Grey Mage Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I think this a horrible catch 22: "I want it to be competitive" "I hate that its designed with allies in mind" "Why arent more units effective other than ____" 6th edition was written with allies as standard. The moment you discard them you are hampering yourself. You cant claim to be 'doing it hard' if you arent looking at all your allies options- and not just the battle brothers either. Im sorry Daemons are in a different codex, not that long ago they were the same book though... and traitor IG are a tradition going back atleast to 2nd edition when I started, if not rogue trader. Tossing either of those into the mix for good effect is hardly diluting the flavor of the army *for those who want more fluff driven* and certainly is effective *for those who want it 'ard*. Including them also allows for a much more varied playstyle, and possibly more in the future as those books are updated. And while I respect that chaos has been through a rough time, part of me wonders if any book would have been good enough this time around without being to 6th what GKs were near the end of 5th: near game breaking. The level of depression towards this game was only roughly matched by some DE and DA players. How much of this is just a hold over and a wish for past glories *ala 3.5*?Perception is reality. Heck, for the record: this codex almost gets me to play chaos under the banner of Nurgle. Almost. The fact that Im dirt poor right now and pissed at GW as a whole is the only reason I havent started them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 My main anti-TEq units are the Obliterators, magic (Doombolt!), and the Warpsmith can do a significant amount of damage in melee with her power axe, mechatendrils and an additional close combat weapon, potentially with whatever boosts she gets from the Scrolls of Magnus. Against armour, I've got vector striking Baledrakes and again, Obliterator weapons... and, of course, the oh-so-wonderful Machine Curse. Armour saturation like Mechanised guard is a potential threat, yes, but the key is to focus fire. On the one hand, you have six S8AP3 large blasts bearing down on you. On the other hand, you've got a 4+ invulnerable save on every model in the army and thirteen of your seventeen models just got demoted to "ablative wounds" until you can get in close enough to rip their rear armour open wit your bare gauntlets. I usually run Ahriman Aeronwy with Telepathy and Tzeentch, so I've got a fairly good chance of hijacking one of the enemies' units and using their weapons against them as well, although I'd consider Pyromancy if I was dealing with Guard. The main weakness of the list is actually its model count. Thousand Sons are cripplingly expensive - in a 1500 point list, I've got a grand total of seventeen non-flier models on the board. The glory of Thousand Sons, however, is that they don't care if you're anti-MEq, geared for hordes or set up to bust armour open. Lascannons are as effective as lasguns against them, more or less. The other potential pitfall is not getting Doombolt, but it's a 50/50 chance on the two Aspiring Sorceresses and I still have Obliterators (now if only I could fit a cultist squad in to cast Boon on!). Nothing in the army stands out as being more of a threat than anything else, and since with a little care I can get half the army Infiltrating it helps cope with the lack of mobility once it's on the field. Bad luck will see me swept in turn one by an ordnance barrage, of course, but that's going to be a risk with anyone - even Grey Knights and Necrons are in danger of that! As far as the Allies discussion is concerned, I like that we have the option - but needing them would be a pain. Good job we've got everything we need in our book, really, even if they are more optimal choices elsewhere. I still cackle over the idea of a squad of autocannon havocs sitting on a quad gun. :D How many BS4 S7 shots?! Talking of 'fun with allies', though, I had a good game the other day using Thousand Sons as allies to my Necrons. Distrusted Allies, yes, but when it's footslogging squads in a Veiltek army... :D Who cares? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304659 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 6th edition was written with allies as standard. So (taking for granted that CSM fail being allies), why would you choose CSM as a primary detachment over other choices? I can only think of 2 answers: a ) you love the fluff and cling to chaos no matter what or b ) more than 1 heldrake. and that is sad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Because I want to spam ML1 psykers? :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 I'm sorry; I don't want to play Allies. I bought a codex to play that codex. If they didn't write it to be well rounded enough to stand alone, I see them using that as an excuse to implement a design flaw and say 'working as intended'. I don't care if it's intentional... I'm seeing all these armies working with 'allies' that are historically enemies and it's just to abuse/use the other codexe's 'candy' that you normally don't get to touch. That's just not what I'm going to do... in fact I notice a great deal of people don't do this as the feel similar. If anyone tells me that's the way the codexes are written to work, I just don't agree. I think it's a cheap way out of making a solid codex, because you can always grab a ________________ (fill in the blank), from the IG codex. They did this to sell more models, not open up game play imo. Regardless I've been bouncing around more lists, and met with more disaster last night! I'm just about ready to go back to 'crons or pull out all my wolves. The only thing I haven't tried in 6th is a true Legion style army... Like Deathguard, or Emp's Children, or 1K sons. I respect people's decision to play zombie lists, but it's not something that really attracts me to Chaos Space Marines personally. I'm still trying to make it work again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304768 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 In my opinion the game could really use a Codex 'Scum and Villainy' covering Corrupt Nobles/Rogue traders, Apostates, Heretechs, Cultists, Mutants, Pirates, Slavers ect. They could be battle brothers with Chaos and all aliens in order to balance out Imperial Guard. Rogue Psykers with access to divination would be nice too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304822 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I'm gonna make a go of it using just csm's, if that doesnt work I'll try csm's w daemon allies (bc we should be able to summon them anyway). I neither of those make for an interesting game/list (I dont care about "I win button" but I do want it to be workable), I am gonna pull out my almost unused nids , glue them back together (how do models sitting untouched on a shelf in a foam bottomed box get pieces broken off ??? ) . I hear ppl are having a good time w those. I think grey mage is right, only something the quality of 3.5 would have satisified us old chaos players. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I get not wanting to use Allies, but when I first read about it, I thought it was neat that I'd (officially) be able to play both of my armies together, and I was interested in coming up with differing combinations, some more fluff driven than others. About 3.5 codex, has anyone tried a few 6th edition games with the 'Holy of Holies' everyone pines about? If it works well, why not just use it? You could always ally in Anti-Flier stuff if you needed it (assuming it works well), though I imagine paying for grenades and all would get old real quick. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 The "need to use allies" to be competitive is really dumb. I mean I like the option, being able to use my armies together in games is nice but I don't like doing that in games under 2k. Really the only lists that can stand up to the tournament lists nowadays is Nurgle which is cool for Nurgle people but for those of us who like to use all the marks....not so much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304897 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 But nurgle has always been the best mark, even as far back as 2nd ed... ...though they really didn't skip the sauce on them in this codex though, hardest troop to kill, best at range and best in melee as well...sounds logical... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Ambroz Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 They weren't the best in 3.5 Excessus. Anyway, the point is we shouldn't have to go mono Nurgle to be competitive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304915 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 But nurgle has always been the best mark, even as far back as 2nd ed... ...though they really didn't skip the sauce on them in this codex though, hardest troop to kill, best at range and best in melee as well...sounds logical... realy ? nurgle better in 2ed? plague bearers sucked in 2ed . every good chaos armies bloodletter because they were cheap and effective and it was easier to get the summoning points for them , then bloodletters. also khorn was giving you +1 to armor back then a khorn lord was +1 sv on 2d6 in terminator armor . nurgle was giving him +1T . lol in an edition of TH/Fist/Chainfists hiting at initiative and force weapons buffing str for using force cards , nurgle was best ? even a tzeench lord was better then a nurgle lord , because you could make him a sorc and take adeptus to get Gate which comboed awesome combat drugs . Christ even a slanesh lord was better then a nurgle one , because while I buff sucked a lot a fiend mount+frenzon +combat drugs was giving a 36" charge and back then you didnt even have see stuff to charge it . till gav dex , nurgle was at best meh . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Ok, maybe I should have said Plague Marines then. Plague marines were horrid with their blight grenade minefields if I remember correctly. And why would you not take a MoN on your lord, and MoS and MoT? He could have several marks at the same time unlike the other characters... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3304985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 because it cost too much MoT+MoS or a MoK+MoS for a noncaster was enough . blight grenades were only a problem for the 200 termagant nid builds[and may I say that in the times of metal gaunts they were as popular] , everything else was shoting or ignoring it[because of jump packs or gate being the main way to travel/charge or orks pulsa rokkiting you for 2-3 turns etc]. + again they cost points . a veteran csm squad made out of 4 dudes with plasma cost 99pts and were worth 0 VP . being worth nothing was the most optimal thing to do in 2ed , the game was too deadly to have 1-2 vp stuff runing around and costing you games. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I'm sorry; I don't want to play Allies. I bought a codex to play that codex. If they didn't write it to be well rounded enough to stand alone, I see them using that as an excuse to implement a design flaw and say 'working as intended'. I don't care if it's intentional... I'm seeing all these armies working with 'allies' that are historically enemies and it's just to abuse/use the other codexe's 'candy' that you normally don't get to touch. Honestly I agree with you. Im just saying you cant have it both ways. GW either fails at writing stand alone codices or it fails to consider how the armies will interact as allies and creates imbalances that way. Honestly, I think what C:SM lacks is a different deployment option. Its what keeps the other books fresh. How you move determines almost everything else in the army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305208 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 I may have been away from Wolves too long, but in saying that I find it a lot easier to make a list that flows better with Wolves. I am seriously considering dumping this project. Not to be a "Debbie Downer" but I'm wondering if I've brought too much -junk- to the table being a long time Chaos player? Maybe it's just not going to suit my eye anymore no matter what I do. I know there are some 'decent' lists out there, but what I considered fun doesn't seem to usable in a tournament setting.... Looking at some of the units that look fun, I was looking forward to: - Warp Talons - Mutilators - new IC rules (Huron has been great tbh) - Cultists - Heldrake - Termies (decent in last edition) - Forgefiend - Helbrute - Maulerfiend. Of that list, you can pretty much scratch half of it off. It boggles me that some of the new stuff, which obviously they want to sell, isn't really doing too great for me so far. I'm at a point where I find if I want to do a Forgefiend/Maulerfiend, I spam AV 12 in the list so something has a chance of surviving the netlists out there.... The last game I played (I kinda of elude to this in my Daemon Prince thread) I took 'new' and 'fun' options against a proven Nid list. I'm embarrsed to say this, but I failed to kill one unit, and shook hands at the bottom of turn 3 (might have been start of 4) because I was down to 1 havok, 4 marines, and the Heldrake. This same nid list I beat quite handidly with my tame, but capable Necron list (only 2 flyers, nothing too abusive). The more I force myself to try really different units and lists, the more I find myself noticing that incredible desparity in unit function dependent on -luck-. It seems that Chaos since Gav dex has been plagued by a lot of stuff that is very prone to luck....I know luck comes into many armies, and it's the nature of a dice based game, but I feel Chaos is afflicted with this moreso than any other army I have. Like the new Forgefiend/Maulterfiend is a perfect example. For all intents and purposes it is a crappy AV 12 walker. You pay a lot of points for this mediocre armour. Why? Because if you make it into the right situation, it could do REALLY well. The 'Fiends are equipped with the (if you're LUCKY enough) ability to shrug literally anything off in the game with a 5+ save. How lucky are you? Daemon weapon... same thing.. it goes from mediocre to amazing depending on your luck, Helbrute? Same thing.... a lot of chance items in this codex and I know some days it results in those crazy stories about how many attacks you got three times in a row with your Mace equipped Daemon Prince and how he rocked through half your opponent's army. But the next game you could be talking about 3 turns of him hitting himself in the face because you were unlucky. It is an element of the codex I was hoping they would shake..... from possessed all the way down to Dreads, they kept some element of it. All that being said, I guess at heart I'm a glutton for punishment though, because I keep coming back for more. I haven't spent the big bucks on the new big models because I just own so much of it (past editions) right now. I still think a 'death guard' based army could work.... fearless troops/FnP is huge.... even Emperor's Children seem more valid with dual Blastmasters... I just really wanted to stick with unmarked/undivided... The only really 'cult' army I've had is Deathguard back in 3.0 and I sold it after a tournament. Not sure I'd want to handcuff myself like that again! Anyway, I apologize for the rambling. Thus far my Word Beaerer project has been a bust, I had more success with my boring but effective Huron lists. Still thinking about pulling the plug on this when I think that this is a new codex, but struggling to find a happy medium. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakarsis Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 In my opinion the game could really use a Codex 'Scum and Villainy' covering Corrupt Nobles/Rogue traders, Apostates, Heretechs, Cultists, Mutants, Pirates, Slavers ect. They could be battle brothers with Chaos and all aliens in order to balance out Imperial Guard. Rogue Psykers with access to divination would be nice too. That would be perfect. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305307 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 why would chaos marines be battle brothers with anybody? it's just flesh to be thrown into the grinder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Furyou Miko Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Because, Nehekhare, Tzeentch is a thing. :p Alpha Legion would also potentially personally join 'grist' squads to get them working more efficiently, especially if it's just an alpha legionnaire manipulating a horde of guardsmen to their bidding. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305621 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 why would chaos marines be battle brothers with anybody? it's just flesh to be thrown into the grinder. because having more battlebrothers means more possible lists made ? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305658 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'm sure some Chaos marines are capable of subtlety and working in harmony with lesser mortals. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted February 15, 2013 Author Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'm sure some Chaos marines are capable of subtlety and working in harmony with lesser mortals. Sure, but who would work with chaos? ;) I mean at the end of the day you gotta know you're gonna get burned, stabbed, poisoned, possessed or sacrificed to some dark entity as soon as the battle is over. lol I think I'm gonna take a break from Chaos again. It's been a fun couple of games, but it's not quite doing it for me right now. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305863 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chillin Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Yeah, I'm playing a game tomorrow night and I think I'll be using my nids, I've really never used them b4. I was pretty excited about this new dex, but once I got it , it is prettty much failing to impress. MB I'll model up some drakes (yeah, I know ) and try it again in a few months,,,,,or whenever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuggnuggath Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Regarding who would work with Chaos. Just some examples. How about a degenerate, insane and corrupt Rogue Trader dynasty (full of secret mutant offspring) that spent too long in the warp. An Alpha Plus Psychic Abomination and his mind slaves on the run from the Ordo Hereticus. A Heretech Explorator force harvesting Dark Archeotech from daemon worlds in the Eye of Terror. A group of Spire nobles who got a bit too into their bloodsports and started venerating Khorne. A 'black ops' cell of Terrorists hell bent on 'bringing down the system!' ect. I'm sure none of these guys would bat an eyelash at some renegade space marines Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3305979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 or how about give chaos csm units the option to buy 40pts drop pods , but on landing the unit takes d3 str 6 ap - hits . you get the random factor GW lots to force on us , our drop pods are different from imperial , we get a different deployment method and our dex gets more interesting . ah and give the dread the "cofined rage" rule . roll d6 2-3 he can assault from the pod . 4-5 he shots twice exiting the pod. on 1. he gets d3 str 6 again [that is 2d3 str 6 hit on av10] and the good old 6 he shots and charges the same turn . the problem with demon battlebrothers is not that they do better then csm solo.they do , but its not the problem. it is how demons deploy and the fact that neither their nor out HQs can join each others units. loyalst meq[of the non GK kind] +IG or meq+meq synergy is awesome because those dudes can run around in the same units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270705-has-anything-come-out-of-the-woodwork-in-the-last-2-months/page/3/#findComment-3306023 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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