a massive threat. For that reason alone, I would never not take this banner for a pure RW force.

 

NR

With this list do you usually try to assault or you you stay away from close combat. Yeah, I understand it is depending on your enemy but in generall?

[Jehoel]

 

Hi all,

 

I just wanted to chime in with my own experiences so far with pure Ravenwing and the Banner of devastation.

 

I run this at 1750:

 

Sammael

Librarian Lvl 1, Bike, Power Field, Auspex

Techmarine on Bike

 

RW Command with Bannner of Devastation, Apothecary, 3x Plasma Talon

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

RW Command with 2x Plasma talon, 1xRW Grenade launcher

 

6 RW bikes, two with plasma gun.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes, two with melta gun, MM attack bike.

6 RW bikes

 

Dark Shroud with Heavy bolter

 

1749pts

 

Obviously, this list runs with the caveat that you are allowed a command squad by the techmarine. If not, you have to lose the auspex and take one squad of Knights as a Fast Attack choice.

 

For 1850, add two more attack bikes (one with HB) to improve your shooting & scoring.

 

So, the oh-so-subtle plan with this army... you scout, you shoot! Simples.

 

The techmarine and librarian go in the command squad, providing a 2+ save to tank wounds as well as the benefits of the Librarian (who always rolls on divination) and so far, has been pretty durable (I am building up to games against Daemons and 'crons for practice this week, and have yet to play the Helldrake!). The command squad almost never doesn't boost around, unless it is plannig to assault. I might well change them to have a grenade launcher at some point, but their has rarely been something left after everything has shot that they can get to assault!

 

If i manage to get a decent power, I sometimes take the Librarian out of the command squad, but usually he chills there for extra durability.

 

Other cunning tactics -

 

• You combat squad all of the melta and bolter bike squads. Yes, you make the army more vunerable to giving away first blood, but you also have greater flexibility with the 12 TL-bolter shots at 24" from each combat squad, allowing you to spread fire around, as well as greater scoring and targets that are much harder for your opponent to torrent down in one go.
• Sammael goes around in the squad with plasma guns, who (usually) don't combat squad. Never with the Command squad!They are a big target for opponents (Sammael is usually my Warlord) but skilled rider and improved cover saves makes them a really good unit that can easily support your knights in assault or shooting. In the command squad, the benefits of H&R and Skilled Rider are lost - better to have another unit that can be a bugger to remove.
• The RWC banner squad should always be boosting - then, giving my whole army the benefits of the banner in one shooting phase is easy. This works on two levels; one, I don't have to worry about positioning the whole army perfectly in relation to the command squad for my opponents shooting phase so that it doesn't die easily (I can re-position on the turbo boost) and it also means I don't have to squeeze together to get the most out of the army.

 

So far, the force has worked really well. I have beaten dual council Eldar/D.Eldar, Marines of various colours, Shooty GK's, Guard and Orks. Still testing, as I said, but we shall see.

 

Without this particular banner, the army would not work. Wraiths, Scarabs, Guard Blobs - without the Salvo shots, you just cannot kill them all, even with special weapons and psychic powers, and getting close enough to dent them will see too many bikes go down in the return fire. Eventually, you will need the other tools and the banner might well bite the dust, but until then, every single unit is a massive threat. For that reason alone, I would never not take this banner for a pure RW force.

 

NR

I am planning a similar list (1750). Difference is I dont have a techmarine and I use a unit of Black knights 9 men strong and 1 RW bike unit less than you. Also I have 2 Land speeders.

But I am considering the option you have, having the Black knights as command squads instead. Now my question is... have you had problems with two small units, or have it benit you more to have two instead of one large unit?

 

The Ravenwing Command Squad is a Black Knight squad. They have Plasma Talons on their bikes as standard in the Codex and one can swap out for a Grenade Launcher.

[Nightrunner]

Hi all, some comments on the list, then.

 

 

 

Brother Immolator

My whole skepticism with your list is that you don't have enough anti tank.
2mm and 2 melta guns are too low for my tastes. You need to bring those bikers
to bear too close for my taste. But yes it is a good list.
 

 

Yeah, I can see you point about ranged anti-armour - I acutally think that this is the weakest part of the list. Although there are 4 Melta guns :-)

 

Ideally, I need to throw the meltas that I have forward, and hope something hits. In that case, I would likely try and presience one, but even then my chances are not amazing. I have thought long and hard about dropping a RAS to get more range in, but I just struggle with the lack of bodies, then, IMHO.

 

I am planning a similar list (1750). Difference is I dont have a techmarine and I use a unit of Black knights 9 men strong and 1 RW bike unit less than you. Also I have 2 Land speeders.

 

But I am considering the option you have, having the Black knights as command squads instead. Now my question is... have you had problems with two small units, or have it benit you more to have two instead of one large unit?

 

I like the three (!) small units. They offer flexibility in terms of targets as well as soaking firepower. Nine, however, is a massive threat that can't be ignored - I just prefer smaller chunks that are harder to prioritise for my opponent as well as more flexible for me.

 

Also, the speeders are an easy kill point where the bikes do not have to be, at least in the games that I have played. I am, though, considering dropping a unit of troops, as I stated above, and seeing if I can still cope with the scoring demands.

 

 

With this list do you usually try to assault or you you stay away from close combat. Yeah, I understand it is depending on your enemy but in generall?

 

Out of CC, unless I can hide for a turn. In my last turn against IG, I used a blob squad to hide Sammael and the remnants of a squad for a turn. Even with an attached character in the blob (Ezekiel), I was able to survive, hold him up and run away for my turn.

 

CC is the last resort. In that case, I  would throw my "full" RWC, the two smaller knight units and Sammael's unit at a target, but only if it was the last option.

I would often rather boost and take my 2+ cover save, far away, ready to shoot where I want to.

 

NR

 

 

[outrider]

I'm looking to rebuild my Deathwing force to the new codex and this thread inspired me to look into standards deaper than "company standard and off we go".

 

Without getting into boring details of the list I've been working on today, I thought to myself why not try to use two standards?

 

I like the Deathwing Company Standard's +1 attack, even more so with area effect now. I also don't like the new apothecary because of no cloce combat option, hence the Standard of Fortitude seems like a nice replacement.

 

Basic Lev 1 Librarian in terminator armour is cheap, less than 100pts, and allows an extra Command Squad. So if you're willing to sacrifice a Troop choice and the Standard of Fortitude was your first choice, an additional baner can be yours for only 139.99, even less after discounting now redundant apothecary.

 

In my case I ended up with Belial, Libby, 2x HQ Squad (10), 3x Deathwing Squad (15), 1x Deathwing Knights (5) = 32 models for approx 1885pts.

 

Seems like a good idea to me, but what do you think?

[Artemid]

If you're going to run two command squads (intriguing...) I might drop the knights down to normal DW. 3 5 man scoring units at near 2k is really not enough.