Has Anything Come out of the Woodwork in the Last 2 Months?

[hornywingythingy]

Yup, been playing csm since 98, and I'm really tired of this book now, dug my nids out, and loving how they play in 6th, but can't get the motivation to do anything with csm. Its a damn shame, I want to love them, but they aren't fun. Win or lose I always have a fun game with my nids (which is weird, as they were an exercise with frustration in 5th)

[Seahawk]

Everyone lies. The stuff that's "crap" is strong and fluffy. They just need to try harder instead of looking for easy-button wins. ;)

[Nehekhare]

Everyone lies.

;)

[the jeske]

Everyone lies. The stuff that's "crap" is strong and fluffy. They just need to try harder instead of looking for easy-button wins.

there is two things I dont like . when people insult my family and when they call me a liar . But considering your a mod and am not.

teach me then . show me a viable 1500-199 lists[mainland euro zone]. show me how to do it harder without easy-button wins.

Or is this just talk ?

[Seahawk]

First, take it easy. It would have been more offensive had I said certain people speak without ever taking their head out of the sand, rather than laying out the uninsulting, omni-directional wordplay that I did. Nehekhare got it.

Example:

2k

Typhus

Warp Smith - Mark of Nurgle

28 Zombies

35 Zombies

35 Zombies

20 Cultists - Mark of Nurgle, autoguns, heavy stubbers

20 Cultists - Mark of Nurgle, flamers

7 Plague Marines - 2 meltaguns, combi-melta, power fist

7 Havocs - 2 autocannons, 2 flakk launchers

3 Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle

Epidemius

6 Nurglings

Aegis Defense Line - Lascannon

Fluffy (nearly every unit is Sacred 7 ((when Epidemius joins nurglings ))), good for objectives games which are the majority (145 scoring bodies, plus 10 more if you play Big Guns), good for KP/VP games (only give up 12), units are durable (either through numbers or through abilities), units are destructive (especially after the tally goes up), can deal with flyers (flakk and Icarus + others in a pinch), etc.

The units also provide area denial for deep strikers/infiltrators/outflankers, which is expressly helpful in objective games. It would have a somewhat tough time against IG armored company, but how much does one ever see that anymore? It wouldn't care if they had 9 vendettas though; oh no, 27 zombies die a turn. Max. God help them if they have a horde army. Watching cultists rip two dreadknights to shreds is a beautiful thing.

An army made up of what the internet calls mostly crap units that defeated a relatively experienced Grey Knight army the other day in The Emperor's Will. Only my first run at it, but with more experience and changes I'm sure it'll get even better.

[v3rt1go]

Omg, guys you depress me. Why so much complain about the new chaos dex. Imo Kelly did a decent enough job for both sides of the coin (fluffy and competitive players). 

 

Regarding fluff the new chaos dex has a ton more flavor than the previous one, and the options, artefacts and cult troops that you can field really make you feel like you are playing a themed army.

Second, regarding the competitive lists, we've got options there also, more than enough if you ask me.

You are looking for an easy I win button: Just ally with daemons fill in you FA slot with Baledrakes, get a cheap HQ and spam troops for the rest of the points.

A list like this might do you just fine:

 

HQ Lord Nurgle Bike, 5++ BboS  145

Troop1 11x Cultists  54
Troop2 10x Cultists  50
Troop3 10x Cultists  50

FA1 Helldrake Baleflamer  170
FA2 Helldrake Baleflamer  170
FA3 3x Spawn Nurgle  108

HS1 2x Oblits MoN  152
HS2 2x Oblits MoN  152
HS3 2x Oblits MoN  152

Fort ADL Comm Relay  70

 

HQ A Heral of Tzeentch Disc  65

Troop 1 A 5x Plague Bearers  75
Troop 2 A 5x Plague Bearers  75

Elite A 7x Flamers  161

FA A 8x Screamers  200

 

You want variants of it, but still have be an I Win Button, add a dash of Slaanesh with Noise Marines

 

chaos lord mark of slaneesh
herald de tzeench with disc
3 hell drakes
8 flamers
8 screamers
6 plaguebearers
comms relay with aegis

1x 11 cultists

4x 5 man NMs with blast master / or sirens / or sonics (depends on what you're using them against) in rhinos

 

Fearing that flames and screamers will get nerfed in March - they will :) - now get over it and try allying with IG nad enjoy the decent AA and ppl not calling you a cheese abuser for a change: 

 

HQ Lord of Slaanesh Burning Brand 5++  125

Troop1 7x Noise marines 5x Sonic Blaster 1x Blast master, 1x Doom siren  190
Troop2 7x Noise marines 6x Sonic Blaster 1x Blast master, 1x Doom siren  193
Troop3 7x Noise marines 6x Sonic Blaster 1x Blast master, 1x Doom siren  193

Transp 3x Rhino  105

 

 

FA1 Helldrake Baleflamer  170
FA2 Helldrake Baleflamer  170

 

HS1 2x Oblits MoN  152
HS2 2x Oblits MoN  152

 

Fort ADL Quad Gun  100

 

HQ A Command Squad Astropath  80

A troop 1 10x Vets 3x PG  115
A troop 2 10x Vets 3x PG  115

FA1 1x HB Vendetta  140

 

This are all competitive lists that fair great on the field. I'm owning a lot of local tourneys with these lists and I intend to take one of this at ETC this year. Oh and btw, except the IG one the 2 daemon lists above are at 1850p, so it's doable even below 2000p.

 

Most other codices have a couple of lists that are deemed competitve, all with different variants, like the above ones so I fail to see where chaos is failing. I agree that competitive is decided by the local meta that you play in, but at least on my side things look pretty sweat for chaos.

 

Like most other codices, we have some units that are a complete must field, and others that will probably never see the board (baledrakes vs talons) I don't see crons or SW with more than 2,3 variants of competitive lists that mainly focus around the same units.

 

What you guys don't seem to grasp imo is that Chaos is a 6th edition codex - first of it's kind - and is build with allies in mind. While Crons and SW/IG can do it alone we chaos have to take allies, and that's great because the codex will never get old and outdated like Gavdex as long as new allies codices and combos will show up.

 

I've also managed to get my hands on the new DA codex, and let me tell you my opinion of it, compared to Chaos it may seem stronger at a first glance, but when you actually start making a list you realize all the compromises you have to make in order to get you combo to work, plus it has no direct synergy with allies and is also a lot more straight forward and boring to play.

 

I'm glad I decided to stay with chaos, I really enjoy the new codex - both competitive and for fun - and besides the cron flying croissant spam I have no issue with any other opponent I've faced.

[Vesper]

I hear you.

I am the (very) last of the old guard in my gaming circles (out of a group of 50-odd hardcore Chaos players) and yesterday I decided to shelve my armies.

While the Codex is a huge upgrade over the old (but what isn't?), it still falls flat and it is just not fun for me to play anymore. 15+ years invested in a faction I thought that I'd never stop loving. Sucks donkeyballs to be honest.

On the bright side - at least GW will have another chance at fixing the momumental frak-up that is the GavDex Mk I and II, In some 3-6 years time.

C'est la vie, time to find fun elsewhere.

Got around 10 years of 40k behind me, with a sizeable break during half of the gavdex's life.

Chaos was awesome. And 3.5 was just godsent. But even aside the state of our army, I feel that the hobby became pretty bad. Back in the days, we had a good White Dwarf, and awesome dev team, really cool worldwide campaigns (EoT, Medusa V), the prices were fine... I am under the impression we lost everything that made the hobby fun for me. The demise of the army I collected for ten years sure doesn't help, even more so when it's motivated by a "Loyalists must have everything, and screw the others" policy, which led to a catastrophic 5th edition...

I'm just under the impression that there is nothing left of what made me start 40k.

[Brother Ambroz]

There's alot of talk about "I win buttons" but really if you take one of the supposed "I win" lists in a tournament, all you're going to do is face other lists that are designed in the same fashion. If you take one of these lists against a fluff list, then yes you will likely win hands down. People want good, and I say good instead of "I win buttons" because they want to be able to stand their own against these other tournament lists.

Additionally both the lists above I would consider tournament lists.

[Nehekhare]

 

What you guys don't seem to grasp imo is that Chaos is a 6th edition codex - first of it's kind - and is build with allies in mind. While Crons and SW/IG can do it alone we chaos have to take allies, [...] DA codex, [...]has no direct synergy with allies

apart from the fact that notions like "built with xyz in mind", if not invalidated from the start by assuming you would know what any of the designers had in mind, reek of a sorry excuse for being crap since people used that phrase to defend tyranids in 5th...what exactly do chaos marines have to offer when azrael in a blob or libbys with powerfield & CS with banner of devastation in LR crusaders do not count as "synergy"? You do realize that CSM have one single battle brother, and that does not even allow joining ICs?

[Iron_Within]

Make a competitive and fluffy Tzeentch list.... this is my challenge to you. I want to be evil and say "without daemon spam" but this is up to you.

[chillin]

I have been playing chaos since the end of 2ed-very begaining of 3rd. I too have been out for a few years b/c of gavdex. So when I heard new dex was out I rushed out and bought it. It is better then gavdex (really how could it not be??) , but I will have to say, it's not all I hoped. One thing I REALLY wanted was legion rules, and you would think that since that was one of the big gripes w gavdex they would have made some. I've ask a couple of times about ideas for army building with new dex, and I basicly get "buy hell drakes" . I made up a few armys...nothing I'm too excited about. Keeping an open mind tho, till I get some games under my belt.

To v3rt1go (not a personal attack mate ) and anyone else that sz "chaos needs to take allies", well if chaos needs to take allies, then it is not a good dex. I dont want to play csm's w allies, I want to play csm's.

[Beachymike123]

i have already given my opinions on the new dex in a previous thread, to me its just a souped up version of the gav dex. so i looked at something differently - if GWs policy is to give the loyalist PA armies everything and screw the rest (which i don't think is entirely accurate with dark eldar btw ;) ) then use this against them. my iron warriors don't run anything from the csm dex, its all made from IA10's space marine siege vanguard list. a list dedicated to siege specialists? a legion renowned for its siege mastery? doesn't take a genius. in addition, their allies (in true chaos fashion) are made up from the tyrant's legion (a wondering fallen angel techmarine, who uses armenneus valthex's rules, an apothecary who sells his services by his side, corpsetaker rules, and their underlings who mostly consist of grunts from the scum of the galaxy, ie the rest of the tyrant's list (joke)). since switching to these lists, i've found i've had much better results in the gaming, modelling and fluffy aspects of the hobby. even my regular opponent says its much more of a challenge for him as he no longer has to face a list where the weak and the strong have such a clear divide. 

at the end of the day, to me, the hobby is what you make it. sometimes GW get it spot on (a certain codex featuring pain inflicting, space raiding elves who are their own worst enemy) and sometimes they get it bad (gavdex). 

[chillin]

There's alot of talk about "I win buttons" but really if you take one of the supposed "I win" lists in a tournament, all you're going to do is face other lists that are designed in the same fashion. If you take one of these lists against a fluff list, then yes you will likely win hands down. People want good, and I say good instead of "I win buttons" because they want to be able to stand their own against these other tournament lists.

Additionally both the lists above I would consider tournament lists.

also of the above lists; the 1st army has one (yes 1) whole csm in it ! How is that even a csm army ?? The others have more but are still over 1/2 allies , again I dont consider that a csm army. Also in all the above lists, the hell drake is central.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Must admit, there are times when I've thought of switching, or giving up, my heresy era Salamanders are coming along, my eldar are in a state of limbo, but infinity and other gw sytems are coming along fine and due to the small model count I already have everything done............... As a Thousand son player, this codex was worse just for the fact ti was able to nerf them again, the planet of the sorcerers has become a tomb, even more so compared to before.

[Slayer le Boucher]

I'm gonna sound rude, an i apologies before for this but, Screw all this.

 

Chaos is awesome!, Chaos is a never ending Nightmare of a punk on acids in the creativity realm.

 

Its been 15years that i play Chaos, and every single time that i sayt to myself" okay i'm gonna make another army for changes/better winning rate/not looking liek a fool with an old army/...

 

And when i buy 1k pts worth of models of this new army, you know what i do ?, i convert and corrupt all of it to Chaos.

 

there is nothing more exciting, rejuveniating and Manly, to corrupt every single thing that you touch.

 

Stronger armies?, Bah let them have this crazy dream about being stronger or better, Chaos always comes around to get you in the blind spot, when you least expect it.

 

Being a Chaos player, is all about being a true villain, even if you are defeated, its only a minor setback, because you will always come back, and for this its worht every penny to train your maniacle laughter of Doom!, especially if you have a moustach or a goatee!

 

Let Sm, Tau and Eldars cry and whine, we Chaos are better then this, we are lurking in the shadows, lingering in hte Darkness, waiting for a weakness to be uncovered, and when we see it WE STRIKE!!

 

You find it hard?, find new creative ways to do things, after all destroying and death dealing doesn't come in only one shape.

 

No matter what the punishment we take, we will always rise again and try, and try, and try, and try, until they fall into oblivion, with the Horror and terror in their eyes, has we have rendered their dreams of foolish Glory to smitherens with their "competitive lists" and "deathstar things".

 

What Chaos is, is not only to win, its to crush their dreams and hopes of getting victorious without a scratch or a broken nail!

 

Yes even after 15years i still believe Chaos is the most awesome army, might call me a fool or crazy, but a rather be a crazy lunatic, then a stupid, cheap with no value bandwagoneer, who has a fickle heart and feeble mind.

 

Chaos is Eternal, its everywhere, its never ending!

 

All Hail the Dark Glory of the Gods, All Hail Chaos!!!

 

 

*Runs away, before the nurse catch him...*

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm deep into the experimental stage at this point, and while I seethe internally every game where I wish I had something from 3.5 to throw at the smarmy Ward-Codex players I keep having to face, I have been getting some pretty good use out of several things I never suspected. We're definitely not in for any return to the glory days of yore, but as long as I keep getting surprising results out of things I'm not hanging up the Black. I fight the Long War, and if it takes suffering through this edition as I suffered in the last, so be it. I'm winning about half my friendly games, and I'm accustomed from the last edition to losing at tournaments anyway.

[Seahawk]

There's alot of talk about "I win buttons" but really if you take one of the supposed "I win" lists in a tournament, all you're going to do is face other lists that are designed in the same fashion. If you take one of these lists against a fluff list, then yes you will likely win hands down. People want good, and I say good instead of "I win buttons" because they want to be able to stand their own against these other tournament lists.

Additionally both the lists above I would consider tournament lists.

also of the above lists; the 1st army has one (yes 1) whole csm in it ! How is that even a csm army ?? The others have more but are still over 1/2 allies , again I dont consider that a csm army. Also in all the above lists, the hell drake is central.

People must keep missing my list, of which exactly 7 out of 162 models are allies. ;)

[hornywingythingy]

V3rtigo, why do you have a comms relay in that nurgle list? Allies Don't benefit from things that modify reserves rolls. (also, as worded in the errata, they aren't affected by negatives either, which is just plain weird...)

 

@ all the guys having a go about those of us not enjoying the new csm dex, give it a break, we aren't telling you to stop enjoying playing it, its just to us, or at least me, I Don't enjoy using the army. If you do, more power to you, and its not that I want an I win button, if it was that, I wouldn't have sold my crons, its that I Don't like how the list plays, and I Don't have fun playing it, that is, after all, the point of this hobby, to have fun. Its why I have gone back to my nids, cos they work in 6th, and what's more, they are fun to play. I love the fact my dakkaflyrants now work, and feel boss, and I love the way the battles flow now.

[Brother Nihm]

Are you saying -all- of your 40K friends quit? Or just your Chaos mates?

All the Chaos players I know, gone from the hobby. All my friends have also left 40K (and Fantasy) behind, mostly in favour of other systems with tighter/better rulesets (but to me, not very interesting game-settings, which is the main reason why I have stayed)

Are you going to try a new army...? Are you going to give up the hobby? Either way your response kind of caught me off guard. I knew you were strongly dissatisfied, but I didn't think you'd drop it entirely.

I've held on since 2007, seeing the (Chaos) player count on the B&C and locally dwindle month by month. The GavDex is an abomination that should never have been. End of. I would dare and say that anyone who believes otherwise never played fluffy or competitive lists (are there any other lists besides those?) during that time.

My current issues have nothing to do with I-Win lists (none of us who express these feelings have even mentioned it), but it has everything to do with fun.

Games are supposed to be fun, and right now, they're not.

Enough rambling,

I am not going to try a new army, I've been looking for good buyers to take all my other armies off my hands, while the boys in blue will remain in storage. Unless I receive an offer I cannot refuse. (almost did last week but he decided he wanted to play Nurgle instead)

I am not giving up on the hobby, I do love the universe very much and I will keep reading novels for example.

The reasons for dropping the gaming side of the hobby are many and most of them have been mentioned in this thread by others already. A few things stand out though,

Omg, guys you depress me. Why so much complain about the new chaos dex. Imo Kelly did a decent enough job for both sides of the coin (fluffy and competitive players).

He obviously did not.

Regarding fluff the new chaos dex has a ton more flavor than the previous one, and the options, artefacts and cult troops that you can field really make you feel like you are playing a themed army.

Have you been playing TSons lately?

You are looking for an easy I win button: Just ally with daemons fill in you FA slot with Baledrakes, get a cheap HQ and spam troops for the rest of the points.

Nope, but you perfectly demonstrate one of the flaws of the book.

What you guys don't seem to grasp imo is that Chaos is a 6th edition codex - first of it's kind - and is build with allies in mind.

I grasp it just fine thanks! That it is built with allies in mind only makes it worse in my mind. (see below)

While Crons and SW/IG can do it alone we chaos have to take allies,

I want to play Chaos Space Marines, not Chaos Space Marines - and their super happy friends.

and that's great because the codex will never get old and outdated like Gavdex as long as new allies codices and combos will show up.

Until one such book is on the other end of the ally spectrum and happens to have anti-flyer capabilities and/or hero+SM-killing Characters?

That book is already out.

I'm glad I decided to stay with chaos, I really enjoy the new codex - both competitive and for fun - and besides the cron flying croissant spam I have no issue with any other opponent I've faced.

All the power to you and I hope that you will keep enjoying it.

Make a competitive and fluffy Tzeentch list.... this is my challenge to you. I want to be evil and say "without daemon spam" but this is up to you.

That is a very valid point.

Yes even after 15years i still believe Chaos is the most awesome army, might call me a fool or crazy, but a rather be a crazy lunatic, then a stupid, cheap with no value bandwagoneer, who has a fickle heart and feeble mind.

I don't feel that any one those labels apply to me, OK, maybe the crazy/lunatic bit, but not the rest. Otherwise why would I have played Night Lords for so long and not Nurgle/BL? (NB. I know you are poking fun)

*Runs away, before the nurse catch him...*

*the nurse catches you and leads you into the linen room*

@ all the guys having a go about those of us not enjoying the new csm dex, give it a break, we aren't telling you to stop enjoying playing it, its just to us, or at least me, I Don't enjoy using the army. If you do, more power to you, and its not that I want an I win button, if it was that, I wouldn't have sold my crons, its that I Don't like how the list plays, and I Don't have fun playing it, that is, after all, the point of this hobby, to have fun. Its why I have gone back to my nids, cos they work in 6th, and what's more, they are fun to play. I love the fact my dakkaflyrants now work, and feel boss, and I love the way the battles flow now.

Well put Sir. :tu:

[hornywingythingy]

@ nihm, lol, I was slightly on a rant then, I blame lack of caffeine! ;)

 

But, like you, I have no plans to quit the hobby. One of the great things about having been gaming for 15 years is I have a selection of armies (and systems) to play.

[dark_elf]

I just wanted to chime in here because of what Nihn wrote a few posts back about being the only/last Chaos player.

 

I've been collecting CSM / Emperors Children to be more specific, since the first half of the 90s. While I have stayed true to collecting only 1 army, I have left 40K a few times, but always I return with each new edition. All my Chaos friends quit long time ago. First it was the crappy 3.0 dex. Then the Demon and CSM split. And my last 3 friends who continued Chaos with me for over a decade hung it all up with the previous codex

 

If you haven't done so, check out FW's Legion lists. It got me more interested in gaming, though admittedly it isn't really "Chaos". 

 

It is sad when the edition or codex has devolved to a point where the veterans of the Chaos find it difficult to continue gaming.

[zyl-]

I'm definately annoyed by the new book just because the baledrake is the uber unit. Most of last edition's models are out, and the ones I wouldn't have thought to use are in. I realize it's a ploy to generate sales, but I would think that a well designed game would sell more, not a game that forces shifts all the time. Any list that looks some thing like "helldrake helldrake helldrake cultists blah blah allies" is just not a list I want to play because if I have to buy a completely new set of models, why wouldn't I buy an army that's easier to use? I think that thought is exactly why so many people are willing to give up on chaos right now. The other codexes are still cheaper to boot.

[hornywingythingy]

I would think that a well designed game would sell more, not a game that forces shifts all the time. Any list that looks some thing like "helldrake helldrake helldrake cultists blah blah allies" is just not a list I want to play because if I have to buy a completely new set of models, .

I can kinda agree with that, add in three lacklustre codexes/armybooks, the return of the deckchair units in codex da, and a general approach of cut and paste the fluff from the old book, change some points costs, and release new uber units, and yet another impending price rise, and I'm seriously contemplating stopping updating my armies, I might play them until a new dex/armybook comes out, then wait six months and check the opinions on the book before purchasing/upgrading. At thirty quid a pop, possibly rising again this year, with the number of armies I have, its just too expensive to keep buying the books, which are becoming an erratic quality at best product.

 

On the plus side, this might get me playing more epic Armageddon.

[*Furyou Miko]

Make a competitive and fluffy Tzeentch list.... this is my challenge to you. I want to be evil and say "without daemon spam" but this is up to you.

 

Using Thousand Sons to represent my Order of Dusk cult (Aspiring Sorceresses with daemons bound into armour and other objects), I give you;

 

 

+++ No Name (1494pts) +++
+++ 1500pt Chaos Space Marines 6th Ed (2012) Roster (Primary Detachment)) +++
 
Selections:
 
Chaos Space Marines 6th Ed (2012) (Primary Detachment) Selections:
 
+ HQ +
 
    * Magister Aeronwy
        (Aura of dark glory, Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Hatred (Space Marines), Independent Character, Mark of Tzeentch, Psyker (Mastery Level 4), Veterans of the Long War, Warlord Traits: Master of Deception)
 
 
    * Archivist Tylwithen
        (Champion of Chaos, Independent Character, Master of Mechanisms, Shatter Defenses)
        Aura of dark glory, Combat familiar, Gift of mutation, Ichor blood, Mark of Tzeentch (Mark of Tzeentch), Power Axe, Scrolls of Magnus, The Murder Sword (Murder), Veterans of the Long War (Hatred (Space Marines), Veterans of the Long War)
 
 
+ Troops +
 
    * Order of Dusk Battle Squad
        (Fearless, Hatred (Space Marines), Mark of Tzeentch, Slow and Purposeful, Veterans of the Long War)
        5x Armour Wraiths
        * Aspiring Sorceress
            (Champion of Chaos, Psyker (Mastery Level 1))
            Force Staff, Gift of Mutation
 
 
    * Order of Dusk Battle Squad
        (Fearless, Hatred (Space Marines), Mark of Tzeentch, Slow and Purposeful, Veterans of the Long War)
        8x Armour Wraiths
        * Aspiring Sorceress
            (Champion of Chaos, Psyker (Mastery Level 1))
            Force Sword, Gift of Mutation
 
 
+ Fast Attack +
 
    * Posessed Aquila
        (Daemon, Daemonforge, It Will Not Die, Meteoric Descent)
        Baleflamer
 
 
    * Posessed Aqula
        (Daemon, Daemonforge, It Will Not Die, Meteoric Descent)
        Baleflamer
 
 
+ Heavy Support +
 
    * Order of Dusk Sorceress Squad
        * 3x Obliterators
            3x Mark of Tzeentch (Mark of Tzeentch)
 
 

Created with BattleScribe

[Iron_Within]

K cool Furyou could you run through how this one works? SM armies look like they should just remove their army from the table as soon as they put on (I don't think there is anything in there that isn't AP3). But how would you deal with armour heavy armies like MechIG or hordes like Tyranids, Orcs. I suspect I can see what you'd do with Tau (concentration of firepower will take out Crisis) but I can't see how you'd deal with 2+ Broadsides or terminators.

 

I am naturally trying to avoid pointing out min/maxed silly armies Cron air because those weren't the ones I was thinking of, just the other fluffy competitive lists you can see like IGMech, SW horde, Orc horde, Daemon lists. You get what I mean (I hope).