Land Raider. Dedicated or not.

[Pirog]

Had a discussion at my local club. I take no side in the arguments as I am a beginner (at least of DA and 6th), I mainly wanted your opinions so we could end this discussion we had.

It's regarding Land Raiders as transport.
To make a long question short. Is it possible, to buy a Land Raider in the Heavy Support slot and thereby don't have to pay the 30p for DW Vehicle but still have it transport Terminators or Knights?

One guys says Yes. But of course I lose the benefints of preferred enemy etc for the DW-Vehicle upgrade. And also, they have to start the game on the table. If they start in reserve, they counts as two seperate units when rolling for reserves.

 

The other says No. To be honest, he simply says no. Drew some paralell to "reality" that if this were RL, the dedicated transport (and thereby the DW Vehicle upgrade) represents the Land Raider being rebuilt to fit the knights.
 

To be honest I don't take his argument. The Land Raiders already have info on their transport capacity. If looking at it with an RL perspective I would rather see it as a dedicated Land Raider is... well, dedicated.  Fielding the transportet units heraldy, preferred weaponry and nude pinup posters on the inside.

If it's possible to take a Heavy Support slot Land Raider, without the upgrade to transport I would simply see that as the Land Raider being stationed closest to where the conflict happen to erupt or being the only one left in the garage or whatever.

 

So, simple question.

A Land Raider transporting Knights or Terminators, does it have to have the DW Vehicle upgrade?

[elphilo]

If you buy it as a Dedicated Transport for the Knights or Terminators, then yes it, MUST have the DW Vehicle option. If it is a dedicated transport for another squad, which I don't think anyone but the Terminators/Knights can get a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport (I could be wrong I'm not looking at my codex atm), then the only thing you have to adhere to is what it says in the BRB. That only the unit that the dedicated transport is bought for can start in it at deployment. After the game begin it can carry any friendly infantry unit (Page 78 bottom left of the BRB if you're curious). If you buy a Land Raider as a heavy option, then still yes, the Knights/Terminators can ride in it. And since it isn't a Dedicated Transport they can even be deployed in it. Though you are using a Heavy Slot choice to save 30 points.

[EPK]

As above. The simple answer is no you do not have to take the upgrade. It is always a transport vehicle regardless if dedicated or not.

 

Also, on reserves, the first person is a little off. Units in transports still enter together on one roll, it simply that they count as two when calculating the reserve cap. It's units in dedicated transports that only count as one towards the cap (pg. 124 of rule book). Regardless, if a unit is mounted in a transport, they come in in one roll.

 

The main benefit to DW vehicle upgrade is so you have room to max out your heavy slots with other options. If you aren't going to have them full, you can save 30 points and stick it in the heavy slot. Unless you really want that venerable status and PE:CSM.

 

On a side note, in the heavy slot LRs will be scoring in the Big Guns Never Tire mission which is a nice bonus (especially if the unit in them isn't scoring). As a dedicated transport, they would miss out on this.

 

And honestly, making a real life connection is a little silly but to me it makes more sense that anyone could use a LR - in fact it is a vehicle that has always specialized in transporting TDA in my mind.

[Bryan Blaire]

Is it possible, to buy a Land Raider in the Heavy Support slot and thereby don't have to pay the 30p for DW Vehicle but still have it transport Terminators or Knights?

 

So, simple question.

A Land Raider transporting Knights or Terminators, does it have to have the DW Vehicle upgrade?

Those are actually two separate questions.

 

To the first, to echo others: Of course it is possible to buy a Land Raider in the Heavy Support slot. It can then transport any squad on the table regardless of what upgrades you purchase or don't purchase for it. That's why it is in the Heavy Support slot. Who it transports after the game starts has zero bearing on options for the unit.

 

For the second question, similar answer, but different intent: If the Land Raider was purchased as a dedicated transport for the Knights or Terminators squad, then yes, it does have to be purchased with the upgrade and it doesn't take up a Heavy Support slot. If it is not purchased as a dedicated transport, then (as above) no, you don't have to buy the upgrade (although you still can), yes, it can still transport Knights or Terminators after it deploys on the table, and yes, it will take up a Heavy Support slot.

[Brother Immolator]

Simply put and with only a few words: Only deathwing can buy them dedicated (I.E. without taking a slot). If they do you MUST pay the DW vehicle upgrade.

If you take it as a HS choice you don't have to pay.

 

  My only skepticism is the fact one can argue that as is written,as an HS choice it cant be upgraded to DW vehicle. The way I understand it the DW vehicle is a dedicated vehicle upgrade only. Don't know if I missed a logic check though.

 

EDIT: Ignore my last rumbling It has been FAQed, it is an option for non dedicated ones too.

[Metheon]

Since the question have been answered I will derail the thread a bit regarding the fluff of the DW upgrade.

 

If a land raider is given the DW upgrade then it must be part of the 1st company right? That means that the marines inside it are 1st company too. Mixing rules and fluff you should be able to field 100 terminators (a full company) with a land raider per 5 terminators = 20 land raiders which I suppose is around 40 crew. That means you actually have 140 marines in the 1st company, excluding any commanding officers.

 

I don't know, it just doesn't make sense. A dreadnought I can understand - it being a dead guy from the 1st company. But a mighty terminator of the 1st legion being forced into power armour (or less?) simply to man a vehicle. Seems like an insult.

 

I'm not super strong with the fluff and such so maybe someone can clear this up for me. :)

[facmanpob]

Yeah but driving tanks is cool ..... I know, I've driven a Chieftan ..... so surely everyone would want to do it! :)

[Brother Immolator]

Assuming they are 100 and assuming all of them can be deployed mechanized. If we have 20 LR just for the deathwing...We should add to the plasm/bike/terminator theme, blitzkrieg as well.

[EPK]

Since the question have been answered I will derail the thread a bit regarding the fluff of the DW upgrade.

 

If a land raider is given the DW upgrade then it must be part of the 1st company right? That means that the marines inside it are 1st company too. Mixing rules and fluff you should be able to field 100 terminators (a full company) with a land raider per 5 terminators = 20 land raiders which I suppose is around 40 crew. That means you actually have 140 marines in the 1st company, excluding any commanding officers.

 

I don't know, it just doesn't make sense. A dreadnought I can understand - it being a dead guy from the 1st company. But a mighty terminator of the 1st legion being forced into power armour (or less?) simply to man a vehicle. Seems like an insult.

 

I'm not super strong with the fluff and such so maybe someone can clear this up for me. :)

The first tid bit I should note is that there is no longer a 100 marine cap to the 1st and 2nd companies per the new dex. Their numbers are simply "undisclosed".

 

On to your concern, if try are DW, which does make sense (though seconded tech marines is plausible) I do not see donning power armor as a negative step. Company masters do it and they were all DW once. Even Azrael wears power amor (per se) in a chapter known for its TDA.

 

If they need to wear power armor to crew the LR, so be it. Ravenwing apparently forgo their treasured bikes to pilot Dark Talons and speeders.

[Bryan Blaire]

Since the question have been answered I will derail the thread a bit regarding the fluff of the DW upgrade.

 

If a land raider is given the DW upgrade then it must be part of the 1st company right? That means that the marines inside it are 1st company too. Mixing rules and fluff you should be able to field 100 terminators (a full company) with a land raider per 5 terminators = 20 land raiders which I suppose is around 40 crew. That means you actually have 140 marines in the 1st company, excluding any commanding officers.

 

I don't know, it just doesn't make sense. A dreadnought I can understand - it being a dead guy from the 1st company. But a mighty terminator of the 1st legion being forced into power armour (or less?) simply to man a vehicle. Seems like an insult.

 

I'm not super strong with the fluff and such so maybe someone can clear this up for me. :)

Well, the new DA 'Dex says that the size of the DW and RW are undisclosed numbers, so the population may actually be higher than 140 members of the DW, possibly significantly higher. Also, you have to take into account squads that are undersized due to losses or purposefully kept less than 10 members so that they can use Crusaders or Redeemers, so possibly less drivers are needed.

 

Why would a Space Marine feel insulted by doing his duty? On top of that, a Land Raider is so much more powerful than a single Terminator suit, you can provide fire support for your Deathwing brothers as well as providing a means to cut off any fleeing foes, make sure your brothers get where they are needed, etc.

 

Edit: And :ph34r: 'd by EPK! :D

[Brother Immolator]

Arent vehicle crews tech adepts?

[Bryan Blaire]

Well, since they don't allow Techmarines to become members of the DW, I'm not sure they would risk needing to kill their drivers every single mission they take that might involve the Fallen, so I don't know that their drivers would be Techmarines. Guess some of it all just depends on how you look at it.

[Brother Immolator]

I dont think a tech adept is a techmarine. I always thout them as either apprentice tech marines (soon to be sent for training)or simply vehicle pilots. After all they cant facilitate repairs.

They do have the cog of the mechanicus on the shoulder pad and in most vehicles people paint their armor red too. It would make sense for the DW to have a specialised cadre of pilots though no?

[cielaq]

The age-old debate "Who drives Deathwing Land Raiders?" :)

Another possibility is that they use servitors - in many books servitors are used in similar way.

[EPK]

As above. The simple answer is no you do not have to take the upgrade. It is always a transport vehicle regardless if dedicated or not.

 

Also, on reserves, the first person is a little off. Units in transports still enter together on one roll, it simply that they count as two when calculating the reserve cap. It's units in dedicated transports that only count as one towards the cap (pg. 124 of rule book). Regardless, if a unit is mounted in a transport, they come in in one roll.

 

The main benefit to DW vehicle upgrade is so you have room to max out your heavy slots with other options. If you aren't going to have them full, you can save 30 points and stick it in the heavy slot. Unless you really want that venerable status and PE:CSM.

 

On a side note, in the heavy slot LRs will be scoring in the Big Guns Never Tire mission which is a nice bonus (especially if the unit in them isn't scoring). As a dedicated transport, they would miss out on this.

 

And honestly, making a real life connection is a little silly but to me it makes more sense that anyone could use a LR - in fact it is a vehicle that has always specialized in transporting TDA in my mind.

 

On a side note, thanks to another poster in a separate thread, I've just come to realize that Land Raiders can take the "Deathwing Vehicle" now and still be placed in the heavy slot per the FAQ.