Jumping out of a burning aeroplane...

[Seahawk]

So naturally, Thursday night happened and another odd rules interaction showed up in our games. Good times.

 

This one involves Stormravens and Valkyries. Specifically, Skies of Blood, Shadow Skies, and Grav Chute Insertion.

 

Skies of Blood: “If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows. Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved over and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point. / If any of the models cannot be deployed the unit is destroyed”.

 

Shadow Skies: “If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows. Nominate any point over which the Stormraven moved over and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point. / If any of the models cannot be deployed the unit is destroyed”.

 

Grav Chute Insertion: “If a Valkyrie or Vendetta has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark, but they must do so as follows. Nominate any point over which the Valkyrie or Vendetta moved over and deploy the squad as if it were deep striking onto that point. / If any of the models cannot be deployed the unit is destroyed”.

 

 

1. Obviously, they all read the same. They also read that the flyer had to make and complete its move to make use of this rule. Yes?

 

Here's what happened. My flakk missiles (worth the cost!) scored an Immobilized result on the Stormraven (carrying his warlord and five Grey Knight Terminators), which forces it into Locked Velocity. Since it moved 36" last turn, it had to move 36" again this turn (BRB and FAQ). Let's say, for the sake of the discussion, the only places it can move to are occupied with friendly/enemy models (could happen in Apocalypse). 

 

2. What happens to the flyer? I can only find that the rules say it crashes if it moves less than 18", not if it's forced to end its movement on enemy models. We played that it crashes.

 

3. If it crashes, are passengers allowed to bail out via one of the special rules above? Despite utterly dominating my opponent with hundreds of plague zombies, I couldn't find any rule that would actually allow him to get out. The Flyer must complete its move before the guys inside are allowed to use the special rule, but since we played that it crashes, that happens before they get out. Seems silly, but that's how it reads. I allowed him to 4+ it to be able to magically bail out 'cause I'm a nice guy and it was an unfamiliar situation.

 

 

 

4. Unrelated: If a flyer is Zooming, can they still get out? BRB says no: "models cannot embark upon or disembark from a Zooming Flyer." Codex says yes?: "If the Stormraven has moved more than 6", passengers can still disembark"

[Gentlemanloser]

If it crashes, are passengers allowed to bail out via one of the special rules above?

Yes.

Shadowed skies only mentiones "If the Stormraven has moved more than 6"". It had. That it crashed at the end is immaterial.

4. Unrelated: If a flyer is Zooming, can they still get out?

Yes again. Codex > BRB. I think it's even covered in a FAQ.

Edit:

If you want to think about it from a RAI PoV, if the unit disembarks 10" into the 36" move, it *must* disembark before the flyer has finished it's move.

As the flyer moved more than 10".

While the unit couldn't disembark 10" into the flgith path, if they're actually leaping out of the plane 36" away.

If that makes sense.

[Seahawk]

Remember page 10 though: "Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit."

 

Disembarking is moving. There's no possible way for the passengers to disembark mid-move of the Stormraven or Valkyrie. Their move is based off the entirety of the flyer's move, because you can pick any point for them to get off. The flyer moves first and completes the move, crashing. The passengers then immediately suffer the effects, because that happens at the end of the flyer's move, before another unit (the passengers) is allowed to move.

[Gentlemanloser]

I still don't think this is an issue.

 

Is this the whole scenario?

 

1: Flyer is zooming and suffers 'locked velocity'

2: The flyer must move 36", but cannot, as that would break the 1" base contact rule.

3: The Flyer can be forced to move slower, it just can't be voluntary.

 

So the flyer stops 1" away.

 

4: If there's so many minis in the way it's forced to move less than 18", it becomes wrecked.

5: Transports and Wrecked results, the passengers 'must immediatley disembark'.  Usually you can't from a zooming flyer.

6: The 'Shadowed Skies' special rule overrules the BRB restriction on disembarkation from a zooming flyer, and allows the unit to disembark using it's rules.

 

The FAQ allows Shadowed skies to be used while in Locked velocity (which wsn't really needed to be FAQed...), and back to the in game PoV, the unit see's the plane going down, and jumps out for dear life, before it hits the ground. ;)

[Leonaides]

you're playing apocalypse and worring about a rules issue??? I feel for you, I really do. In this situation you only have to ask yourself "What would Rambo do?" and you have the answer. Anything else is not playing by the rules of apocalypse.

[Seahawk]

 

you're playing apocalypse and worring about a rules issue???

Not the issue, nor is it helping. For the record it wasn't an Apocalypse game, just a case of mistaken actions, but the fact remains is that it came up as a curious thought that we amicably worked out without a problem. 

 

 

 

The Flyer can be forced to move slower, it just can't be voluntary.

According to what rules? It absolutely must move 36" and cannot reduce it in any way. It also cannot move onto enemy models, but there are no rules to handle this situation. 

 

If we need to reiterate:

 

#1 There are no rules to deal with what happens when a flyer can't move to where it's forced to move, except for under 18".

#2 According to the rules, the flyer crashes before guys can get out.

 

"Wants" don't always equal "haves" when dealing with the rules. 

[Gentlemanloser]

The Flyer and movement rules.

 

 

Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18".  If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18"

 

A velocity locked Flyer must move 36", but that's voluntary movement.  It can be foced to move less, just like a non velocity locked Flyer can be forced to move less than 18"

 

Unless you want to rule that a velocity Locked Flyer cannot be forced to move, in any fashion.

 

 

According to the rules, the flyer crashes before guys can get out

 

That's not correct.

 

when a flyer crashes, it's treated a 'Wrecked'.  A Wrecked result informs us that the passengers *must* disembark.

 

BRB states you cannot disembark from a zooming flyer.

 

Shadowed Skies over rules this as it's a Codex rule (and has also been FAQed to be allowed).

 

The flyer Crashes, which forces a disembark, that only a handful of Flyers have the ability to allow thier passengers to do so.

[Seahawk]

 

A velocity locked Flyer must move 36", but that's voluntary movement

You do realize the massive contradiction here, yes?

 

"Must" does not gel with "voluntary". 

 

 

A Wrecked result informs us that the passengers *must* disembark.

No, they never disembark when it crashes, they follow the rules on page 81. They suffer a S10 hit with no armor saves, then are placed within 3" of the final template.

 

This is the order of operations:

 

1. Suffer Lock Velocity at Cruising Speed. Go to 2.

2. Must move 36". Not up to, not any less, but exactly 36". If you cannot, then [rules failure]. If you presume it's wrecked, then go to 4.

3. ?

4. Center the large blast on the flyer, scatter it, resolve hits on models underneath. Go to 5.

5. Resolve S10, no armor save hits on passengers. Go to 6.

6. Place survivors within 3" of the blast template. Go to 7.

7. It's now the passengers' turn to move. Go to 8.

8. They cannot disembark from a vehicle they are not in. Go to 9.

9. They can move, shoot, and assault without any restrictions because they did not disembark from a vehicle.

 

So now, not only do we have the other problems we still haven't resolved, now I've just found that getting blown out of a flyer has absolutely no negatives, unlike a regular transport (well, other than the damage of course...). 

 

Discuss.

[dswanick]

I agree with Gentlemanloser's assessment of the situation.

 

Locked Velocity Zooming Flyers can be Involuntarily forced to move less than 36".

Only if the Flyer moves less than 18" is it Wrecked (Crashes).

So long as it moved more than 6" before being Wrecked (Crashing), the occupants can Disembark using Skies of Blood (or equivalent).

[Seahawk]

I just don't see it because that's not what the rules say.

[Gentlemanloser]

Seahawk, a Zooming Flyer *must* move between 18" and 36".  Is that a voluntary move?

 

As for 'Crash and Burn', that rule allpies becuase the BRB state you cannot disembark from a zooming flyer.

 

What happens when a flyer is forced to move less than 18"?

 

 

it is auromatically wrecked.

 

What do the wrecked rules state?

 

 

Wrecked. The passengers must immediately disembark
in the usual manner (see page 79)

 

Except you can't disembark form a zooming flyer.

 

So you 'Crash and burn'.

 

But.

 

SR and Valks allow you to disembark, so you can.

 

Codex > BRB.

 

Both Wrecked and Crash and Burn are advanced rules, so neither have any weight over the other.

[Raeven]

Can't you just disembark before the move?

 

And the flyer can't find a spot to turn that will keep it from landing on something else, even if that means flying off the table edge?

[Gentlemanloser]

Problem is Shadowed Skies requires the Raven to have moved over 6" before you can use it.

 

And you can't disembark from a zooming flyer without using it.

 

I know, it's a crappy hold over from an out of date rule...  But do you expect anything more from GW?

[Seahawk]

The problem is that you're still ignoring the order of how things play out, which I gave a few posts back. Once the vehicle is wrecked (if you play it that way), there is nothing for the passengers to disembark from, so the special rules never come into play. Again, one unit must finish its move before another can begin theirs. 

 

 

Seahawk, a Zooming Flyer *must* move between 18" and 36".  Is that a voluntary move?

Of course it's not. It must move a varied distance; once it reaches 18, you can do what you like, but that's not the point. Locked Velocity forces it to have a single value that must be attained: 36". Anything less and you're not following the rules. The problem is that the rules don't tell you what to do in this situation. There is no solution, other than what one decides to make up, and options are: reduce speed (not allowed), become wrecked (not expressed), or increase speed (not allowed).

 

 

Heck, I'm finding lots of problems with the flyer rules. I sure hope they get massively cleaned up in Death from the Skies, but it's too late to submit any questions for that...oh well. Here's more that I've found (and the original questions still haven't been answered! except for #4, that was easy ;))

 

5. What happens if a flyer moving at cruising speed suffers Locked Velocity and Crew Stunned in the same turn? (Does it move only 18" or only 36"?)

 

6. What happens if a flyer is forced to end its move on top of friendly/enemy models? (There is nothing that actually ever addresses this.)

[Gentlemanloser]

The problem is that you're still ignoring the order of how things play

out, which I gave a few posts back. Once the vehicle is wrecked (if you

play it that way), there is nothing for the passengers to disembark

from, so the special rules never come into play. Again, one unit must

finish its move before another can begin theirs.

 

I don't understand.  You disembark from any other wrecked Transport, why is this an issue for flyers?

 

 

Of course it's not. It must move a varied distance; once it reaches 18, you can do what you like, but that's not the point.

 

So zooming flyers *never* have voluntary movement?

 

 

5. What happens if a flyer moving at cruising speed suffers Locked

Velocity and Crew Stunned in the same turn? (Does it move only 18" or

only 36"?)

 

Easy.  Whoevers turn it is decides the order.  18" from Crew stunned, or 36" from Locked Velocity.  As it's moving in the owners turn, it will *laways* be the owners choice.

 

Ah, good ol' GW.  Advanced - Advanced rule conflicts *never* happen!  Right? :P

 

 

6. What happens if a flyer is forced to end its move on top of

friendly/enemy models? (There is nothing that actually ever addresses

this.)

 

They can't.  You cannot end your move within 1".  You're 'forced' not to.

[stephane4985]

Locked velocity force you to move 36 inch since it was the last speed before being locked. That is calrify in the faq. So if you can't move 36 inch, you crash.

 

At first, I agreed with seahawk as the rule tell you that you do the disembark after the stormraven has finished its move. So you need to do the move completely before you can disembark the guys along the way of the stormraven. So at first I though, you can't disembark along the path if it crashes.

 

But then, I realised, if it is force to move 36 inch and then crash if it can't be placed, then theoritically, it did move more than 6 inch. It just crash after his move of 36 inch. So yes, I think you can disembark then as the stormraven did move 36 inch (which is more that 6 inch), and it was not crashed until after having reach 36 inch and found out you can't place it. Otherwise, If it was not consider as moving more that 6 inch, it would crash and burn at its starting point.

[Gentlemanloser]

So if you can't move 36 inch, you crash.

 

There's no rule to support that.

 

Edit;

 

You could try to make the case that 'Crash and Burn' superceeds 'Wrecked', but then we're back to Adcanced versus Advanced. 

 

'Crash and Burn' shold really be an 'advanced' vehicle rule, that is applied to the 'basic' vehicle ruleset.

 

But GW can't write for toffee...

[tvih]

I've pondered about disembaring from locked velocity zoomed fliers - seems it indeed can't be done, save with the help of those rules.

 

However, I don't see there being a problem disembarking the troops via those rules even if the flyer ends up crashing. Why? Because despite you finishing the flyer move before doing the disembark physically, in actuality the troops disembarked while the flyer was still in the air flying along the specified path. Things don't really happen in the correct chronological order in 40k. I mean actually your models move at the same time, not one at a time. Even that aside, just think about Vector Strike. You've already moved over a model, yet only after you've finished your movement do you roll the attacks. It's not like your FMC/Heldrake magically warps back in its path to attack the model/unit you passed over - you just resolve it afterwards. Disembarking using those rules is the same thing. Dropping bombs in movement phase is the same thing.

[Raeven]

The problem is that you're still ignoring the order of how things play out, which I gave a few posts back. Once the vehicle is wrecked (if you play it that way), there is nothing for the passengers to disembark from, so the special rules never come into play. Again, one unit must finish its move before another can begin theirs. 

 

 

Seahawk, a Zooming Flyer *must* move between 18" and 36".  Is that a voluntary move?

Of course it's not. It must move a varied distance; once it reaches 18, you can do what you like, but that's not the point. Locked Velocity forces it to have a single value that must be attained: 36". Anything less and you're not following the rules. The problem is that the rules don't tell you what to do in this situation. There is no solution, other than what one decides to make up, and options are: reduce speed (not allowed), become wrecked (not expressed), or increase speed (not allowed).

 

5. What happens if a flyer moving at cruising speed suffers Locked Velocity and Crew Stunned in the same turn? (Does it move only 18" or only 36"?)

 

6. What happens if a flyer is forced to end its move on top of friendly/enemy models? (There is nothing that actually ever addresses this.)

 

 

5.  I think I'm with Gentleman Loser and dswanick here.  You are forced to move 36" by locked velocity.  Other factors can force you to move less than that, mainly the 1"/base to base rule.  So if you cannot find a spot to move your flyer that doesn't break that rule, you are forced to reduce your speed until you no longer break the rule.  IF that means you move less than 18", you crash and burn.

 

There is nothing that says you wreck just because you cannot move 36".  Just that you cannot voluntarily change your speed when suffering locked velocity.  This means you could be forced to move off the table edge to keep from flying into other units.  So, assuming it survives the next round, it still has to move 36" and can be forced to reduce that move by other rules.

 

6.  You cannot.  You must choose a move that will prevent you from breaking that rule, even that means going off the table edge.  Only if there is no other choice, do you face the situation you described above.

 

 

To address the three rules for disembarking from a Zooming flyer, I would say they allow you to disembark since it is in that players movement phase.  Even though the craft crashed, they are still allowed to choose a spot that the flyer moved from and disembark using the special rule.

[maturin]

Seahawk, you realize you've created your own rules quandry here? As others have pointed out, there's no basis to assume that a flyer crashes in the situation you've described. You could just as easily have chosen to reduce the movement or move the models underneath out of the way, both just as valid as forcing the flyer to crash (ie, no rules to cover this but valid actions elsewhere in 40k). So why would you not choose the interpretation that leaves the fewest gameplay challenges?

I find the whole situation very un-cinematic.

Pilot: "Uh oh, our throttle's locked. Whew, at least we're keeping our airspeed up and we have plenty of altitude."

Co-Pilot: "Oh noes! There's a unit of orks underneath us!"

Pilot: "Oh, in that case, we're dead."

*Plane crashes*

[Raeven]

Yea, the whole base rule with flyers is kinda retarded, imo.

 

They should have made these things one acrylic stilts, so it had no base to worry about. :)

[Seahawk]

I don't understand. You disembark from any other wrecked Transport, why is this an issue for flyers?

The rules for flyers say, 1, that you can never disembark from them, and 2, when it crashes, you don't disembark from it, you simply plop out. Therefore you don't suffer the penalties of disembarking because you're not actually disembarking! Huzzah!

Of course it's not. It must move a varied distance; once it reaches 18, you can do what you like, but that's not the point.

So zooming flyers *never* have voluntary movement?

Bingo. A flyer must move between 18 and 36". When you Lock Velocity at cruising speed, you must always move at 36", no more, and absolutely not less. Nobody has been able to produce a rule that says you are allowed to reduce your movement to be able to land legally. It's listed in the Inertial Guidance rules, but that's specifically for drop pods (and whatever else gets to reduce distance, etc).

5. What happens if a flyer moving at cruising speed suffers Locked

Velocity and Crew Stunned in the same turn? (Does it move only 18" or

only 36"?)

Easy. Whoevers turn it is decides the order. 18" from Crew stunned, or 36" from Locked Velocity. As it's moving in the owners turn, it will *laways* be the owners choice.

Ah, good ol' GW. Advanced - Advanced rule conflicts *never* happen! Right?

Good point. Unfortunately, it only comes into play when both players have a simul event, not when one player has two simul events.

6. What happens if a flyer is forced to end its move on top of

friendly/enemy models? (There is nothing that actually ever addresses

this.)

They can't. You cannot end your move within 1". You're 'forced' not to.

You are forced to move 36". You are forced you stay 1" away. What takes precedence? Well, the former is an advanced rule, the latter is a basic. Thus, 36" overrides 1" and the flyer must land on enemy models.

Locked velocity force you to move 36 inch since it was the last speed before being locked. That is calrify in the faq. So if you can't move 36 inch, you crash.,

At first, I agreed with seahawk as the rule tell you that you do the disembark after the stormraven has finished its move. So you need to do the move completely before you can disembark the guys along the way of the stormraven. So at first I though, you can't disembark along the path if it crashes.

But then, I realised, if it is force to move 36 inch and then crash if it can't be placed, then theoritically, it did move more than 6 inch. It just crash after his move of 36 inch. So yes, I think you can disembark then as the stormraven did move 36 inch (which is more that 6 inch), and it was not crashed until after having reach 36 inch and found out you can't place it. Otherwise, If it was not consider as moving more that 6 inch, it would crash and burn at its starting point.

To your first point, yes and no, and that's the conundrum.

Q: If a Flyer suffers Locked Velocity and was moving at Cruising

Speed (18"-36"), what speed is its velocity actually locked at? (p81)

A: 36".

and

Crew Stunned: If the vehicle is a Zooming Flyer it instead can only move 18" and cannot turn.

It cannot move more than 18". It cannot move any less than 36". So...what happens? GML suggests the "Exceptions" rule on page 9, but unfortunately as mentioned above, it doesn't quite work. I think.

5. I think I'm with Gentleman Loser and dswanick here. You are forced to move 36" by locked velocity. Other factors can force you to move less than that, mainly the 1"/base to base rule. So if you cannot find a spot to move your flyer that doesn't break that rule, you are forced to reduce your speed until you no longer break the rule. IF that means you move less than 18", you crash and burn.

As mentioned above, there are no rules that allow you to reduce your speed, and indeed the 36" rule overrides the 1" rule.

There is nothing that says you wreck just because you cannot move 36". Just that you cannot voluntarily change your speed when suffering locked velocity. This means you could be forced to move off the table edge to keep from flying into other units. So, assuming it survives the next round, it still has to move 36" and can be forced to reduce that move by other rules.

6. You cannot. You must choose a move that will prevent you from breaking that rule, even that means going off the table edge. Only if there is no other choice, do you face the situation you described above.

To address the three rules for disembarking from a Zooming flyer, I would say they allow you to disembark since it is in that players movement phase. Even though the craft crashed, they are still allowed to choose a spot that the flyer moved from and disembark using the special rule.

I'm starting to see how one could rule that you could get out, with two simultaneous (and not otherwise allowed by the rules) moves happening...I just prefer the rules to otherwise. Even when they utterly fail.

Seahawk, you realize you've created your own rules quandry here? As others have pointed out, there's no basis to assume that a flyer crashes in the situation you've described. You could just as easily have chosen to reduce the movement or move the models underneath out of the way, both just as valid as forcing the flyer to crash (ie, no rules to cover this but valid actions elsewhere in 40k). So why would you not choose the interpretation that leaves the fewest gameplay challenges?

Right! There is no rules solution to this problem! Which creates more problems and...this thread.

[Raeven]

A forced reduction in movement is not the same thing as a change in speed.  Otherwise, how can you be forced to move less than 18" when you cannot voluntarily choose to do so?  Yes, your velocity is locked, but that ruling does not override the ability of other situations/rules to force you to move less than max.

 

The Black Templar's have a similar situation.  The FAQ states that we must make our Righteous Zeal move in full towards the nearest enemy.  Well, if my unit is 4 inches away from the closest enemy, and I roll a 4-6, I still cannot move within 1" of enemy bases.  I have to stop at 3 inches from the nearest enemy to leave 1 inch of space between bases.

 

The 1" rule is one that cannot be broken without permission.  Only Charging during assault gives models that permission.

 

 

I'm starting to see how one could rule that you could get out, with two simultaneous (and not otherwise allowed by the rules) moves happening...I just prefer the rules to otherwise. Even when they utterly fail.

 

These special rules for disembarking are not simultaneous moves.  The rule allows you to choose any spot over which the plane moved.  You HAVE to move the plane first, to even use those three rules.  You may then disembark using the special rules.  The end condition of the plane only affects the crew when the crew can take no action to get out...i.e. cannot disembark because of no special rule, or in attacking players turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

The rules for flyers say, 1, that you can never disembark from them, and
2, when it crashes, you don't disembark from it, you simply plop out.
Therefore you don't suffer the penalties of disembarking because you're
not actually disembarking! Huzzah!

 

The rules for transports say you disembark when wrecked.  The rules in some Codexs say you *can* disembark from a zooming flyer.

 

Page 7. ;)  We all love it!

 

 

Bingo.

 

So you never voluntarily move your own flyer.  Like choosing it's direction *before* you move it?

 

As said above, please explain how a flyer can be *forced* to move less than 18".  Which they can, as it's in the rules.

 

 

but unfortunately as mentioned above, it doesn't quite work. I think.

 

Aye.

 

GW tried with the Whole Codex > Advanced > Basic to make a robust system.

 

Sadly, they failed to adress Codex - Codex (or Advanced - Advanced / Basic - Basic) conflicts.  Becuase those can never happen, right? ;)

 

In addtion, thie whole Basic or Advanced is bogus.  The rules for Flyers should be 'Advanced' vehicle rules, built on a 'basic' vehicle ruleselt.

 

Just look at 'Crash and Burn'.  Flyers suffer the usual damage results, with these two exceptions.  Really?  Advanced rules replacing, Advanced rules?  That's not how your rulebook works GW...

 

But I'm sure you've hit the nail on the head, and we all have the luxury of paying for the fix to make Flyers work, when the new suppliment is released.

 

Personally, I'm not going to spend a penny on that supliment.

[Seahawk]

Then I'll let you know when I get that lovely soft-cover book. ;)