How nerfed is Descent of Angels.

[daveclark890]

Not long before the end of 5th I built a DoA army 1750 points of jump pack toting angry marines with priests and chaplains and a couple of other bits but ALL had jump packs and all came in from reserve.

 

Then 6th hit and only half your army can start in reserve, multi assault is pointless, power fist sgts get nailed in challenges before they get to swing

 

I ask you though, does DoA have a place in the current game.

 

Do you need to keep half your army in reserve. How about a tactical few components? What are the advantages of jump pack troops on the table compared to walkers.

 

I don't see a disadvantage of taking most of my stuff on the table, 2 full assault squads jumping across the table from cover to cover with a 12" move + run can completely switch sides of the table in 2 turns, by which time your select few DoA units come in. VV can hit the turn they arrive and HG loaded out with special weapons can vaporise a nasty target like an HQ as your main force arrives having drawn you opponent to deploy most of his army on the opposite side of the table.

 

Yeah they don't have heavy weapons, and they have no way of taking down flyers but they have other advantages. Fast, highly mobile, capable of swamping 1 part of the enemy army and capable of dealing with armour and MEQ, some flames will help with hoards and plasma will help with TEQ.

 

So who has had success with their old DoA lists with a bit of modification?

[JamesI]

Well, I never ran pure DOA anyway, so my lists still seem to work.  I always started much of my force on the board, unless facing something like an IG Tankline.

 

But DOA as a strategy really needs some on the board complimetns, like devs or attack bikes now.

[Wulfgar 25]

Not long before the end of 5th I built a DoA army 1750 points of jump pack toting angry marines with priests and chaplains and a couple of other bits but ALL had jump packs and all came in from reserve.

 

Then 6th hit and only half your army can start in reserve, multi assault is pointless, power fist sgts get nailed in challenges before they get to swing

 

I ask you though, does DoA have a place in the current game.

 

Do you need to keep half your army in reserve. How about a tactical few components? What are the advantages of jump pack troops on the table compared to walkers.

 

I don't see a disadvantage of taking most of my stuff on the table, 2 full assault squads jumping across the table from cover to cover with a 12" move + run can completely switch sides of the table in 2 turns, by which time your select few DoA units come in. VV can hit the turn they arrive and HG loaded out with special weapons can vaporise a nasty target like an HQ as your main force arrives having drawn you opponent to deploy most of his army on the opposite side of the table.

 

Yeah they don't have heavy weapons, and they have no way of taking down flyers but they have other advantages. Fast, highly mobile, capable of swamping 1 part of the enemy army and capable of dealing with armour and MEQ, some flames will help with hoards and plasma will help with TEQ.

 

So who has had success with their old DoA lists with a bit of modification?

 

 

Well, I would prefer only one or two meltas, and not plasma or flames. Remember that now you have grenades now, good for tank killing and dealing with big creatures, so I guess only one melta would be good. And you can do a lot of damage with only jump pack and 2 weapons: 2 attacks more 1 from the charge more one from hammer of wrath, if I am not missing nothing, so you don't want to spend them with meltas. What do you think?

[Xenith]

To me, the 'DoA' style army was a gimmick that people got carried away with. They read 'DoA army' and automatically assumed that all your dudes always had to start in deep strike.

 

It was generally, always much better to start with your forces on the table to get a T2 charge, as opposed to T3. As with James, the only reason to go all deepstrike was when faced with multiple ordnance, and your dudes would be blown off the table T1.

 

To this effect, the DoA rule has not been nerfed at all. It still brings your dudes in reliably.

 

Armies made to exploit this rule, however, have been made unplayable. As have all the other full reserve armies that exist, namely the eldar 2 autarch lists, which needed to be off board T1 to stand a chance.

[knife&fork]

Not long before the end of 5th I built a DoA army 1750 points of jump pack toting angry marines with priests and chaplains and a couple of other bits but ALL had jump packs and all came in from reserve.

 

Then 6th hit and only half your army can start in reserve, multi assault is pointless, power fist sgts get nailed in challenges before they get to swing

 

I ask you though, does DoA have a place in the current game.

 

 

Only if you like to lose or you play in a very relaxed and non competitive group. 

 

Pure DoA got a few buffs like 3+ reserve rolls and more forgiving DS table but just about every other rule change in 6th nerfed them. I successfully played a jumpers + terminators list in 5th and it was made unplayable over night when the new edition hit. We lost survivability, damage output and mobility all at once.

 

I love my jumpers but they will be sitting on the shelf until the meta makes them good again. You might be a able to use them as the lesser part of a hybrid force, or perhaps 'count as' using a different codex. 

[Long Fang]

I have around half the 8th comapany built and painted with a few support units, raven, stormtalon and speeders. I was planning to build the whole company anyway but my possible Bikers got made into a 'will build next' with the new rulebook, speeders just aren't survivable enough for me, if theres not much cover they are alittle to easy to remove from the table early on.

[Brother apocalyptic]

I intend on having 2-3 small units of ass marines deeping in and meltagunning some nasty in the ass... At the moment I run 1 of those units and each game they have popped a tank or transport bearing some fearsome CC unit.. Always made thier points back...

[BassMattJaxx]

DoA as a perk for Assault Marines, is nice. I never used it as an army wide stratergy in 5th, so I can't comment on that. But, I'm currently doing something similar to brother apoc, by taking advantage of the gunslinger rule as well.

2x inferno pistol and a melta gun in the squad, and deep strike within 3" of a tank. With DoA, hopefully you won't scatter to far, and be able to do some damage. Also the re-roll for reserves is really helpful.

 

This is how I'm running my Assault Marines now, at least in the short term.

[Brother apocalyptic]

Also keep in mind that if you scatter Behind a vehicle, you most often wont be needing that extra melta penning dice... Most only have av10 in the ass, and as such your 3-4 boltpistols vill be able to score at least 1 glance

[Captain Idaho]

To me, the 'DoA' style army was a gimmick that people got carried away with. They read 'DoA army' and automatically assumed that all your dudes always had to start in deep strike.

 

This is a common problem in 40K social circles. There is a myth that to win 40K you need to kill your opponents as quickly and efficiently as possible and this skews what a player considers a viable option. They believe they need to get the absolute cheapest option possible to kill as much as they can, answers that also means stretching the smallest special rule advantage you might have to as many units and situations as possible.

 

Play it on the units that need it and enjoy the benefit.

[knife&fork]

 

This is a common problem in 40K social circles. There is a myth that to win 40K you need to kill your opponents as quickly and efficiently as possible and this skews what a player considers a viable option. They believe they need to get the absolute cheapest option possible to kill as much as they can, answers that also means stretching the smallest special rule advantage you might have to as many units and situations as possible.

 

Play it on the units that need it and enjoy the benefit.

 

BA can't rely on static objective sitters, devastating gunlines or drowning our enemies in bodies. Fast and effective kills is essential to winning with BA. 

 

 

All out DoA was often the best option in 5th. I probably played more than half of my games with everything starting in reserves. It meant having the majority of your stuff anywhere you like on the board turn 2 which let you maximize your mobility advantage and usually suffer a lot less fire getting where you want.  In 6th I use a similar approach with my pods and it's very effective although with the pods you actually have to be more aggressive since you don't have good mobility once touched down.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

To me the assault phase is the strongest phase. Just take a look at all the super shooty armies hiding behind Aegis Defense Lines. Dedicated melee units can and will sweep right through them. If you're afraid of Overwatch then why play one of the premiere assault armies? Seriously...

 

It's a new edition so you must redesign your army. A pure DoA army is just dumb as its an automatic loss. Still though we have access to units that can arrive the first turn and wreck havoc... I'm looking at drop pod units as the first wave followed up by your DoA units. It's all about the right synergy now.

[daveclark890]

I am seeing the need for libbies without a doubt.

 

Other than that I think my old list has a pretty good chance with 2 full assault squads, each with a chaplain and priest, starting on the table and jumping forward turn 1 and assaulting turn 2 in support of my third assault squad, honour guard and Van Vets dropping turn 2.

 

Trying to figure the best load outs for them now. I am planning to change all the PFs in the RAS to either swords or claws.

My VV are geared with Sgt (PF/shield) 2 x BP + shield and 2 x sword and BP so they can take the snap fire and then chew through MEQ and the Sgt should be able to weather a challenge

Other big problem is what the Honour Guard take. At the minute I have a company banner and 3 melta guns. As these guys are more of a support unit for the VV I may change them for flamers.

 

Any ideas guys?

 

And thanks for all the input so far.

[Xenith]

BA can't rely on static objective sitters, devastating gunlines or drowning our enemies in bodies. Fast and effective kills is essential to winning with BA. 

 

...I couldn't disagree more. I see where you are coming from: The BA have the mobility advantage, so use it. The problem is that objective sitters don't have to be static. I rely on tactical squads to outfirepower the enemy as they move toward objectives.

 

BA are a space marine army, and as such can do gunlines quite well. We just have some more interesting combat options. You'll also find that killing things quickly and efficiently is essential to win with every army.

 

All out DoA was often the best option in 5th. 

Again, I disagree. In 5th, the frequency of posts along the lines of "how do I beat xxx withy DoA" etc was alarming. People just didn't 'get' that you didn't have to 'all reserve' and it was hamstringing them. The all reserve can be fun, but it is by no means the best or only option. It's paper to the rock of the opposing list, and has very specific uses.

 

I probably played more than half of my games with everything starting in reserves. It meant having the majority of your stuff anywhere you like on the board turn 2 which let you maximize your mobility advantage and usually suffer a lot less fire getting where you want.  In 6th I use a similar approach with my pods and it's very effective although with the pods you actually have to be more aggressive since you don't have good mobility once touched down.

 

You mention how essential it is to get quick, clean kills, yet are preventing any of your dudes from getting into combat until T3 at the latest. Yes, you get an alpha strike on a tank, but then you have shot, so all your dudes are bunched up on a plasma cannon blast marker shape. With the DoA you either completely crippled the enemy T2, enough so that the massive losses you would suffer in the next turn (against any half decent opponent) would still leave you with a chance to win, or you lost.

 

I'd argue that you could get pretty much all of your stuff where you like on the board by T2 with on board deployment.

 

The pods are a good choice. I'm getting one for a tactical squad (assault squads need packs), as it's pretty much a game winner when playing the relic. Drop 10 marines on the objective T1, walk away with it, then run away, jumpers protect. Opponent instantly on the back foot.

 

6th has meant that combined arms forces are better than those relying on a single gimmick, or flooding the field with cheap rhinos etc.