General Strategic Think Tank

[Asmodai's Joy]

So, as any given one of you may or may not know, I have been back hovering around since the drop of the new 'dex, and offered odd and end suggestions here and there on some army lists, but not put up one of my own. The reason for this, simply put, is I don't know what I truly want to commit to, and it occurs to me that at the root of it lies the area meta. So, I've decided to take the think tank I normally engage in when the rules of a game change on me to a far greater level than simply my local handful of hobbyists. After all, Adepticon is an area tourney that draws players in from all across America, as well as players from the U.K., Australia, and beyond. If I want to give a good representation of the Chapter at such a gathering, I feel I should speak to my brothers of the chapter itself.

 

The point of the think tank, in general, is for us to share information about our own strengths and weaknesses as well as those that consist of our primary opposition in the tournament scene. Needless to say, this is not an inconsiderable number of variables to list, but by encouraging this sort of free thought, we're helping all the players of our revamped chapter flourish.

 

So, I'll get the ball rolling with what information I have, and feel free to throw your own area meta into the mix of the discussion as well.

 

Obvious strengths of our chapter:

 

Objective claiming. Our chapter has unprecedented power in this arena as we can make almost everything in the entire army list count as a troops choice, should we feel inclined.

 

Deep striking: Between the sheer amount of teleport homers we have, Belial himself, and the twin-linked effect when our terminators deep strike, we have, in essence, the most devastating Terminators in the game today, at least in theory.

 

The Knights: Both the Ravenwing and Deathwing Knights have tremendous potential for reducing the enemy to pulp.

 

The Greenwing: As said in another thread, we have the lowest points cost unit of men in power armor in the game today.

 

The Standards: While some of them are a little lackluster, the standards of the bygone days are back with a vengeance. This, coupled with the above sentiments, makes us problematic no matter what route we go.

 

The Librarians: We have two of the most well-regarded psychic schools at our disposal: Telepathy and Telekinesis.

 

Obvious Downsides:

 

Turning everything into troops only has so much of a point. Terminators still have low model count, and Bikes are neither great vs. the air, nor safe from pretty much anything that laughs off a cover save.

 

Greenwing, by contrast, still has havock wreaked upon it by templates and large blasts(to say nothing of Necron weaponry).

 

As versatile as we are, our versatility is largely confined to ourselves. DA makes good allies, but, true to the fluff, is not so great about having them.

 

Area Meta:

 

We have a fair shake of Necrons with both Gauss and Telsa weaponry.

   Some of the area tournies have seen them pairing with Orks to use Waaagh abilities to make literal torrents of fire.

 

We still have a strong Grey Knight presence.

 

We have fewer Space Wolf players around here, but it's pretty much what you read about here or anywhere else. Scary Psychers, Thunderwolf Cav, and so on...

 

We have a fairly strong Guard presence.

 

So, I leave it to you, my brothers, to suggest notions of what might be a good all-comers list in this environment, because I, truly, am at a loss.

[Asmodai's Joy]

As an addendum, I would state I'm at a loss because they all look about equal in my eyes, but I've heard horror stories from both Ravenwing and Deathwing players, and don't see almost *any* Greenwing to talk to.

[IndigoJack]

The Librarians: We have two of the most well-regarded psychic schools at our disposal: Telepathy and Telekinesis.

 

And divination. Almost any result from divination is good, and if you get one that isn't, you can default to prescience.

 

I've been thinking of ideas recently, especially regarding greenwing.

 

First, due to the low price of our tacticals, we can mech spam effectively and still have room our nice toys.

 

Second, a PFG, standard of devastation, and a LRC seem to be one of the common competitive combos. This can also be used as an allied detatchment with a modest troop tax. Throw in a dark talon for more hurricane bolter goodness.

 

Another idea, is scouts w/ camo cloaks + darkshroud + ADL This will give the scouts an effective 2+ cover save without the need to go to ground. Throw in a libby and SoD and you've got a decently priced firebase.

 

As far as ravenwing go, black knights are fantastic. They're a solid swiss army knife with many capabilities; TL plasma for MEQs, rad shells to soften blob and 3 base attacks, S5 rending and stasis shells for assault makes these guys good at almost everything. Two small units and a darkshroud escort are an excellent force multiplier for anything you want to do.

 

That's all I've got so far, but I'm still working on more!

[Asmodai's Joy]

Thank you for pointing out Div. That was a brainfart on my part. The reason I didn't bring up Divination specifically was the Primaris power, but the reason the Primaris power isn't so big for us as it is for other armies should have been listed in our initial obvious strengths.

 

Obvious Strength: Swarms of Twin-Linked options.

[Upstartes]

I'm having an acronym brain fart: what is PFG?

[Spaced Hulk]

 

Upstartes, on 03 Feb 2013 - 17:26, said:
I'm having an acronym brain fart: what is PFG?

Power field generator.

To the OP: what sort of points level are you looking at?

One aspect of the new book is that there seems to be lots of viable builds. Unlike the last dex (where, in general, you either played Deathwing or you used a different codex). While this is obviously an immense improvement, it does make selecting an army a bit more complicated. When pure Deathwing, pure Ravenwing, pure Greenwing and pretty much any variant of mixed Wing are all valid choices, it's quite difficult to suggest a specific build to match your specifications.

I think a lot depends on points level, individual playstyle and (of course) which models you have available.

My personal thinking is that while pure DW & RW are perfectly viable, the strongest lists are going to be those which mesh all three elements together. In that regard, Azrael becomes a very stong choice. Not only because of how he changes the Force Organisation Chart, but also because of his other benefits to the army (Rites of Battle, 4++ save to his unit, strong assault ability etc). Therefore, if you want a strong all-comers list, I think taking the Supreme Grand Master is one of the first things to consider.

[Asmodai's Joy]

1850. It varies, but most of the local tournies are 1850.

[Tiger9gamer]

i played a very small tourney, and i have to say, mech spam is a pretty fun thing to do. The non-squash match I played was against an 8 leman russ Imperial guard list, and i had very bad dice rolling. Only won because of the deathwing knight's toughness letting them wither the fury of 6 tanks (including a demolisher and a ton of lascannons) and getting my mace wielding company master into charge distance.

 

 

played a 520pt game against Dark eldar, and the whirlind was a major player in that game.

[egon1six]

 

One aspect of the new book is that there seems to be lots of viable builds. Unlike the last dex (where, in general, you either played Deathwing or you used a different codex). While this is obviously an immense improvement, it does make selecting an army a bit more complicated. When pure Deathwing, pure Ravenwing, pure Greenwing and pretty much any variant of mixed Wing are all valid choices, it's quite difficult to suggest a specific build to match your specifications.

 

I think a lot depends on points level, individual playstyle and (of course) which models you have available.

 

My personal thinking is that while pure DW & RW are perfectly viable, the strongest lists are going to be those which mesh all three elements together. In that regard, Azrael becomes a very stong choice. Not only because of how he changes the Force Organisation Chart, but also because of his other benefits to the army (Rites of Battle, 4++ save to his unit, strong assault ability etc). Therefore, if you want a strong all-comers list, I think taking the Supreme Grand Master is one of the first things to consider.

 

 

I have to concur with this train of thought. I believe a blended wing approach is best for us. Finding that right mix of death/raven and green will be tricky. I have been running lists of 1k just to see what does what. Next month will be mixing and and matching at 1.5k. and the month after that will be 2k more mixing and matching. By the end of April I will trim the fat of the 2k list to 1850 and have a go at the summer tourny scene.

[Brother Immolator]

Well in my eyes, the view is like this: We can do everything a codex chapter can do but even better. We can score better, we can deploy unique units, we smash face better, we can shoot better, we are more mobile and so on. Our weaknesses are the same as every marine army: Ap3 armor although arguably the best armor in the game is also the scales by which every army balances its shooting and assault. So in that regard our negative is on par with codex marines.

The second negative is our flyers. They are a tad bit worse than both the talon and the raven but then again IMHO ours are having different missions to accomblish. Oh and BTW we can ground theirs better at least for now .

So, we are simply better. At least till the new UM codex appears and is a total rip off of our own again.

All praise Guillyman and all that...bleh

I have to concur with this train of thought. I believe the blender-wing approach is best for us

There, I think thats better :P

[Asmodai's Joy]

I appreciate the feedback to my issues guys, though admittedly, I'm a little surprised the thread isn't still going. I mean I PUT THIS UP FOR EVERYONE TO BENEFIT! The think tank wasn't put up just to help me. Have a Pesky Newcron player you just can't beat? Is the insanity of the new Chaos Demons causing a stir in your town? Tell us! Your Brothers are here for you!

[Brother Immolator]

Well I tabled some necrons with my dualwing list the other day (HA gotcha its greenwing and knights not a single terminator in it)

Here it is for reference, by any means no tourney material though:

Librarian (staff)
-- Mastery level 2
-- Power field generator
-- Devination and Telekinesis

Command Squad (BPs & Chaniswords)
-- Storm Bolter
-- Sacred Standard of Devastation


Troops


Tactical squad
-- Veteran sergeant
-- +5 marines
-- flamer

-- melta bombs
-- missile launcher

-- flakk missiles
-- Razorback Lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun


Tactical squad
-- Veteran sergeant
-- +5 marines
-- flamer
-- missile launcher

-- flakk missiles
-- melta bombs
-- Razorback Lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun


Scout Squad
-- +5 scouts
-- The whole squad replaces their boltguns for sniper rifles
-- 10 Cammo cloaks
-- Missile launcher
-- Flakk missiles


Fast attack


Ravenwing Blacknights
-- +3 blacknights
-- 2 models replace their plasma talons for launchers
-- The hunts master takes melta bombs


Heavy support


Devastator squad
-- Veteran sergeant
-- +5 marines
-- 2x Heavy bolters
-- 2x Lascannons


Land Raider
-- Multy melta


Land Speeder Vengeance
Upgrades: None.

Total 1850.

He was running an AV13 spam (with those pesky fields than once you penetrate are down). Pretty much out gunned him at range and the libby was forcing his infantry to rerolled their saves. The knights took a tally with their melta bombs and hammers, and deep struck the speeder to cause problems to his back field. If I had the points I would add a DWs squad in there. It screams for inclusion. Rad grenades and heavy bolters/plasma are a tomb stone to necron infantry.

[Interrogator Stobz]

You feilded a Derpspeeder!!!? Even though you tabled him you auto lose and are to make yourself available for a dreadsocking at your earliest convienience.

 

Better luck next time Brother Immolator :P

 

s

[MolonLabe]

My play area is heavy on CSM (Helldrakes), Stormravens (GK and BA), armor 13+ ('crons, Preds, LR, etc), and 'Cron Air, not to mention bastions filled with all kinds of different goodies.  Pure RW doesn't really have an answer for this as I see it, b/c there simply isn't anything strong enough to pop the vehicles effectively other than MMAB and they get targeted quickly for that reason.  In addition, the model count is similar to pure DW and relying on cover saves is sometimes not an option (helldrakes, perfect timing).  I have to agree that the blended wing probably is the way to go, so I've started developing a list based around a rapid strike/response idea.  The core of the list looks something like this:

 

Sammael

Tac Squad w/ Plasma

Drop Pod with Locator Beacon and Deathwind Missile Launcher

2x DW w/ CF and AC

2x RAS (6) w/ PG, ABMM, LSTyph

 

There are several options for support which I'm still working out, but the gameplan looks like this.  Turn 1 Drop Pod comes in while bikes and landspeeders move up.  T2 DWA using either the locator beacon or teleport homers.  By this time the bikes should be in support.  I would run the RWCS and SoD with Sammael as well, and it would be a bonus to get that squad within range of the tac squad as well.  I haven't tried Azrael, but he might also be a viable option to make the DW scoring.  This type of setup almost guarantees that flyers will not be much of an issue, therefore AA is not really a concern.

 

Support options as I see it are either of the flyers, darkshroud, or RWBKs

 

In this type of list I also have not found much success for a Dev squad in the back.  They are either killed quickly by the other side's deep striking units or effectively out of range/blocked line of sight, and therefore ineffective. 

[Polythemus]

I appreciate the feedback to my issues guys, though admittedly, I'm a little surprised the thread isn't still going. I mean I PUT THIS UP FOR EVERYONE TO BENEFIT! The think tank wasn't put up just to help me. Have a Pesky Newcron player you just can't beat? Is the insanity of the new Chaos Demons causing a stir in your town? Tell us! Your Brothers are here for you!

asmodai, i want to offer this as constructive criticism. based on the quote you made here and also your opening quote, i think your goal for this thread is a little too broad. I am paraphrasing but, It seems the goal for this thread is keeping all discussion of all positive and negative points having to do with any Dark Angels build and the relevant tactics based on the opposition they might face. it doesnt offer enough of a focus for people to know what to post here (and makes for a crazy long sentence). if you set up multiple threads as tactical primers eg. facing Necrons; facing Helldrakes, etc. or the proper amount of aa for dark angels... you might get more commitment cause they have a focus and people would know what they contained.

 

All things being equal heres something ive been pondering. How many of azreals traits should you be ultilizing for azreal to be getting your points worth? Azreal is priced at a level to be buffing a squad, (4++)

buffing an army (Rites..., Choose your own Adventure WL trait)

make FA scoring (DW)

make elite scoring (RW)

master crafted plasgun (but its rapidfire)

cc monster (SoSecrets)

Ability to tank and artificer armor (4W, 2+, 6+FNP)

 

in my conversations with Brom (since we seem to be commenting on other lists alot and quoting each other's ideas) it has been difficult to come up with a way to properly ultilize azreal. I feel this is because his abilities are so disparate and aspiriing generals cant figure out how to use all his abilities at once. I have noticed the iterations of his uses have been, 1. put him in guard blob 2. put him in a raider 3. have him buff the DEVs and man the quad gun 4. put him in a pod. Perhaps with azreal we need to build lists in a new way. I posit this to you: instead of giving azreal a specific role within a list try and design it so that game to game he can change his place and position to have a use for at least 4 of his three major benefits. With this kind of flexibility you make it a little easier to limit his role in a particular game but over several games he will change his role to suit your opponent. this may mean forgoing making both DW and RW troops which is where most of us get hung up.

[ZeBaron]

Has anyone considered running Ezekiel with a melee oriented command squad? With Mind Worm, Divination, the Book of Salvation, it doesn't actually seem too shabby. I've considered running him for a long time now. Especially just because I'd love to see what Mind Worm + Psychic Shriek (from another libby, of course) does to monstrous creatures.

[march10k]

I started DA in 1999 playing 5th company with just one squad of termies in support. In fourth, I shifted over to deathwing, and haven't really looked back, since my "immovable object" core of the green list (three ten man stubborn plas/plas squads) was nerfed to crap. Now...I'm still going to play deathwing, but I'm list-fu-ing options for reviving my 5th company list. I particularly like the massive haircut that they gave lascannon devastators, but cheap tactical squads (185 for 10 men and plas/plas/pw) with rites of battle (Azzy's a no-brainer, even without termies or bikes) are also attractive for the unmodifiable LD10.

for example:

hq: azrael in command squad with standard of devastation and th/ss brother (just cause I have a model for that)

troops:

4 ten man tactical squads with plas/plas and power sword

fast attack:

ten man assault squad with power sword
typhoon
typhoon

heavy:

ten man dev squad with four lascannons
WW
WW

That's a ton of crap for 1850. 66 marines. 8 plasma weapons. 4 lascannons. 4 missiles. two pie-plates...

 

/edit/  It's possible to design a more effective anti-greenskin list, of course...but just imagine what this list would do to a horde of boyz...

[Brother Immolator]

You feilded a Derpspeeder!!!? Even though you tabled him you auto lose and are to make yourself available for a dreadsocking at your earliest convienience.

Better luck next time Brother Immolator

s

I dont want to upset you but I replaced my vindicator to do so

You may find solace on the fact that I lost it (destroyed) durring the last round and that it was proxied by a nilla speeder.

But it had taken its toll by then, it was too little too late.

EDIT:

in my conversations with Brom (since we seem to be commenting on other lists alot and quoting each other's ideas) it has been difficult to come

up with a way to properly ultilize azreal. I feel this is because his abilities are so disparate and aspiriing generals cant figure out how to

use all his abilities at once. I have noticed the iterations of his uses have been, 1. put him in guard blob 2. put him in a raider 3. have him buff the DEVs and man the quad gun 4. put him in a pod. Perhaps with azreal we need to build lists in a new way. I posit this to you: instead of giving azreal a specific role within a list try and design it so that game to game he can change his place and position to have a use for at least 4 of his three major benefits. With this kind of flexibility you make it a little easier to limit his role in a particular game but over several games he will change his role to suit your opponent. this may mean forgoing making both DW and RW troops which is where most of us get hung up.

Can I drop a couple of cents?

IMHO you can only combine Azs abilities only by using him with a vet or command squad. Forget using the combi plasma on the charge this wont happen. Use it on overwatch in the odd case he is been charged. His Statline doesnt allow him to remain in the backfield manning anti air guns, he needs to be to the field ASAP and challenging left and right, cutting down everything else. His warlord traits are too flexible to benefit the entire army (or his squad) no matter his possition. The only odd case is Hold at all costs and IMHO you should choose something else.

On a side note I refer to units and strategies from our own codex. I cant bother to build 40 models from another codex with the probability of rendering them useless looming at the horison, at the whim of a rules change. However effective that 40 models may be.

[march10k]

Oh...just noticed the Azzy question. Well, his "value" is variable, but I find that it actually goes down, not up, if you field termies with him. Why? Rites of Battle. Termies get zero benefit, and five termies cost as much as fifteen marines, pushing units that could benefit out of the list. Meanwhile, compare rites of battle to the alternative for power armored marines. At 10 points/squad, they can get LD9, which is better than 8, but not anywhere near as bombproof as 10. So...how many squads do you have? Rites of Battle alone would be worth 60 points in my list above...is the rest of what Azzy brings worth 150 points? Let's see...yeah! In my case, he's giving the command squad a 4++, protecting the banner of devastation. That's worth some points when there are 32 tactical squad bolt guns (plus five in the command squad, if you include the lion's wrath) feeding off of the banner. His statline and war gear do a good job of safeguarding that warlord victory point. More value. Choice of traits? What's that worth? Not much, frankly, if you're using him as I do.

 

Anyway, giving 6 or more units LD10 while giving a standard of devastation (and his four meat shields) a 4++ and being prepared to counter-charge any enemy that comes at your gun line...that seems to offer the best Azzy-value. Seems fluffy in a Koth Ridge sort of way. It's cool that DA can be insanely shooty (with power armor spam backed by SoD) or insanely fighty (deathwing) or insanely slippery (ravenwing), few codexes can do even two of those well. Azzy belongs in the gun line version.

[elphilo]

The problem with Azrael is that his abilities pull him into multiple directions. He unlocks DW/RW but can't really go with any of them. He doesn't have a bike and he can't Deep Strike. He can ride with the Deathwing in a Land Raider, but with the buff to Deathwing Deep Striking I feel it's a waste. Then if you just take power armor your wasting his ability to unlock DW/RW as troops. The only way not to waste him I feel is a try wing. But to be effective we're talking a 2500+ point game, and at that point you might as well be playing Apoc.

Anyway, giving 6 or more units LD10 while giving a standard of devastation (and his four meat shields) a 4++ and being prepared to counter-charge any enemy that comes at your gun line...that seems to offer the best Azzy-value. Seems fluffy in a Koth Ridge sort of way. It's cool that DA can be insanely shooty (with power armor spam backed by SoD) or insanely fighty (deathwing) or insanely slippery (ravenwing), few codexes can do even two of those well. Azzy belongs in the gun line version.

So far this is the best idea of heard of with using him. Though I feel like using him as a counter charge unit is a waste since he has a great melee stat line.

[Centurio]

Anyone given much though to "Ironwing" in the new codex?

 

I think we can now get the lasplas rhino can't we???  Any thoughts on that configuration?

 

Also, you can field 6 5-man tac squads with flamers mounted in Razorbacks with TL lascannons for around 900 points, I think.  I would probably add in 3 Vindicators for complete mech spam.  I would have a couple of characters with aupexes hanging around.   You can smash their armor (if any) with lascannons and then drop pie plates on them.  The flamers can help reduce hordes.  Will this work in 6th edition?  It's probably meta-dependant I guess.  I have the models to field this army and I may try it.

 

edit:  Oh, and I forgot to mention the Power Field Generators ......

[Drunkspleen]

Rites of Battle. Termies get zero benefit, 

 

It helps them pass Split Fire tests, and any of a number of Leadership tests enemy codices might be able to call on them to take, for example Mind Shackle Scarabs.

 

As you already identified there's a pretty vast gulf between LD 9 and 10, and I don't think Rites of Battle is even close to having "zero benefit" for Terminators.

[Centurio]

When using a dual wing army with Azrael, his rites of Battle saved me from Mind Shackle scarabs several times.

[march10k]

~shrug~  Ok...mind shackle scarabs...he helps them against one army.  And split fire tests...he helps them if and only if you roll precisely a 10 for leadership...if you shoot craps, you know how often that happens...it requires double fives (1/36 chance), or a six plus a four (2/36) chance, for an aggregate of 1/12...depending on how many split fire test taking units your Azzy-led force takes (um, if it's more than two units, you're probably better off with belial instead), the answer to how helpful he is to termies is "not very," considering that the split fire test basically lets you not shoot your stormbolters at krak missile targets.  A few gratuitous boltgun shots will turn a game once a year, if you play every weekend.

 

Azzy is a poor choice to lead an army with (more than five?) terminators.  He's an excellent choice to lead a DA gunline.

 

He does have a great statline.  If the point of the game were herohammer, fine, throw him forward.  It's not.  Rites of Battle is worth far more.  Even the lion helm is worth more, if it's protecting the standard of devastation.  Most codices have great melee characters.  How many have table-wide unmodifiable LD10?  You think a counter-charge role means no combat?  Any enemy who fails to trigger his counter-charge auto-loses.  The only way to beat a gunline is with a better gunline, or by getting stuck in.  IG might be able to conjure a better gunline, but it'll be one that'll fold like a paper tiger in the face of melee units (which even shooty marines won't!), but most IG armies I see try to be too elite, to their detriment, so a true SIGAFH is incredibly rare.  Anyone else other than guard will either just die (tau-I play them) or will have to get across the table and charge.  Sometimes you don't have to hunt the enemy with your beatstick.  Sometimes, you make him come to you. I'd prefer that he didn't, but Azzy will see melee combat.

 

If you want a melee army, play deathwing (I do).  If you want to play azrael, he's meant to be leading the better part of a battle company.  By issuing orders, not by charging into melee.  If azzy dies, so does rites of battle.  So does that sweet-assed 4++ on his unit.  I'm not saying hide him.  I'm saying he's an officer, not a sergeant.  He's not as fragile as Creel, but his role is the same.  Azrael is far more useful pointing and shouting than hacking and slashing.

[Tiger9gamer]

Sicarius is the only one as far as I know to do that for guys. and does Calgar count?