Has Anything Come out of the Woodwork in the Last 2 Months?

[Prot]

I've been out of Chaos for the last 2 or so months after hitting what I felt to be a brickwall with the new codex.

 

I know it was very controversial upon release and a lot of people were hoping for more... a lot more. But that's not what I want to talk about. The reason I left the codex is I felt I was down to about 2-3 units that really work and rotating the list was very difficult as a lot of the codex felt like filler.

 

Now some serious has time has passed and I'm sure some of you have tried being competitive with the codex in tournaments. Perhaps you've found use for some units that were considered garbage?

 

When I was last really giving this codex a go I had trouble finding use for a lot of the new units, Dark Apostles, all Special Characters aside from Huron, Mutilators, Warp Talons, most specifically. A lot of old units got worse, or are simply too cost innefective: Marked, or cult troops. Possessed, etc, etc.

 

What seemed to work at the time was Huron, or cheap HQ, or HQ on bike. Bikes. Bale Flamer Helldrake(s). Terminators (w/Huron). Pred Annihilators. Oblits (?), still iffy on : Forgefiend (ecto? or Hades?)

 

Did anything change?

[Kastor Krieg]

Heldrake's even better now. The flamer / cannon is turret mounted, 360 degrees, range measured from base now. YES.

[Excessus]

Forgefiends are a bit overcosted and Huron is still good, but so are regular lords as well with a variety of gear, also lvl 3 sorcerers are nice. There is that little single MoN mutilator DSing thing as well that I haven't tried yet that could work nicely I guess, and NMs are quite a bit better nowadays. Spawns are quite nice as well, but they have always been that(in this codex). 

[Wolf Guard Dan]

I think this codex has a lot to it. Since returning to the hobby a few years ago I primarily played wolves.  Just having one viable troop choice (grey hunters) loses its fun. Chaos gives so many ways to bring troops.

 

People on the Khorne board have a lot of fun with Khârn. I cant speak of the other special characters cuz I play khorne primarily.

 

Just be happy with all the OPTIONS this codex has.  There are so many different things to bring to the table.  Even if there are stinkers. But trust me, every codex has units that are not as viable as others in their FOC (Blood Claws < Grey Hunters).

[Mr.darkness]

A lot of the competitive players are basically saying that we had arrived at a mono build for proper competitive play. Obviously everything is useable in friendly games but for competitive it is basically:

Sorcerors or lords with brand

No elites, MAYBE terminator, but not really

PMs, noise Marines, or walking squads with plasma guns

Helldrakes or bikers. Some like spawns, but helldrakes are basically taking it nowadays, with their silly awesome template of doom.

Havocs if anything

 

And all of that with an ally who brings AA, usually IG or crons.

 

A yeah, not rally a mono build, because you do have a fair few options, but still limited in that a whole lot of the units in the codex are unused.

[Kastor Krieg]

You can make a psyker-Lord now, Scrolls of Magnus make you a spellcaster now.

 

And Noise Marines got a nice boost, too, with more Blastmasters per squad (two per 10, I believe).

[Prot]

Heldrake's even better now. The flamer / cannon is turret mounted, 360 degrees, range measured from base now. YES.

 

This came out in a recent FAQ? As I last recalled the flamer was usable in many angles due to the rule with how it is measured within a certain distance but can be angled any way that you want provided it fits in the measurement.  The idea of it being 360 is kind of weird... I mean if you're going forward, that means literally the Heldrake could feasibly shoot fire out of its @#%.

 

Is this right?

 

Forgefiends are a bit overcosted and Huron is still good, but so are regular lords as well with a variety of gear, also lvl 3 sorcerers are nice. There is that little single MoN mutilator DSing thing as well that I haven't tried yet that could work nicely I guess, and NMs are quite a bit better nowadays. Spawns are quite nice as well, but they have always been that(in this codex). 

 

Huron always worked for me but regular lords I never really saw much added value in. Glad to hear some people are competing with them (not on bikes).

 

 

A lot of the competitive players are basically saying that we had arrived at a mono build for proper competitive play. Obviously everything is useable in friendly games but for competitive it is basically:

Sorcerors or lords with brand

No elites, MAYBE terminator, but not really

PMs, noise Marines, or walking squads with plasma guns

Helldrakes or bikers. Some like spawns, but helldrakes are basically taking it nowadays, with their silly awesome template of doom.

Havocs if anything

 

And all of that with an ally who brings AA, usually IG or crons.

 

A yeah, not rally a mono build, because you do have a fair few options, but still limited in that a whole lot of the units in the codex are unused.

 

Yea, that 'mono build' you refer to is extremely similar to what I recall. Not a lot changed in your list since the opening month of the codex release.... except I might be too old school but I can't use allies. lol

[Kol Saresk]

This came out in a recent FAQ? As I last recalled the flamer was usable in many angles due to the rule with how it is measured within a certain distance but can be angled any way that you want provided it fits in the measurement.  The idea of it being 360 is kind of weird... I mean if you're going forward, that means literally the Heldrake could feasibly shoot fire out of its @#%.

 

Is this right?

The Baleflamer is apparently classed as a turret-type weapon and as such, GW has made it measured from the base in a 360 degree arc.

[the jeske]

 

Not a lot changed in your list since the opening month of the codex release

why do you think it would ?

 

there are for fun options like huron , flying dp , terminators , noise marines .

 

the rest of the list gets carried by drakes[unless it runs in to a list which does AA very good or has more flyers] . bikes are ok , biker lords are ok , oblits [mon] are ok, ac havocks are ok [but they are no long fangs] .

 

a no drake list while technicly possible[2 hqs 2 biker units] doesnt realy cut it even against friendly necron/ig-sw/gk builds .

 

there are two things bad with the dex [rest could be blamed on personal taste or not liking happy chaos family] . it does not work well under 2k [same problem nids have] and the builds we get out of the codex have identical game play . having csm instead of pms is not enough "change" .

 

Which is funny because just by taking a single pice of gear a DA[also a new edition dex] can play 2 versions of green wing , with a distinctly different way of playing [ally+minimax vs green tide].

[Nehekhare]

5NM+blastmaster are nice, but the slaanesh lord is just useless. then again: what lord besides huron/typhus/khorne+axe+jugger isn't? at 125pts they may work even as elites though.

[Lepaca]

5NM+blastmaster are nice, but the slaanesh lord is just useless. then again: what lord besides huron/typhus/khorne+axe+jugger isn't? at 125pts they may work even as elites though.

 

Actually I think tha a MoS lord w/ bike, brand and an e-claw is reasonably good.

[Nehekhare]

MoS lord w/ bike, brand and an e-claw

if you do that, be sure to exchange the bike's TL bolter for the BBoS and give him a second claw or a fist and 4++.

 

but is he worth it? he is just as much as another heldrake (which is more resilient, better at range and even better at melee LOL)!

 

it is just sad that only khorne lords and DPs get daemon weapons :(

[Lepaca]

MoS lord w/ bike, brand and an e-claw

if you do that, be sure to exchange the bike's TL bolter for the BBoS and give him a second claw or a fist and 4++.

but is he worth it? he is just as much as another heldrake (which is more resilient, better at range and even better at melee LOL)!

it is just sad that only khorne lords and DPs get daemon weapons

I'm pretty sure you can't switch out the bike's weapons for HQs. But even if could do that I propaply wouldn't as I want to keep this guy as cheap as possible. I feel that one LC is an acceptable investment as it allows him to realiably engage things like tacticals and come out on top.

This guy is not a focused melee character (as the only good melee focused character we have is the MoK/axe lord anyway), he is meant as a support character hanging back, firing the Brand and mainly unlocking NMs as troops.

Yes he is almost as expensive as a drake and not as good (although I'd disagree about being better at melee as the lord can sweep units) but the fact of the matter is that you NEED an HQ and you if you want NMs you need to have a MoS lord. And this is a MoS build that is IMO decent enough to actually play.

I'm actually very disappointed that are so few reviews of the codex so far. Seems like it is being deemed uninteressting by the community.

[Nehekhare]

oh there are lots of reviews out there:

 

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2013/01/31/tactics-chaos-lord-review/

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/chaos-space-marine-week/

 

as for the bike weapon: debatable, but since it says "replace one weapon" for the BBoS and the bike "is fitted with a single twin-linked boltgun" (like Terminator armor btw, in which case you propably wouldn't argue), which undoubtedly IS a weapon...

 

Lords really present a conundrum. needed to unlock troops, not good on their own (exept khorne, but then berzerkers suck). Needed to make troops fearless but allow fearless cults for troops. Get treads from winning challenges, but lack the tools to survive them. Don't do much damage exept on first turn (votlw, MoK) or with a daemon weapon, but then the damage is wasted in challenge overkill. 

[Prot]

 

Not a lot changed in your list since the opening month of the codex release

why do you think it would ?

 

Well you've been around long enough now to see that sometimes there are burried treasures; a unit that doesn't seem viable or a strategy that wasn't apparent at codex release. This -does- happen a fair amount. I'm willing to admit I was turned off so much in the beginning that I didn't do my normal exhaustive experimentation with this codex. 

 

The only item I didn't try that no one was looking at in the beginning, but I had a suspicion about was Spawns. But otherwise, I'm asking this because it does happen from time to time.

 

 

 

Not a lot changed in your list since the opening month of the codex release

 

there are for fun options like huron , flying dp , terminators , noise marines .

 

the rest of the list gets carried by drakes[unless it runs in to a list which does AA very good or has more flyers] . bikes are ok , biker lords are ok , oblits [mon] are ok, ac havocks are ok [but they are no long fangs] .

 

a no drake list while technicly possible[2 hqs 2 biker units] doesnt realy cut it even against friendly necron/ig-sw/gk builds .

 

there are two things bad with the dex [rest could be blamed on personal taste or not liking happy chaos family] . it does not work well under 2k [same problem nids have] and the builds we get out of the codex have identical game play . having csm instead of pms is not enough "change" .

 

Which is funny because just by taking a single pice of gear a DA[also a new edition dex] can play 2 versions of green wing , with a distinctly different way of playing [ally+minimax vs green tide].

 

I personally don't like hinging too much on drake lists.... recently playing against Winged Hive Tyrants (for the first time in 6th) I've been blown away how easily those chew through flyers. I am thinking of dumping them all together (I've never played without at least one). And seeing what else I can come up with.

 

But I agree at 1500 pts my Chaos lists seem extremely inflexible. Worse than my Necron lists (which can be accused of being very static).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm actually very disappointed that are so few reviews of the codex so far. Seems like it is being deemed uninteressting by the community.

 

 

Your Daemon Prince example is pretty much what I'm talking about. Only having one or two valid choices per category in such a new codex is pretty brutal.

 

I don't know how long you've been playing chaos but your comment on uninteresting is pretty bang on (in a competitive environment - in a 'funsy' environment you can play whatever you want).  A lot of us waited years, and years to get this codex.

 

I probably lasted 2 months. I hate to admit it but I went back to 'crons. Or my Blood Pact IG (you can see them in the IG section.) I don't even play heavy Cron-air. But I feel I have more variety, with potency. I sold some of my painted Wolves in anticipation of this codex and I'm really kicking myself.

 

Still, my background is chaos.... many years ago. So I still try to tell myself I could make stuff that -no one- is using work. I might be delusional about it though.

[Sception]

Changes, mostly covered already:

 

Drake is turret now, much better, and was already the best thing.

 

NMs get 1/5 blastermasters.  Min squads with BMs are somewhat decent.

 

Scrolls now makes user a psycher, giving them at least some purpose, even if they're still way overpriced.

 

Abaddon: can join marked squads now (not a surprise, everyone knew how it was supposed to be)

 

 

Changes in perception, if not actual rule changes:

 

single man MoN mutilator squads are actually ok as deep striking distraction units.

 

Khorn bike/axe lord is overshadowed by nurgle lord (typically bike & brand) because in the end Plague Marines are still just that much better than your other options for troop slots.

 

 

 

Chaos lists without allies still boils down to something of a mono list:

 

Nurgle Lord, bike & brand

 

MSU plagues with pair plasma

 

2 baledrakes, 1 bike squad

 

2/1 or 1/2 of nurgle oblits and havocs, usually autohavocs but lashavocs work, too

 

ADL with quad or icarus

 

 

leftover points to be spent on:

 

lv 3 unmarked telepathy sorcerer

MSU nurgle mutilators

small cultist squads in reserve, to move onto the field and camp objectives

 

 

On the other hand, this narrow view of the book isn't exactly fair.  On the one hand, there are allies, and allies can shake up what you field considerably.  Laspredators are good, and suffer only from the lack of available armor saturation in the CSM book.  If you're working with guard you can have enough armor saturation to make it worth fielding them.  Daemons can change things for you as well.

 

 

And there are plenty of choices in the CSM book that, while perhaps not "best" or "most efficient" are still plenty good enough to see play, including:

 

several of the special characters (Huron mostly, but also Ahriman, Khârn, Typhus, Abaddon)

 

Prince with mace/wings/armor just does absurd things in melee if you can get him stuck in

 

Slaaneshi steed lords (to outflank something nasty)

 

Khornate axe lord on bike or jugger is still just brutal, even if plague marines keep him out of the default list

 

Warpsmith has a decent selection of default gear and abilities for his asking price, and does a lot in a backfield position - keeping troops he joins in check with hi Ld10, repairing vehicles bunkered behind an Aegis, manning an icarus with his Bs5, and counterattacking anything that approaches his position with melta, flamer, and a mess of AP2 axe attacks.  He can also work well in a midfield infantry position, especially if you give him a burning brand and include a walker or two to support his unit's advance.

 

Noise Marines, anti-infantry with sonic blasters, MSU with a blastermaster, or as a fearless CSM squad with an AP3 flamer

 

CSMs with plasma

 

Rhinos, either as cheap boxes or with havoc launcher

 

Combi Plas terminators

 

Raptors - yeah, bikes are just better, but Raptors aren't bad, and they look cooler and cost less money

 

Spawn: very effective for the points, crowded out of the default list only by how awesome bikes & drakes are

 

Dakkafiends can put out a very respectable amount of fire for their cost

 

Vindicators / ectofiends, if primarily as area denial

 

Defilers haven't done poorly for me either, I find the extra hull point counts for a lot, and the range can be quite helpful if you get stuck on short edge deployment

 

 

So while there is something of a default list in single codex, single force org, 1500 to 2000 point tournament situations, there's actually rather a lot more functional variety in the book than that in more casual situations, or if allies are available for use.  The main struggle is with points.  Most units in the codex feel at least somewhat overpriced (the units on the default list being the key exceptions, hence their place on that list).  In competitive situations, there are things that just feel like they're required.  A pair of drakes, some troops, an HQ (likely dictated by your troop selection), some long range support, and in 1k to 1.5k games, once you've taken those things you're just done, there's no points left for anything else, especially if you're not just taking the most efficient default choices for those slots.

 

 

So...  in the end I think the situation is better than it might look.  But not by all that much.

[the jeske]

 

Well you've been around long enough now to see that sometimes there are burried treasures;

since 3ed ed army building worked like this. good people sit down , with  leaked dex . test stuff. If a codex has 2 builds it is crowed as awesome. the only time when stuff does change it is due to reprints[old style SW dex was getting better with every new sm dex] or faqs[ss+cyclon faq for old DAs for example]. there are no hidden gems or stuff that may have been overlooked . there is too many people playing the game for us[where us=gaming community] to miss something . Which is sad for the chaos dex users in the future. Imagine this , your going to be playing the same list in 4 years. Now I know that this aint a problem for GW , because people playing for X years aint their focus group . But this is going to end the same way gav dex did , it will not age well , unless GW will keep FAQing units to be different . If soul fire stacked 1ksons could actualy be made viable for example, not good , but not bad like they are right now .

 

 

 

 

I personally don't like hinging too much on drake lists.... recently

playing against Winged Hive Tyrants (for the first time in 6th) I've

been blown away how easily those chew through flyers. I am thinking of

dumping them all together (I've never played without at least one). And

seeing what else I can come up with.

well some people are playing RLx2 acx2 havocks for flakk just as meta against nids and demons . but its more a 2k points thing imo. As flyers go well the drake is a good unit , it has nice rules , but an anti flyer it aint . untile necron or IG[and IG means more or less everything that is imperial] gets stomped in to the ground with FAQs/errate the drake will be the same it is right now . Good units against non SW meq armies that happen to be footslogging.

[Trevak Dal]

 

I'm actually very disappointed that are so few reviews of the codex so far. Seems like it is being deemed uninteressting by the community.

 

 

Because basically its what the Gavdex should have been, and the loyalist books are coming out now that GW has done their token quarter assed update. It's a White Dwarf update that they charged 50 bucks for.

[Prot]

/big sigh.

 

Well I don't know if I should continue. I've done a lot of internal debate. I certainly don't want to discuss Gavdex. We've beat the bejesus out of that dead horse for years, and years.

 

As I hinted at earlier, I predominantly played chaos for... I guess it's over 10 years now? Yeesh.  I've  side tracked to other projects for the sake of variety... some of my faves have been the Necrons, Black Templars (surprised how much I liked these guys), and Wolves. BUT in the back of my mind I was always coming back to these guys. I always read every book, every nugget of rumour about this codex I could find.

 

I mentioned the break I took. Necrons are a fine army but the overall style can leave me a bit underwhelmed at times. I still guess I miss the old (Pete Haines) days... not for the abuse, but for the build factor, and variety (functional variety)!

 

When I was really into Chaos I remember we had GW come down here to my city with a camera crew and some dudes from head office (in Canada). We had this tremendous 'mega-battle' before there was such a formal invention. I was the 'general' of the forces of Chaos. I lead with my (at the time) 6,000 ish points of Iron Warriors. (I still have a lot of those guys). We had about 8-10 great Chaos players who were always a threat to win 'Best General', 'Best Painted' and/or 'Best Overall' in any tournament.  We won that Mega battle and I can't even remember how big that battle was but it covered a big floor map.

 

Now out of all those guys, I'm the only one who still owns a Chaos army. Not only did they move on but I only know of one person who picked up Chaos, and he just dumped them for a tournament he's going to (or so I'm told).

 

So maybe it's my turn to dump it for good.... perhaps sell it off. I've made and sold, or kept: Iron Warriors (big army), Black Legion (sold), World Eaters (still have), Death Guard (sold), Emp's Children (sold),  and a bunch of Chaos half arsed projects that never made it quite to 1500pts.... mostly Huron and Red Corsairs. I just couldn't buy into the piratey theme of Gavdex, but in this edition he seemed funner, more potent and his fluff rounded out in those years, but I fizzled on this codex.

 

Sorry for the long post- I guess at this point it's become nearly a 'blog entry' but I guess I'm trying to push myself to 're-invent' my Chaos projects, or just move on.  I have a tremendous amount of stuff still in my 'Closet of Shame' but it's been rather unfocused since I have been feeling let down by the codex. It's probably just me, or perhaps I had an unrealistic expectation.

[Brother Nihm]

I hear you.

 

I am the (very) last of the old guard in my gaming circles (out of a group of 50-odd hardcore Chaos players) and yesterday I decided to shelve my armies.

While the Codex is a huge upgrade over the old (but what isn't?), it still falls flat and it is just not fun for me to play anymore. 15+ years invested in a faction I thought that I'd never stop loving. Sucks donkeyballs to be honest. :)

 

On the bright side - at least GW will have another chance at fixing the momumental frak-up that is the GavDex Mk I and II, In some 3-6 years time.

 

 

 

C'est la vie, time to find fun elsewhere. 

[Nehekhare]

this breaks my heart guys. I just realized this year it's 15 years of chaos for me and I am very much dancing on that same edge...

[Prot]

I hear you.

I am the (very) last of the old guard in my gaming circles (out of a group of 50-odd hardcore Chaos players) and yesterday I decided to shelve my armies.

While the Codex is a huge upgrade over the old (but what isn't?), it still falls flat and it is just not fun for me to play anymore. 15+ years invested in a faction I thought that I'd never stop loving. Sucks donkeyballs to be honest.

On the bright side - at least GW will have another chance at fixing the momumental frak-up that is the GavDex Mk I and II, In some 3-6 years time.

C'est la vie, time to find fun elsewhere.

Nihm, this is really bad news to me. From time to time I've heard play with the idea of hanging up Chaos. I remember trying very hard to talk you out of it just before your promotion.... I guess I consider you part of the old guard as far as the 'interwebs' are concerned. I fondly remember those days waaaay back when a handful of us went back and forth what seemed like endless build ideas. People come and go, from the hobby in general, and this forum specifically but there are a few of us still left from back then. I really think it would suck if you hung it up, but I feel similar to you.... I just can't do it though. I threaten it, I move on to new armies/projects, but I've always come back. I kind of felt you were the same.

Are you saying -all- of your 40K friends quit? Or just your Chaos mates?

Regardless, I guess I'm stuck in those 'golden years'... I'm a modern day Abaddon... I don't seem to grasp that my day is done. lol

I think at the back of my mind I held out for years, like the rest of us..... but I watched good, old school Chaos guys fall by the wayside (changing armies or dropping from hobby in frustration)... guys like Refuse, man I can't even remember all the names anymore. But I still waited for Gavdex to go away... then this came out. And for a moment I felt the ol' fires burning.... then I put the codex to the acid test (everyone has FotM players in their area that play every tournament).

Then I started to think, okay, this is just a tease, we obviously have a Legions codex coming out....

So here we are.

Are you going to try a new army...? Are you going to give up the hobby? Either way your response kind of caught me off guard. I knew you were strongly dissatisfied, but I didn't think you'd drop it entirely.

this breaks my heart guys. I just realized this year it's 15 years of chaos for me and I am very much dancing on that same edge...

I dunno. I don't feel to 'old' for this stuff. I feel the hobby is for anyone really, from gamers, to collectors, to artists, to competitively driven players. But I feel 'old' hanging on to an idea of Chaos that just really doesn't exist anymore.

The problem for me is I switch to a non-Power Armored army and I lose interest in 3 months! That gets pretty expensive... and fatiguing. I miss Wolves, I miss my old Black Templars (wish I hadn't have sold them... TWICE!), I might just be done with Chaos though. I play tested everything that looked good. But so many 'blah' new units, and a lot of other details I won't get into just have me thinking that I should move to a new Power Armour project or just give it up entirely. Unlike Nihm, I have never been able to formally say, 'I'm done with Chaos. I'm hanging it up.'

[Iron_Within]

This is the most depressing part of being a chaos player, I've been one since 2nd edition codex, going on 17 years. It just sucks massively that this is what it's reduced to. As an Iron Warrior player the absolute uselessness of many options (to the point where other players say "why on earth are you using regular Marines when Plague Marines are such a superior choice"), this just gets you down that any kind of variety is stripped out. A collectors army it once was, a mono build army it shall be so sayeth GThorpe.

[the jeske]

 

Nihm, this is really bad news to me. From time to time I've heard play with the idea of hanging up Chaos. I remember trying very hard to talk you out of it just before your promotion.... I guess I consider you part of the old guard as far as the 'interwebs' are concerned. I fondly remember those days waaaay back when a handful of us went back and forth what seemed like endless build ideas.  People come and go, from the hobby in general, and this forum specifically but there are a few of us still left from back then. I really think it would suck if you hung it up, but I feel similar to you.... I just can't do it though. I threaten it, I move on to new armies/projects, but I've always come back.  I kind of felt you were the same.

yes those years ago when every day was , guys am trying out build X what do you think and the anwser was never switch to IW gunline/BL khorn . man those were the days. And suddenly gav came and we lost Refuse . I think in the end he was right . Quiting probably would have made 5th better for me[being nid player too wasnt helping with "liking" 5th either] .

 

for me chaos is not fun to play anymore . I did a whole editition of not fun to play  and I dont want another one . Changed codex [not the models] and  behold one week am playing drop pods , other week foot slogger , third I use only some SW in a main IG list and it is great. the options , the tactical possibilities and most important different game play is what makes SW/IG a realy great dex. Those are old dex , but they age wonderfuly . I doubt the same is going to happen to chaos . All it takes is a flyer nerf in 7th or IG/marines getting realy good anti aircraft[probably something that gets aa as a bonus and not something you buy to get AA]. And then what is chaos without helldrakes ? a clone SW biker list ?

[Comrade87]

The new dex has brought alot of people in my area into playing a chaos army. I myself am a 15 year IG player and recentlly just switched over to Chaos because of cultists. I've personally found the following useful:

 

HQ:

Lord- Standard, power ax, make warlord, run with cultists

made into lord because you really don't want the man charging with the murder sword to be you warlord do you?

 

Lord #2- Standard, Murder Sword, run with other large group of cultists, watch opponent hide a really expensive HQ just so you don't kill him (Choose enemy warlord, because it scare opfor more for the extra VP points)

 

Elites:

 

Terminators: 3-5 men. Axes, combi meltas, Deep strike. Really good distraction, and deadly

as long as you don't deepstrike them near things like 15 Bezerkers, 30 man combined IG platoons, you should be staying for a turn or two. you should break the enemy precous things with these men.

Troops:

 

CSM: Large units of 15 to 20, give plasma guns, march down the center. Wreck face.

Enemy appears to believe these are the main part of your army. Let him, give no upgrades except maybe VotLW, or the IoV. These men will abosrb alot of firepower, cause alot of damage and maybe cause the enemy to igonore the 70+ fearless cultists w/ predator tanks coming up the flanks.

 

Cultists: large groups 25-35, place on flanks give autoguns, support provided by Predator tanks. Make fearless with cheap lords from above.

I've been reading of using 50point squads to just sit on an objective....... personally I think thats a waste of 50 points. and 50 points can be spent on alot of things, like another 12 cultists, 3 plasma guns, some awesome crap for a lord, 10 warpflame gargoyle upgrades.

 

Fast:

 

No Reviews.

 

Heavy:

 

Predators- Auto Cannon, Lascannon Sponsons, Havok Launcher (and maybe some warpflame gargoyles) = excellent support vehicle.

I really don't undertand the dislike for it, it can rack up as many kills as a LRMBT, and is cheaper.