General Strategic Think Tank

[Darkangeldentist]

Azrael is really useful now and there are some great reasons why he is worth taking. The points about how he does not work that impressively with Deathwing or Ravenwing are true but that by no means he shouldn't take them in a list led by him.

 

As some have pointed out, rites of battle has some good uses even for Deathwing and being about to take them as troops is a brilliant benefit to list selection as just about everything can be scoring if you wish. Azrael provides probably the most benefit to a regular tactical squad or veteran unit because of the lion helm but his raw killing power against anything with a 3+ save or worse makes him an excellent choice with any unit, terminators may not get much out of the lion helm but they certainly appreciate the reduction in attacks coming their way. I have also just started fielding Azrael with Ezekiel and they make an excellent pair. Ezekiel gets an invulnerable save (which he needs!) and your librarian is about as good as you could hope for. During a game it's easy enough to jump from unit to unit and if Azrael spends the opening turns getting a tactical squad up the field or stopping your devastators (or command squad) from getting blatted then it's all worthwhile use of him. Once the lines close you can afford to perhaps slide him into a different unit, Deathwing knights may not get any benefit from the lion helm but Azrael's attacks help keep the squad alive and will let it mince power armoured units as if they weren't there for likely little to no loss and Azrael really likes being toughness five to lessen the risk of instant death.

 

For me the key benefit Azrael brings if flexibility with your army, you can take almost anything. Even at 1500pts I managed to pair him with Ezekiel, two squads of deathwing (with assorted weaponry) a couple of tactical squads, devastators and a dreadnought. Not the most amazing force by any stretch but I had a lot of fun using it and it ended up slaughtering the Blood angels it went up against. I had no issues at all being able to claim objectives, the Deathwing provided a rock solid opening punch to force my opponent onto the back foot from the first turn and the devastators and tactical marines gave a bit of long range firepower to back them up too. Ezekiel added greatly to that with divination powers and overall the game played in an almost text book fashion. (For me anyway.)

 

Azrael in my mind works best in a fully mixed list, taking a squad or two of Deathwing and/or Ravenwing just as I would for a normal fully mixed list but they still have the benefit of being scoring. Azrael backs up the core marine element of the army with both combat punch and the invulnerable save of the lion helm meaning they can hang on a lot longer than one might expect.

 

In terms of general strategies I find it hard to sum up beyond what has already been said. We now have the ability to field a lot of viable and potent lists and that should make it hard to 'meta' against. Pure Deathwing and Ravenwing lists are potent, fragile and play in extremely aggressive fashions, regular greenwing is versatile if a little static and can pump out vast amounts of firepower now with the standard of devastation and mixed lists allow for a huge range of combinations.

 

I would like to add a point or two on command squads. Dark angels now have a huge range of choice with command squads ranging from the different unit options but also how you equip them. The ravenwing command squad is actually very cheap for what you get (if very fragile by itself) whist the Deathwing option is simply a great all-purpose hammer unit (albeit a bit limited by the squad size). The regular power armoured command squads are the most interesting though. You can go with the standards for a superb support and army amplifier unit, or an extra min-sized veteran unit with more options. Being able to take a special weapon on every model makes them a fantastically felxible and potent little choice for dealing with certain threats.

[Brother Immolator]

Why do you pps judge him on the so called fact that he must join ravenwing or terminator units since he unlocks them? Or that since he unlocks your list must comprise a deathraven build?

I have done some calculations. In order to build a generic master that approaches (but cant quite do what the SGM can) costs you a tinny bit more and doesnt confer you neither bonuses to the army neither does he have the combat effectiveness of AZ.

 

For reference:

 

Company master with: Lions Roar, mace of redemption, shroud of heroes,powerfield generator and arty armor (remember that we try to make him look like the boss himself to compare options) costs more points.

Granted you can minimise costs by giving him a combi plasma and he will be at almost excact points.

 

Lets compare gains and losses:

 

At first glance the loses are 1Attack and one wound,  rerolls due to the sword of secrets been master crafted. In melee the power field generator will also give protection to the enemy or if you take the other one you must roll for blindness every time you save. No army wide LD10 and no ravenwing and terminators as scorring.

 

However you gained one STR (mace) blind and concussive.Ap2 against chaos, a blast template from the combi (if you take the relic if you dont you dont even reroll) and thats it.

 

Who won, who lost you decide. I for one if I decide I need an HQ that is not a libby or a chappy that needs to bash brains AND support the army know where to look.

 

I will repeat it again: The fact that AZ is making the RW and terminators troops doesnt mean that this is his primary function or that you need to build a list with bikes and terminators. Even a lonely RW squad if it is scorring can turn tables.

 

My 2c and humble opinion.

[Interrogator Stobz]

You feilded a Derpspeeder!!!? Even though you tabled him you auto lose and are to make yourself available for a dreadsocking at your earliest convienience.

Better luck next time Brother Immolator

s

I dont want to upset you but I replaced my vindicator to do so

You may find solace on the fact that I lost it (destroyed) durring the last round and that it was proxied by a nilla speeder.

But it had taken its toll by then, it was too little too late.

The very fact that you proxied it for a cooler model saves you from a Dreadsocking; the rules are merely ok, the model is a travesty and is to be publicly mocked at all times ;)

:D

stobz

Well done on the game!!!

[Upstartes]

I'm looking at different ways to use Azzy, and they almost all involve a power-armored command squad (or sometimes a veteran squad). The one that keeps appealing to me most is a drop pod command squad with another attached cheap libby and/or a techmarine. I feel like there is a lot of potential synergy: Azzy protects the squad with his 4++ from the hail of fire they are likely to endure the first round after emerging from the pod - an apothecary boosts survivability further. The squad can carry the chapter banner to beef Azzy in combat - or maybe the Standard of Fortitude if the pod is coming in with some deathwing nearby. Azzy will actually get to use his combi-weapon, since he can't charge anyway on that first turn. The command squad can be kitted up to either blast something to pieces when the pod hits, to be choppy for the following turn's assault, or just kept with CCW and bolt pistol to provide some ablative wounds and modest choppy - more than modest if Azzy takes the Furious Charge warlord trait.

 

I haven't had a chance to test this out, but hope to fit in a game next week. We'll see how it goes.

[Spaced Hulk]

Azrael is really useful now and there are some great reasons why he is worth taking. The points about how he does not work that impressively with Deathwing or Ravenwing are true but that by no means he shouldn't take them in a list led by him.

As some have pointed out, rites of battle has some good uses even for Deathwing and being about to take them as troops is a brilliant benefit to list selection as just about everything can be scoring if you wish. Azrael provides probably the most benefit to a regular tactical squad or veteran unit because of the lion helm but his raw killing power against anything with a 3+ save or worse makes him an excellent choice with any unit, terminators may not get much out of the lion helm but they certainly appreciate the reduction in attacks coming their way. I have also just started fielding Azrael with Ezekiel and they make an excellent pair. Ezekiel gets an invulnerable save (which he needs!) and your librarian is about as good as you could hope for. During a game it's easy enough to jump from unit to unit and if Azrael spends the opening turns getting a tactical squad up the field or stopping your devastators (or command squad) from getting blatted then it's all worthwhile use of him. Once the lines close you can afford to perhaps slide him into a different unit, Deathwing knights may not get any benefit from the lion helm but Azrael's attacks help keep the squad alive and will let it mince power armoured units as if they weren't there for likely little to no loss and Azrael really likes being toughness five to lessen the risk of instant death.

For me the key benefit Azrael brings if flexibility with your army, you can take almost anything. Even at 1500pts I managed to pair him with Ezekiel, two squads of deathwing (with assorted weaponry) a couple of tactical squads, devastators and a dreadnought. Not the most amazing force by any stretch but I had a lot of fun using it and it ended up slaughtering the Blood angels it went up against. I had no issues at all being able to claim objectives, the Deathwing provided a rock solid opening punch to force my opponent onto the back foot from the first turn and the devastators and tactical marines gave a bit of long range firepower to back them up too. Ezekiel added greatly to that with divination powers and overall the game played in an almost text book fashion. (For me anyway.)

Azrael in my mind works best in a fully mixed list, taking a squad or two of Deathwing and/or Ravenwing just as I would for a normal fully mixed list but they still have the benefit of being scoring. Azrael backs up the core marine element of the army with both combat punch and the invulnerable save of the lion helm meaning they can hang on a lot longer than one might expect.

In terms of general strategies I find it hard to sum up beyond what has already been said. We now have the ability to field a lot of viable and potent lists and that should make it hard to 'meta' against. Pure Deathwing and Ravenwing lists are potent, fragile and play in extremely aggressive fashions, regular greenwing is versatile if a little static and can pump out vast amounts of firepower now with the standard of devastation and mixed lists allow for a huge range of combinations.

I would like to add a point or two on command squads. Dark angels now have a huge range of choice with command squads ranging from the different unit options but also how you equip them. The ravenwing command squad is actually very cheap for what you get (if very fragile by itself) whist the Deathwing option is simply a great all-purpose hammer unit (albeit a bit limited by the squad size). The regular power armoured command squads are the most interesting though. You can go with the standards for a superb support and army amplifier unit, or an extra min-sized veteran unit with more options. Being able to take a special weapon on every model makes them a fantastically felxible and potent little choice for dealing with certain threats.

Excellent post Darkangeldentist. I agree that Azrael's biggest benefit is the flexibility he allows in choosing your army. Making DW & RW into Troops choices not only gives you some highly effective scoring units (from highly resilient 10 man terminator squads to dirt cheap 3 man meltagun turbo-boosters ) but also allows you to experiment with units that you might otherwise sideline in favour of our more characterful DW & RW options (Dreadnoughts, Speeders, Company Veterans etc).

One tactic I've been considering is Azrael attached to a large Company Vet squad, all armed with combi-plasmas and mounted in a Drop pod with a locator beacon. Backed up by a Terminator Librarian accompanied a DW Command Squad with the Standard of Devastation. Turn one, the drop pod comes in and the Vets & Az open fire with a plasma volley, with the Lion Helm to help protect them from enemy retaliation. Turn two, the Command squad teleports close by and the Vets & Az gain the benefit of the Devastation banner. You could also add other Drop pod units (Tactical squads etc) into the deployment to maximise the salvo bolters. I'm thinking it could be a more aggresive way of using the Standard of Devastation, without relying on Land Raider Crusaders or hiding behind a defense line and daring your opponant to advance into salvo range.

Obviously Azrael works best in higher points games where you can make the most of the flexibility he gives you. But the benefits he does provide are so substantial that when you get up to 2000 pts and more, I think he's almost an automatic choice.

[elphilo]

Why do you pps judge him on the so called fact that he must join ravenwing or terminator units since he unlocks them? Or that since he unlocks your list must comprise a deathraven build?

I judge him on that fact because I don't like playing Greenwing. My love is with the Deathwing. But if I want to run a dual wing list with multiple troop types its either taking him, or 2 HQs that cost almost double than Azreal. And if you only want to run Black & white, you're left with a guy who can't Deep Strike and can't ride a bike. So you have to buy another unit for him to go with. Which is usually power armored marines of some sort. In strictly the terms of taking him for a Dual Wing build, he is an oddity. The only way he isn't is if he's in a land raider with some Deathwing. And the cost of him and the land raider are well above the cost of just taking Belial and Sam.

 

While after reading this thread I would agree that his place is what march10k said. Put him with a gun line and use him as a counter charge unit. But personally I think that's wasting his DW/RW unlock.

[Drunkspleen]

 considering that the split fire test basically lets you not shoot your stormbolters at krak missile targets.  A few gratuitous boltgun shots will turn a game once a year, if you play every weekend.

 

You are taking far too narrow a view again, split fire isn't just about the damage of those storm bolters, it's about still being able to shoot the tank with your Cyclone when you are about to charge something else.

[march10k]

 

 considering that the split fire test basically lets you not shoot your stormbolters at krak missile targets.  A few gratuitous boltgun shots will turn a game once a year, if you play every weekend.

 

You are taking far too narrow a view again, split fire isn't just about the damage of those storm bolters, it's about still being able to shoot the tank with your Cyclone when you are about to charge something else.

Good point!  Nevertheless, the fact remains that Azzy is only helpful in allowing that krak missile salvo 1/12 of the time.  How often are you going to find yourself in the situation you described?  If it's once per game, Azzy's Rites of Battle help your termies once every 12 games!  My view isn't too narrow, my example was.

 

Ephilio,

 

Not playing green marines is a personal choice.  It may affect Azzy's usefulness and role for you, but that doesn't change anything about Azrael.  He's most useful leading a battle company based force.  Maybe with one or two black or white units. 

[Brom MKIV]

One thing to consider with azrael which I haven't seen mentioned is he limits troops slots. This seems nominal at first but it matters. 2 RAS 3 DW a tac squad and your done without really being able to capitalize on any one strength. Azrael precipitates a jack of all master of none army. His unlock looks good but its too much, unnecessary and in return we get an expensive infantry combat character which then wants a delivery method.

 

Sure you can choose to specialize instead of mix, say with straight tacs although at that point would a PFG Libby with Auspex etc be better at half the cost? How about 2 Libbys?

 

The other/similar issue is Double wing and mixed wing are now the weakest builds we have, largely by virtue of the nature of 6th edition but also by the nature of our codex, just IMO of course. Either way I feel Azrael has poor synergy with C:DA as a non-tda infantry combat character.

 

I like the GM but this is my view on his 40k rules.

[Slavik]

I know everyone's really pumped about Azzy but I would like to give a shout out to Belial.

 

We do not have a better force multiplier than a ten man terminator squad attached to Belial.  I have seen players setup their entire board in order to confront Belial.  It didn't matter.  Turn 1, Belial landed. They ran to spread out. The rest of the game was carnage as the squad ate through my opponent's defenses. Space Marines, IG, Necron; it makes no difference they all die.  The key is to put them near your opponent but not allowing all theit guns to be able to target the squad (I prefer near the edge so scatter shots can go off the table or onto my opponent's models.

[march10k]

 

One thing to consider with azrael which I haven't seen mentioned is he limits troops slots. This seems nominal at first but it matters. 2 RAS 3 DW a tac squad and your done without really being able to capitalize on any one strength. Azrael precipitates a jack of all master of none army. His unlock looks good but its too much, unnecessary and in return we get an expensive infantry combat character which then wants a delivery method. Except that he's a leadership character who happens to be good at combat, not the other way around.

Sure you can choose to specialize instead of mix, say with straight tacs although at that point would a PFG Libby with Auspex etc be better at half the cost? How about 2 Libbys? Um. No. A PFG libby has no Rites of Battle. You could pay 10 points per squad for LD9, which is not LD10...but that eats deeply into the points "saved" by taking the libby, and it leaves you with a combat weakling

The other/similar issue is Double wing and mixed wing are now the weakest builds we have, largely by virtue of the nature of 6th edition but also by the nature of our codex, just IMO of course. Either way I feel Azrael has poor synergy with C:DA as a non-tda infantry combat character. Again...not a combat character, a combat-capable character.

[Brother Immolator]

The very fact that you proxied it for a cooler model saves you from a Dreadsocking; the rules are merely ok, the model is a travesty and is to be publicly mocked at all times

stobz

Well done on the game!!!

Dreadsocking? Does that involve socks (I.E. the footwear?) I hope they are clean at least

Did I tell you that I cosider buying one at some point? The model has somehow grown on me and my GS fu is too week to build one.

Why do you pps judge him on the so called fact that he must join ravenwing or terminator units since he unlocks them? Or that since he unlocks your list must comprise a deathraven build?

I judge him on that fact because I don't like playing Greenwing. My love is with the Deathwing. But if I want to run a dual wing list with multiple troop types its either taking him, or 2 HQs that cost almost double than Azreal. And if you only want to run Black & white, you're left with a guy who can't Deep Strike and can't ride a bike. So you have to buy another unit for him to go with. Which is usually power armored marines of some sort. In strictly the terms of taking him for a Dual Wing build, he is an oddity. The only way he isn't is if he's in a land raider with some Deathwing. And the cost of him and the land raider are well above the cost of just taking Belial and Sam.

The point is you can do it, whereass in 4th you couldnt without fielding them both. Now you have spare change to deck him out with a command squad and a pod and let him do somedamage alongside your deathwing if you so wish. Its better to have options than not.

One thing to consider with azrael which I haven't seen mentioned is he limits troops slots. This seems nominal at first but it matters. 2 RAS 3 DW a tac squad and your done without really being able to capitalize on any one strength. Azrael precipitates a jack of all master of none army. His unlock looks good but its too much, unnecessary and in return we get an expensive infantry combat character which then wants a delivery method.

Sure you can choose to specialize instead of mix, say with straight tacs although at that point would a PFG Libby with Auspex etc be better at half the cost? How about 2 Libbys?

The other/similar issue is Double wing and mixed wing are now the weakest builds we have, largely by virtue of the nature of 6th edition but also by the nature of our codex, just IMO of course. Either way I feel Azrael has poor synergy with C:DA as a non-tda infantry combat character.

I like the GM but this is my view on his 40k rules.

I wonder what points games though will allow a death raven build that 5 troop choices are not enough. Had you invested in pure ravenwing (full man without upgrades) that counts as 20 ravenwing squads or ten terminators or mix thereoff. The mechanic is working as intended IMHO. If you were able to field an army of say 20 ravenwing squads all counting as troops there would be no hope for the enemy for winning ever as long as a single biker survived at the objective.

You would win linebraker and contesting as well as your own pbectives. Unless one couldnt work out his army well (due to inexperience or lack of tactics, that doesnt concearn us here) with the above ability its would be a 80-20 % probability for an unforgiven win in objectives missions.

In regards to blenderwing all I can say is that you are wildly missing the mark. Blenderwing is the most competitive build in the codex. You dont use the terminators and RW as a hard hitting force but as well oiled harssment / denyal / blunt force that supports the green marines holding objectives. Bikes were never intended to be more than support to the tac squads, the fact that ours have the option to do more is a blessing though.

My 2cents from my recent experience. Do get out of the 4th/5th mentality our tactics have changed m8ys And we dont play as codex marines either

EDIT: March10k asside from Belial and his fleshbane, Azrael is the best CC beast in our codex.

[facmanpob]

From my experiences playing a mixed wing against Chaos Marines I would say this:

 

In a mixed wing army 6 troop choices is more than enough. Mixed wing is where Deathwing Knights and Ravenwing Black Knights can be used to support scoring tactical squads, with the odd DWT/RAS squad (if they are unlocked as troops) to assist. Mixed wing is not about trying to cram in as many scoring units as possible into a list and then worrying because you've run out of slots. I know this because that is exactly what I tried to do and paid for it, where I should have either dropped the Terminators in favour of DW Knights, or just dropped the DW altogether and put more Greenwing or Ravenwing in, or vice versa. I defocused my list, and lost out because of it.

 

Which leads me nicely on to Azrael.

 

With Azrael unlocking DWT and RAS as troops, and providing a plethora of other special rules, I think there is a tendency to try to make as much use of those special rules as possible. So the danger is that Azrael is tacked on to a Dual-wing or Tri-wing list, just because he makes all of the DWT and RAS troops choices. Much more important is to look at the list and say, for example ...... "Do I need all of these to be troops? or am I better served by keeping the DWT as troops and swapping out the RAS for Black Knights.... in which case I'm better off taking Belial". The point is that focus must be maintained. If Belial is going to be your Warlord, focus is easier to maintain. The same for Sammael or a Divination libby with a gunline Greenwing list. But with Azrael potentially doing so much, its easy to become defocused in the search for a list which utilises every one of Azrael's special rules.

 

So my view with Azrael is that all of the special rules and buffs should be laid out on the table, and the the list designer cherry picks which ones will synergise with the list being designed, to see if Azrael is the best fit. If he is, take him. If not, look for another HQ.

 

Example of where this might occur:

 

I'm running Sammael to make Ravenwing troops, but want a Greenwing gunline with the SoD in the backfield. I'm also thinking of taking a Techmarine with a PFG to protect the Command Squad and banner........... or, maybe I should consider that Sammy and the Techmarine together are 65 points more than Azrael. Azrael will unlock the Ravenwing, and give 4++ to the Command Squad, and can also shoot forward from the Gunline and countercharge if the enemy get too close. Oh, and he will also give me Ld10 all round, so my whole army is much better at sticking around............ Maybe if I take Azrael I don't need a Techmarine, and if I take the "Hold at all costs" Warlord trait I can give him and the Command Squad FNP, thus saving points on an Apothecary.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Azrael IS the best choice in the example above - but its worth considering these options

;)

[Brother Immolator]

Nailed it! My complements to the gentleman above.

[Brom MKIV]

Ok so I wrote a huge post to address the responses to my earlier comments.. then erased it. Im not here to offend the fan following of azrael or "blenderwing". Instead I toss down the challenge glove (a friendly glove mind you).

 

I simply say prove it. If azraels "blenderwing" is the best build we have, please feel free to convince me! Id like to see a list that shows how good he and the blenderwing is and why azrael fits the bill better than sammael or belial or a libby would. If one stands out then perhaps it should be taken to a major event.

 

Not joking no sarcasm here, im honestly interested in seeing what people come up with. Hell I might end up taking one for a spin. So far I havent been able to construct an azrael list that doesnt jump through hoops for azreal or has any real motivation to include him..other than hes azrael. OR for allies but im speaking from codex DAs only.

[Brother Immolator]

Ok so I wrote a huge post to address the responses to my earlier comments.. then erased it. Im not here to offend the fan following of azrael or "blenderwing". Instead I toss down the challenge glove (a friendly glove mind you).

You are joking right? I am to thank for been friendly too? Well thank you...

Anyways pardon me but I am not picking your glove for three reasons:

1) I am not here to prove anything.

2) Judging from your responce there is no way to convince you on anything

3) Now its 1:20 AM.

Anyway considering my mood I might give you something tommorow.

If your first response to someones opinion is to writte a huge text containing offensies due to people stating their opinion and then erase it... Do not count on making a lot of friends with that altitude is all I have to say and dont expect people to take your 'challenges' on a serius note.

Quite the barky pps are gathering in the unforgiven as of lately...

EDIT: Make the reasons four, there is probably a continent deviding us from shorting this on the field

[Brom MKIV]

Quite the barky pps are gathering in the unforgiven as of lately...

Haha that was my sentiments exactly. Perhaps some things have been taken out of context all around eh? My last post was definitely taken the wrong way.

I erased my earlier post simply because I could see it sparking a long drawn discussion full of quotations that I really have no desire to pursue today. Instead I kept it simple and direct thinking maybe im missing something with azrael and another member can come up with something better than I have. Thus the "friendly" statement. (Until then I still maintain hes conflicted). Azraels cool, viable, powerful in combat and overall...balanced. Nothin wrong with that. But, IMO hes not the best we have in game terms.

If anyone holds any sentimental attachment to azrael then my apologies. To me this is just a game. Azrael just a potential resource. Thats it. Which is why I invited what I pictured as a list building exercise. If no one takes it up no biggy, but I havent seen any competitive lists under 2.5k with azrael that dont also include a blob squad. I havent been able to make one either. I dont think they exist. And lastly..

there is probably a continent deviding us from shorting this on the field

Yes! I would like nothing better. In fact I am eager to see how azraels army measures up. Unfortunately you are probably correct.

[Tiger9gamer]

I thought of a Standard of Ravenation list with azreal instead of sammuel. He unlocks a power armored command squad and sits with them in an LRC while so many bikes swoop in to crush the enemy. For in buildings objectives, Maybe take a Deathwing squad or a drop pod tactical squad. have to work out the points for this.

[march10k]

The clincher for me is this:  If your list has both ravenwing and deathwing in it, and no more than one tactical squad (potentially none!), you're forced to take Azzy, Sammy, or Bels as your HQ in order to have enough scoring units.  Ok, now...how many RASs and DWT squads do you have?  If either number is zero, then, if you're taking Azzy, it's not for the dual unlock, so you're taking him for...what? Rites of Battle isn't enough to justify the points increase over Sammy/Bels, especially when you consider what else the other two bring to the table (fleshbane, no scatter, TDA, in Bels's case).  So let's assume that you have at least one of each.  If it's just one of the lesser variety, is it really worth the points cost (and again, what you have to give up-and we're assuming that there's no added expense to give him a bodyguard unit, he'll just tag along with a unit that you'd otherwise be taking anyway) to make that one unit scoring?  And if you have, say two of each, plus some other stuff, your list has the variety of a chinese buffet, and your opponent will eat all he can for $7.99!

 

You don't need to unlock both troop types to play black/white.  Black knights synergize with the deathwing a lot better than RASs, and they can't be troops anyway.  On the other hand, yes, assaulty terminators (nobody's dumb enough to splash stormbolters into a ravenwing list) have similar potential to support a ravenwing list, as compared to deathwing knights, but do you really need them to score?  They're there to hack and slash, and probably die, so that your bikes might live...and the bikes are already scoring...and faster than hell, so they can swoop in from anywhere to score, as opposed to dropping in and then slogging around slowly.

 

Azrael unlocks both troop types.  Great.  If you're splashing either of them into a green list, fine, they're troops.  (actually, a scoring RAS or two in a green list is a great idea...lets you scatter the objectives to the four winds, which will bother your opponent more than you, since you can fight together, then scatter to claim them, while he is too slow for that!)  But that's just icing on the cake. Azzy's cake is Rites of Battle.

 

Yes, he's the second best character in the book when it comes to melee prowess...but this is the DA codex, not the BA one.  The only combat character we have is Belial.  He's clearly intended to drop in with a melee terminator unit of some sort and wreck face.  Azzy is a leader, not a fighter.  He just happens to be the most combat-capable non-combat character...unless you compare him to the bike interrogator with the mace...that guy's almost as good as belial!

[Brother Immolator]

Brom MKIV, no sentimental attachments, and I didnt say he is the best either.  I prefer my librarians for their utility. There are certain lists however where you can juice out his abilities to the point of him been the better choice vs something else. And that build usually revolves a mixture of deathraven  and greenwing elements around 200pts. And IMHO that is one of the best lists, Ill try to give you one for the arguements shake later when Ill finish painting my terminator libby for the challenge.

[Brom MKIV]

Cool I look forward to it, Ive been messing with a few again myself. The GM was actually the first guy I looked to when my book first arrived.

[Rikera]

Sorry to derail the topic from the HQ/Azrael discussion going on at the moment but i was wondering if you guys would mind talking flyers. I really love the nephilim model and im more than likely gonna buy it in the very near future.

 

Id like to hear everyone's thoughts on it (preferably people who have run it or field it alot). All over the internet people are talking rather negatively about it, bad mouthing it etc because they've read the codex info or using second hand information. Yes guard flyers are amazing and really cheap but i prefer not to compare it to what the other armies have such as c:sm or necrons etc.

 

Just a discussion on some of its aspects and how it can be useful. Maybe how nice the extra hullpoint is or the strafing without hovering? 

[march10k]

I prefer the dark talon...the hurribolters are excellent in my low-model-count DW force that really lacks horde control, and the stasis bomb is awesome for the turn that you charge your enemy's deathstar unit.  I'll grant you that the nephilim looks better...but 180 points for seven S6 shots?  C'mon, man!  That's barely more firepower than a chimera, and less, if you fire an autocannon from the hatch!

[Rikera]

I prefer the dark talon...the hurribolters are excellent in my low-model-count DW force that really lacks horde control, and the stasis bomb is awesome for the turn that you charge your enemy's deathstar unit.  I'll grant you that the nephilim looks better...but 180 points for seven S6 shots?  C'mon, man!  That's barely more firepower than a chimera, and less, if you fire an autocannon from the hatch!

Ill probably get a dark talon too. Hopefully (which im sure they will) the sprue's will let me model them with the nephilim's body but dark talon load out. Not a fan of the little dungeon prison strapped on its back lol.

[march10k]

I'm 90% certain that you'll be fine.  the areas where the weapons go seem to be identical, the only difference seems to be an alternate tail fin and the top part of the fuselage behind the cockpit, and there are no weapons in either place...