dswanick Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 So I've been contemplating the Space Wolves ability to counter Flyers(without resorting to Allies). Up until now, my usual approach has been an ADL with Quadgun (100pts) manned by one of my Long Fangs units (2X Lascannons, 3X Missile Launchers, PAWGPL w/ BP&CCW, 188pts). And, while it has done a decent job, it is vulnerable (especially now that some of my usual opponents have "discovered" Baleflamer-armed Helldrakes). So I've been considering some alternatives and would like some thoughts. 1} Pack Leader (my usual approach) Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, CCW Pros: - 18pts - Adds a small amount of CC protection to his pack. Cons: - Requires a pack to attach to. Commonly I use a 6-man Long Fang pack w/ 2X Las, 3X ML (170pts), allowing him to split his fire. - Susceptible to Baleflamer. 2} Pack Leader TDA, Storm Bolter, Power Sword Pros: - 33pts - Adds some durability (CC & 2+/5++) to his pack. - Gets an armor save vs Baleflamer (but only if Random Allocation favors me) - Can take Storm Shield, MotW, CML/AssCannon. Cons: - Same as PAWGPL, except being susceptible to Baleflamer 3} Lone Wolf (especially liking this option in lower points games) Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, CCW Pros: - 20pts - Does not require a Pack to attach to - Precision Shot, 2 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, A Glorious Death Cons: - Single model - Still susceptible to Baleflamer, but more durable. 4} Lone Wolf (the Cadillac-plan option) TDA, Combi-flamer, Storm Shield, Mark of the Wulfen, 2X Fen.Wolves Pros: - All the pros listed above except cost. - Would anyone want to charge him? The T7/2W/3+ gun now becomes the more vulnerable shooting target. - Laughs in the face of Baleflamer (2+ save, FNP, 2W) before pumping Helldrake full of Autocannon fire. Cons: - 100pts, doubles the cost of the ADL and gun. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksad Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 the packleader does not really need a pack to attach to now does he? if you have a unit of 3 WG, 2 of which join a pack, the 3rd one is a 1man pack, capable of using the turret... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298128 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 the packleader does not really need a pack to attach to now does he? if you have a unit of 3 WG, 2 of which join a pack, the 3rd one is a 1man pack, capable of using the turret...That would be true, except I also run a 3-man TDA Drop Pod group out of that Wolf Guard pack. So he does need a pack to attached to. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwolfalpha Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I have had a very similar problem as I play alot of IG and CSM. I have found that the ADL works well vs IG, but the damn dragon just violates my backfield. I have wanted to try an Iron Priest and 1-2 big gun Dreadnoughts for behind my line, its a bit pricey, but very survivable vs the baleflamer. I dont have an Iron Priest, so I have yet to try it. Personally, I find Helldrakes to be a bit overpowered. I immobilized one first turn and it still was able to vectorstrike a Vindicator to death, and flame a pack of GH. How can something immobilized swoop down and tare a tank in half, breath fire and contunie to fly? Its immobilized... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298357 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwolfalpha Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Sorry brothers, I need to get this out of my system. They had an errata to make the baleflamer better, it is no longer hullmounted. It can fire in all directions. Why GW, why? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 Because GW really, really wants to sell them. Well, thats why the heldrake is what it is (I've heard Phil Kelley's gone on record somewhere saying that models are sculpted first, and then codex writers are told to make them awesome). Why that stupid unnesacary power buff? I dunno. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298433 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 Why that stupid unnesacary power buff? I dunno. Because GW really, really wants to sell them. So back on topic - what do you guys think about the cost of TDA v protection against AP3? Worth it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I never thought of putting a Lone Wolf in the Defence Line. That's an interesting idea. I may have to play test it some. Of course, the Iron Priest could as well. I don't have my codex nearby, but isn't he equipped with Runic Armor? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298466 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 I never thought of putting a Lone Wolf in the Defence Line. That's an interesting idea. I may have to play test it some. Of course, the Iron Priest could as well. I don't have my codex nearby, but isn't he equipped with Runic Armor?He is but for 5pts less (and the risk of losing a Victory Point if he survives) you get the TDA 5++ and the Lone Wolf's +1W, FNP, and EW. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimfoe Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 I would guess you'd want an "all comers" list. In which case you may want a Lone Wolf in that list. This would allow you to throw him in defence line, if you're facing chaos, but use Long Fangs against other flyers. I'll probably start experimenting with something similar. Looking at the Iron Priest, he's not a good option. Too many points. I guess the key is to figure out what you want in your army. We're pretty versatile, so there may be different troops manning your cannons against different foes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonarmy Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 my way of keeping the quad gun shooting is using a rune priest in runic armour. I have never played against helldrake though, only imperial Flyers, so i am always getting a cover save. The 120pts is well spent because it allows for the addition of psychic powers (in my case divination), whilst still keeping the ability to shoot the quad gun. also boosts the leadership of the squad up to 10 so less chance of running away. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298496 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squark Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 my way of keeping the quad gun shooting is using a rune priest in runic armour. I have never played against helldrake though, only imperial Flyers, so i am always getting a cover save. The 120pts is well spent because it allows for the addition of psychic powers (in my case divination), whilst still keeping the ability to shoot the quad gun. also boosts the leadership of the squad up to 10 so less chance of running away. Not a bad idea at all. Maintains the ability to split fire with the pack leader (So you can have the Rune Priest shoot a flier while the Long Fangs crack tanks), and you've effectively given the rune Priest Living Lightning back (Which mine was really lamenting the loss of). Keeping a Lone wolf in TDa to man the gun seems like a good idea in the event of heldrakes, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298517 Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonarmy Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 yeah the lone wolf is an interesting one. the LW would also be a great asset should someone decide to drop pod a unit of stern guard or something similar into your back field. in CC we can deal with them quite easily. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
montegue Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 So, yesterday, I got my first taste of what double helldrakes is like for Space Wolves. I *don't* own an Aegis Defense line, so I'm just rocking two packs of Longfangs and hoping for the best. In the first game, I got lucky. A last second plasma and missile shot took down both Helldrakes before they could completely clear my backfield. literally, my opponent could have fielded *only* the Helldrakes, and would have systematically destroyed my entire army in the course of 2-3 turns. It's *insane*. S7 AP3, ignores cover, 12" reach, and place the template in any direction? For less than 150pts? SERIOUSLY? This model will ruin this game. There is no reason to play anything other than an army that can take 1, 2, or even 3 of these. Also, they're fast attack. My second time against them, they wiped me out to a man. My third game, I got an idea. And it made me rethink my approach. Maybe we don't need skyfire at all. Maybe we need to be Space Wolves. So here't the thought - 1 Group of 9 Gray Hunters 1 Group of 10, Drop Pod 1 Group of 10, Drop Pod 1 Group of heavy hitting Terminators, Drop Pod. Storm Shields, Combi Meltas, Frost Blades or Frost Axes, or even Thunder Hammers or Power fists, etc. Hell, melta bombs and the standard loadout would work fine. 1 Wolf Star - 5 Thunder Wolf Cav, several with Storm Shields, accompanied by your Wolf Lord. 1 Wolf Priest on Thunder Wolf, all the fixins 1 Rune Priest in TDA Armor who goes in the Drop pod with the Terminators. Take one WGT out, use him as the bulwark against the Helldrake's Breath Weapon on your 9-man home objective holding unit. Everything else drops in or charges into close combat immediately. The Rune Priest can buff from the front lines (not sure what psychic powers to take, to be honest. Divination is great for rerolls and invulnerable saves, BioMancy has excellent killing and personal buffs...not sure what would be best). The Tunder Wolf Cav can charge on turn one if the enemy deploys anything at the 12" line. With 5 of them, the Lord, and two Fenrisian ablative wounds, they will get into combat largely unscathed barring bad luck. And in close combat, the hell drake is irrelevant, and they are smashing face. Even if the helldrake comes to get them after they slaughter a unit, the 3+ storm shield save plus the Lord's 2+ armor save should prevent dissaster. Two of the Pods should hit on turn one, if I am reading the rules right. So, the Terminators hit the ground next to the Gray Hunters, who unload into Armor or an enemy unit on an objective. Wolf Guard terminators then hold the objective as denial while the Gray Hunters stay in combat as best they can. Second Gray hunter group comes down, depending on need. Did the Home Squad get wiped out? Ok, drop there, take the objective back. Need more support for the Thunder Wolves, or something pick off secondary objectives? They're perfect for that. This gives up heavy weapons - las cannons, missile launchers, and makes your melee guys the heavy weapons. Every squad is fully capable of bringing down armor (with power fists, terminator melee weapons, metla bombs, etc). Every squad gets into position quickly, and every squad is a threat. And best of all, the Helldrakes don't have any really great targets. The one they do have has a decent enough armor save to hopefully prevent disaster. It's the best thing I can come up with without playing at 100 points down plus a defense line that *might* penetrate and bring it down before everyone inside it is wiped out to a flame template from hell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdall Skullcrusher Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 3} Lone Wolf (especially liking this option in lower points games) Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, CCW Pros: - 20pts - Does not require a Pack to attach to - Precision Shot, 2 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, A Glorious Death Cons: - Single model - Still susceptible to Baleflamer, but more durable. Lone Wolves also have Beast Slayer which could be beneficial with Flying Monstrous Creatures like Demon Princes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 3} Lone Wolf (especially liking this option in lower points games) Power Armor, Bolt Pistol, CCW Pros: - 20pts - Does not require a Pack to attach to - Precision Shot, 2 Wounds, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, A Glorious Death Cons: - Single model - Still susceptible to Baleflamer, but more durable. Lone Wolves also have Beast Slayer which could be beneficial with Flying Monstrous Creatures like Demon Princes. The Quadgun is already Twin-linked, rendering Beast Slayer useless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298817 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Couple of things: 1) Can't your opponent just target the quad gun anyway (probably wouldn't choose to do this with the template weapon, but a few missiles should take it out pretty quickly) 2) You don't want to take allies. Fair enough... I didn't see anything mentioned about Forge World in general, though... would you consider those? Hyperios weapon platforms? So, so awesome. The only thing that I dislike about them is that they take up a fast attack slot, and personally I'm drawn to many of the other fast attack options. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298848 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Couple of things: 1) Can't your opponent just target the quad gun anyway (probably wouldn't choose to do this with the template weapon, but a few missiles should take it out pretty quickly) Sure, statistically 9 Missile Launcher shots will kill a Quadgun. But that's a lot of firepower not devoted to killing my other vehicles. And it just leaves the model manning it to go do something else.2) You don't want to take allies. Fair enough... I didn't see anything mentioned about Forge World in general, though... would you consider those? Hyperios weapon platforms? So, so awesome. The only thing that I dislike about them is that they take up a fast attack slot, and personally I'm drawn to many of the other fast attack options.I use the Hyperios Launchers regularly (my group doesn't have many anti-FW players), but I was considering the base available units for those times/places were FW isn't appropriate. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeletoro Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Yeah, fair enough. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298856 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evilmerlin Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 My area has been testing a 0-1 Forgeworld choice and now a good number of Marine players have taken to fielding the Hyperios. 140pts for 4 Skyfire Interceptor Twinlinked Krak missiles. And no requirements to have a guy manning it. Top choice for an anti-air option if you can use it. If you find the cost of the buying the actual Forgeworld models prohibitive, there are quite a few 3rd party ones around which are pretty damn solid as Hyperios stand ins but without the price tag too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298889 Share on other sites More sharing options...
parabelumwolf Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 on your long fangs change one of or both of your lascannons to multi meltas, little higher cost but great anti-everything Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298896 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 on your long fangs change one of or both of your lascannons to multi meltas, little higher cost but great anti-everythingExcept, of course, 48" range. This thread isn't about the Long Fangs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwolfalpha Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 The problem with the defense line vs a baleflamer is that the wall is pointless. Also, the vector stike may be able to tear apart the stationary gun then flame anything inside. I like the Dreadnought behind the line, 12 armour and a 4+ cover has done very well for me and having the Iron Priest to fix it up seems like a good idea, but it is quite a point sink to stop flyers. How often are people seeing flyers in their games? I cant remember the last time I didn't have to worry about one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3298947 Share on other sites More sharing options...
toonarmy Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 The problem with the defense line vs a baleflamer is that the wall is pointless. Also, the vector stike may be able to tear apart the stationary gun then flame anything inside. I like the Dreadnought behind the line, 12 armour and a 4+ cover has done very well for me and having the Iron Priest to fix it up seems like a good idea, but it is quite a point sink to stop flyers. How often are people seeing flyers in their games? I cant remember the last time I didn't have to worry about one. How reliable is it at stopping flyers anyway? it doesn't have skyfire! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3299093 Share on other sites More sharing options...
dswanick Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 The problem with the defense line vs a baleflamer is that the wall is pointless. Also, the vector stike may be able to tear apart the stationary gun then flame anything inside. I like the Dreadnought behind the line, 12 armour and a 4+ cover has done very well for me and having the Iron Priest to fix it up seems like a good idea, but it is quite a point sink to stop flyers. How often are people seeing flyers in their games? I cant remember the last time I didn't have to worry about one. Well, the ADL isn't just there for the Quadgun. It's also there fore my Long Fangs with Lascannons and Missile Launchers, and sometimes for one of my 5-man Grey Hunter packs to camp an Objective as the need arises. How reliable is it at stopping flyers anyway? it doesn't have skyfire! A Helldrake can reliably ignore a 2X TLAC Dreadnought without Skyfire due to its AV12/Daemonic 5++/It Will Not Die. Darn, this new software has some problems with its multi-quote feature. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270775-space-wolves-vs-flyers/#findComment-3299107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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