help on deathwing terminator squads...

[tomsev]

are plasma cannons worth it in deathwing terminator squads or are they not worth it?

 

Im looking to take my 5 man (dark vengeance though no heavy weapon built) death wing terminator squad up to a 10 man squad with belail leading them and im looking for the best bodyguard so to speak... 

 

i already have 3th/ss, 3 powerfist storm bolters, 1 chain fist, 1 sergeant, 1 champion and belail SoS storm bolter.

 

i have 3 more bodies to add to this lot what should they be? i have the parts to build: 2 th/ss, 1 twin lightning claws, 3 powerfists, 1 chainfist, 2 assault cannons, 1 plasma cannon, 1 cyclone missile launcher and 1 heavy flamer.

 

these are all the termies in my army for now the the is ravenwing so this will be deep striked. should i make a command squad for belail and beef up the termies with whats left or max out a 10 man deathwing squad and just stick him in there?

 

thanks for taking the time to read this...

 

tomsev

[Asmodai's Joy]

My suggestion would be go with the command squad and procure a banner for your bits. Fortitude is probably the best bet, mechanically speaking, as many of the Ravenwing and Deathwing both are hard to kill, and FNP would just bolster that. However, if you feel you have your reasons not to, my suggestion would be put the cyclones in the bunch with the storm shields.

[Pirog]

I'm fielding a plasma cannon in one of my squads. Haven't tried it out yet but my tacticals with the cannon did well my last couple of games. And it's cool looking with a plasma cannon terminator so that's why I went with it.
Otherwise I would probably go assault cannon or cyclones. I would rather not put the cyclones on the th/ss tho as in case I needed to soak up a low ap shot I wouldn't want to lose the cyclone at the same time.

[tomsev]

so i should make a command squad for belail then what is the radius of that fnp banner??

[Pbenner]

The Standard of Fortitude is in your book.  Page 66 for Sacred Standards.  

 

I have found the command squad to be lack-luster so far.  I've ran only the Deathwing Company Standard, and I'm running 10 man squads.  

 

RIght now, I have two sqauds that are:

 

2x CML w/LC

4x TH//SS

3x LCs

1x SB + CF

 

These are 520 point squads, and the TH//SS should always be deployed facing your opponent's AP2 options IMO.  

 

I think right now our best bet is either 5 man, or 10 man squads, for heavy weapons purposes.  6-7 wouldn't be too bad, but we really need the Heavy Weapons.  I would always suggest atleast 1 CML, if not 2 in any army for the long range killing power.  

 

The Plasma Cannon is going to be hit or miss for me.  I'm going to build a few terminators with them to try them out, but I have a feeling that they'll be spotty with bad scatters...

 

Paul

[Metheon]

Depending on point size I think the plasma cannon have a place. It forces an opponent that is deepstriking a unit to either make a run move to spread out or risk getting the bulk of the unit killed by sweet plasma death. It will also be beneficial when you destroy a vehicle and the opponent disembarks. Then you have situations with small pieces of terrain with enemies inside it, either have the group hugged up having everyone get hit but everyone gets a cover save or spread out and have fewer marines hit but some without cover save.

 

So yeah, I think one have a place to keep the enemy on his toes. Maybe two if points are short. 

[facmanpob]

Here's an interesting synergy......

 

when using blast weapons or template weapons, you would always prefer your opponent to cluster his models together, to get the maximum number of bases under the effect of the blast weapon. However, when firing the RWGL, because you only have to hit 1 model for all models in the unit to be affected, you actually would prefer shooting at spread out units, so that you will have a good chance of hitting a model even if you scatter. So for that reason running plasma cannons and RWGL in the same army presents the opponent with a nice dilemma:

 

spread out and almost guarantee that the rad grenade will reduce toughness, or cluster together and present a nice target for that plasma cannon or heavy flamer toting Terminator! :)

[tomsev]

thats what i was thinking using the black knights GL to soften up enemy squads for blast template insta death... now i was thinking about the assault cannon with its higher rate of fire, but my hick is the ap4. i was thinking of 1 5man squad with plasma cannon and another one with either a heavy flamer, assault cannon or cyclone, maybe the cyclone to offer the plasma cannon some nice bunched squads after popping their transport, or should i leave transport popping to my multi melta attack bikes and put the assault cannon on them or should i just go double assault cannon on the 10 man squad, which does drop my ap down a bit... 

[Asmodai's Joy]

Here's an interesting synergy......

when using blast weapons or template weapons, you would always prefer your opponent to cluster his models together, to get the maximum number of bases under the effect of the blast weapon. However, when firing the RWGL, because you only have to hit 1 model for all models in the unit to be affected, you actually would prefer shooting at spread out units, so that you will have a good chance of hitting a model even if you scatter. So for that reason running plasma cannons and RWGL in the same army presents the opponent with a nice dilemma:

spread out and almost guarantee that the rad grenade will reduce toughness, or cluster together and present a nice target for that plasma cannon or heavy flamer toting Terminator!

The other nice thing about the Plasma Cannon/Grenade Launcher strategy is that you can keep both units mobile(as mobile as Termies get, at least) because of the sometimes forgotten relentless trait conferred by the Terminator armor. It literally becomes a you can run but you cannot hide scenario if executed well.

[elphilo]

Don't poo poo on the Assault Cannon. It's proven its worth multiple times to me. I always try to bring a lot, that rending is awesome :)

[Pbenner]

Well,

 

I like the Assault Cannon, I do, but it's not my go-to choice for my squads.  I've always been a CML guy personally, I like the range, I like the extra kill power.

 

I do run one regularly.  I really like the extra fire power it lays down in the short range fights.  I really prefer to deny the 3+ armor saves though.  Which I only have a 1-in-6 chance of doing per-wound with the Assault Cannon.  

 

CML is also more reliable against armor in my experience.  Those nice rending rolls  Str 6 + 6 + 3 are great, but unless you can hit them consistantly, they're going to struggle...

 

Paul

[tomsev]

well if this can help i have a small dark angels force that consists of the following: 1 RAS with multi melta attack bike and land speeder typhoon with multi melta, sammael, 4 black knights (1 with grenade launcher) , 1 dreadnought with close combat weapon built in heavy flamer and on the other arm assault cannon, plasma cannon or lascannon are available on him, now the terminators i have belail, 3 th/ss 2 power fists and storm bolters, 1 power fist (no right arm) 1 sarg with power sword, 1 champion and 2 more bodies with which i can do what i please. so can you lot point me in the direction...    

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

Tomsev,

 

Greetings. I don't get to play near as much as I'd like as I am away from home a lot lately however my two cents: Play test and see what works for you. I started DA because I thought Termi's were cool. Then I played against a regular opponent who was a veteran. He literally commented how he had never seen anyone make as many 2+ saves before regularly throughout our games. I therefore didn't hardly use any TH/SS set up in 5th. It worked for me however I never played in a hardcore tournie environment. Play test a few weapons and see what works for you. Assault Cannon is my baby. Love it and it rocks for me. There are of course days when the dice gods punish me and I can't even get one of my four Assault Cannon rounds to hit much less rend anything. Some love the CML but I didn't like the two shot wonder despite the range. I like the HF but it only works so so for me. Assault cannon seems to be my sweet spot. Even try it with just a few Patrol missions and see how it works out vs. a CML. Playtest is a godsend if you get the chance use it.

[Pbenner]

Champion is Command Squad only, and a DW Command Squad in small games will hinder your ability to perform in Objective missions, as it's a Denial unit and not a Scoring unit.  

 

I think you'd be better off re-making the Champion into a more standard guy.  What you lack right now is at-initiative power weapons in a standard unit.  I would make (3) Dual LC guys for the 3 attacks + Charge.  This is a 9 man unit, so you could get another heavy weapon when you added a 10th man.  A Chainfist wouldn't be bad either incase you have to take out AV14.

 

Paul

[tomsev]

sorry i forgot to say i had 2 chainfist im stading in at 12 terminators (including belail and champion)

[Pbenner]

What is the squad doing in your army currently?  Looks like you play with all three wings, so is it a vanguard unit, dropping in early game to attempt to disrupt opponent plans, or are you foot slogging to act as a hammer once you have an anvil unit in place?

 

This would be helpful information...

 

Paul

[tomsev]

dropping in to assist my black knights in combat or the RAS if they need it... and i was wanting to run dual wing no green wing, just elite bikers and terminators...

[Pbenner]

Then you want to run as much shooting as possible to take advantage of the whole Twin-Linked on the assault turn.  They can really soften up a target on that first turn.  You're not so much in need of CMLs if the squad is Deep-striking and comes in without scatter, as you can gaurentee range.  

 

Would probably go:

 

2x Assault Cannons // Power Fist

2x Stormbolters // Chainfist

1x Stormbolter // Powersword

2x Lightning Claws

3x Thunderhammer // Stormshields

 

This would be one scary unit coming down on Turn 1 or Turn 2, depending on who you're playing and how they deploy.  Just face your Thunderhammers towards his AP2 weaponry to help with the Shields.

 

Best,

 

Paul

[Pbenner]

The reason I say Assault Cannons over CML in this case is also the whole Overwatch thing.  If he opts to assault you, volume of fire becomes important, and then he's probably going to be broken by the time I1 rolls around.  Not much will want to assault you, so you can bully him around the board for a turn or two...

 

Paul

[tomsev]

i can do all of that apart from 1 of the 2 lightning claws... 

but yeah you got the idea i want a scary  unit droppping out of the sky and with belail in it i can put i where i want...

[keeper of the dark]

I always go with the CML. Now with no scatter on Belial + Split fire + Vengeful strike my 5 man termie squad is:

1CML/CF/Stormbolter (since they stopped you using th+ss).

2TH/SS

1SB/PS

1SB/PS

They are backed by a tactical in a drop pod with melta gun +combi melta so I drop that first near 1 tank, then with Belial deep strike behind any tank other/the same one if it MUST die then split fire the CML at the tank and the others at whoever might be a threat. Belials 5+ precision shots help too, but with the pod the enemy has to decide what to kill and usually the Termies survive quite a while.

I have also had Libby in the squad with power field to get a 4++ & Prescience which caused a lot of devastation but does take the cost up to 500pts for 7guys which is a massive fire magnet.

[tomsev]

2 power swords? im wanting a big bang first turn slap with this squad coming in that with my black knights and RAS with sammael attached is flying towards them...

[Pbenner]

The post above has some pretty bad advice.

 

One, you can take CML with TH//SS, its pretty much RAW. You can also take CML with dual LCs.

 

Two, only the sarge can have a Powersword, so one per unit.

 

You want enough attacks at initiative to blow through some of his army early on, then enough at I1 to knock him down weak. You want to finish the combat on his turn so you can avoid fire and still get the next assault in.

 

Paul

[Pbenner]

The post above has some pretty bad advice.

 

One, you can take CML with TH//SS, its pretty much RAW. You can also take CML with dual LCs.

 

Two, only the sarge can have a Powersword, so one per unit.

 

You want enough attacks at initiative to blow through some of his army early on, then enough at I1 to knock him down weak. You want to finish the combat on his turn so you can avoid fire and still get the next assault in.

 

Paul

[TheForgottenAngel]

Then you want to run as much shooting as possible to take advantage of the whole Twin-Linked on the assault turn.  They can really soften up a target on that first turn.  You're not so much in need of CMLs if the squad is Deep-striking and comes in without scatter, as you can gaurentee range.  

 

Would probably go:

 

2x Assault Cannons // Power Fist

2x Stormbolters // Chainfist

1x Stormbolter // Powersword

2x Lightning Claws

3x Thunderhammer // Stormshields

 

This would be one scary unit coming down on Turn 1 or Turn 2, depending on who you're playing and how they deploy.  Just face your Thunderhammers towards his AP2 weaponry to help with the Shields.

 

Best,

 

Paul

100% this, I have used this exact setup to great effect, putting out lots of wounds, taking hits the following shooting and assaulting phase, and allowing my predominately Ravenwing force to clean up the rest of the board since his heavy weapons and anti TEQ are focusing on this unit HARD. Essentially for two turns you are inflicting lots of pain. Also think of the Powersword Sarge as challenge punching bag. The rest of the unit is more than capable of dealing with anything else.