Squandered Resources

[Wade Garrett]

I just finished reading the new Space Marine Battles book, Siege of Castellax, and I have to ask:

 

Fellow devotees of the Hidden Gods, why are we such terrible bosses?

 

Yes, yes, the puling mortal worms serve us as laborers and fodder solely out of greed and fear, and of course the Powers require sacrifices, but many of our actions towards our human slaves are just wasteful.

 

Starving them, killing and torturing them at random, these actions HARM the cause of Chaos in the long run. Strong slaves do much work, weak slaves do little, and dead slaves do none.

 

And that's just the workers, the waste of cult fodder is even more deplorable. Orlock Glaur's Blood Pact and the Alpha Legion's operatives have demonstrated time and again what well trained and equipped mortal forces can accomplish.

 

Yet fools like Dark Apostle Marduke of the Word Bearers waste these servants of Chaos, commanding them to march unarmed in front of their squads, lest lasgun fire mar the paint job of the True Astartes.

 

So what if each mortal maggot is worth less than a bolt round? Would you fire your bolster into the air or at a steel wall for no reason but your own amusement?

[Kol Saresk]

Don't forget the Sons of Sek. ;) But ultimately, the Chaos Followers don't care because the Chaos Gods don't care. Every death, whether it is that of a follower or an enemy serves to make the Gods stronger. The Servants of Ruin follow only one rule: The Strong will survive while the Weak will perish.

 

As a result, the slaves are forced into situations where only the strong will survive, and from there, those strong slaves have a chance to become Champions of Chaos in their own right, or die. Look at Dark Apostle. That one slave was blessed by the Ghemnet and was given a chance to rise to a higher calling. But alas, he refused and died as punishment by his own hand.

 

The weak will always perish, but at least as slaves and cannon fodder, they die with purpose.

[the jeske]

chaos gods care very much . for example nurgle unchanging unend pain and suffering fuels him , no hope fuels him . random , erratic torture of slaves is change , the hope of that slaves that this day it may not be their turn , fuels tzeench. just killing fuels khorn . the more and over the top the torture is the more slanesh is fueled.

 

For the marine overlords it isnt different if they are marked . If they arent , they technicly could care , if the whole sm culture wasnt build on being above normal mortal . as long as the task is done they will not care , what is happening to the slaves. this explains why they treat mortal sorc or navigators better. it is not because they see them as having a higher status , it is just that a beaten and hungry navigator works a lot less efficient then a fed one.

 

ah and as the long run goes . if it wasnt for tyranids or necron chaos would be a clear winer already . emotions fuel the chaos gods and until men exist the warp will not go quite .

[Iron_Within]

The Siege of Castellax characters are terrible bosses for several reasons. 1) most of them are completely insane, Algol is insane even by the Iron Warrior standard. 2) they have an endless supply of slave fodder, and in fact the death of slaves is necessary to fuel production, So only optimal standards will do. 3) Different slaves are treat at different standards, not including Algol, the human soldiers were treated a bit better than the slaves 4) Even for Chaos Space Marines, Iron Warriors are known for hatred and bitterness and cruelty.

 

You have to consider the psychology of a Space Marine. They are not human, they do not have human psychology, their basic drives are different; they do not need food or drink or to procreate the way we do. Their need for social belonging is inflated however in most cases, they have a need to belong it seems. They also have a basic drive for violence, it's not an fight or flight response, its a basic need like food or drink, they also have an inflated childlike need for victory. They are incredibly emotionally stunted; I personally always view them emotionally as children, they never truly went through puberty so never evolved beyond that. Then throw the Iron Warriors into the mix. Their specific quirks is that they are very intelligent and paranoid. They don't like being around each other but need to be. They have no moderating factors of need to end their anger and bitterness so it spirals beyond that of human comprehension. They are megalomaniac's, socio-paths and psychopaths by human standards before they fall to chaos. Their arrogance is heightened a thousand-fold, the big bully on the yard who genuinely is stronger, faster and smarter. In short they are completely insane and goal driven, an individual slaves life does not figure into their modus operandi and is expendable, which is the same for all Space Marines loyal or traitor, the Ultramarines will not hesitate to kill civilians should the need arise, it's just that their goals are different, and they are not "Space Marine crazy", just regular old crazy for us mortals.

[Nehekhare]

Please keep in mind the following is written from the fictional and very deranged perspective of the Iron Warriors:

 

It's not in any way squandering ressources...it is simply the most efficient way of managing this particular, nearly infinite ressource in relation to other, scarcer ressources like food & water, technology and leadership.

There are always enough slaves (humans breed by themselves!). But to function properly, they need to be fed (soylent green is people!), equipped (with tools produced by slaves) and, last but not least - terrorized into lasting submission (by exemplary slaughter). Nobody wants the herd to rise above their station, thus they need to be culled.

Obedience. Labour. Fidelity.

[*Furyou Miko]

If they weren't pathetically weak and deserving of death, they would show some proper Chaos fortitude and find a way to escape or beat their way out of their suffering.

 

That's how we of the Order of Dusk came about, after all. For centuries we languished as slaves to the false Emperor, until the Magistra rose up and taught us the ways of the Changer.

[Lepaca]

Please keep in mind the following is written from the fictional and very deranged perspective of the Iron Warriors:

 

It's not in any way squandering ressources...it is simply the most efficient way of managing this particular, nearly infinite ressource in relation to other, scarcer ressources like food & water, technology and leadership.

There are always enough slaves (humans breed by themselves!). But to function properly, they need to be fed (soylent green is people!), equipped (with tools produced by slaves) and, last but not least - terrorized into lasting submission (by exemplary slaughter). Nobody wants the herd to rise above their station, thus they need to be culled.

Obedience. Labour. Fidelity.

 

I also think that the 40k universe works on this premise eventhough this might seem unrealistic to us as humans tend to not be the most plentiful ressource in reality.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that in 40k they have the technology to grow them in test-tubes by the dozen and there are literally billions upon billions of them spread out throughout hundreds of worlds and artificial shelters such as ships or orbital platforms. So the premise does work.

[Lepaca]

Except that in 40k they have the technology to grow them in test-tubes by the dozen and there are literally billions upon billions of them spread out throughout hundreds of worlds and artificial shelters such as ships or orbital platforms. So the premise does work.

 

Yes certainly! I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't. Just wanted to point out why it might seem counter-intuitive at first. ;)

 

Btw does mass cloning ever come up in 40k? I was thinking of having my warband use only clones as aspirants and wondered if that might be too far fetched.

[*Furyou Miko]

The Dark Eldar do it all the time - Anything that's not a Kabbalite Trueborn or Character (above squad leader rank) is probably a clone.

 

The Afriel Strain was an attempt to create an army of clones of great Imperial heroes that kind of went flop. The clones were perfectly adequate, but they showed none of the incredible greatness of, say, Macharius or Thor.

[Chronotonic]

the Iron Warriors did the cloning thing when Uriel Ventrus hit the home world got taken by the Iron Warriors cloned...then that clone was used to help attack the Ultramarines...

[Wade Garrett]

Likewise written from perspective of a spiteful, murderous Traitor Marine:

 

Ingrates! By heedlessly butchering the slave stock, you waste our most precious resource:

Time! Do you think the Flesh emerges from the iron wombs fully grown, cognizant of all it needs to fufill its tasks?

 

It takes time to train them, time to teach them, and when you destroy useful Flesh because you cannot rein in your own emotions that time was wasted.

 

Cull the weak, sick, or rebellious, yes, a fine thing. But what fool breaks a useful tool, no matter how humble? Such stupidity...go rut with Fulgrim's mongrels or scream with Angron's beasts. We are the IV Legion, and WE have standards!

[Vesper]

Join the Black Legion. We are awesome.

Problem solved.

[RolandTHTG]

Except that in 40k they have the technology to grow them in test-tubes by the dozen and there are literally billions upon billions of them spread out throughout hundreds of worlds and artificial shelters such as ships or orbital platforms. So the premise does work.

Yes certainly! I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't. Just wanted to point out why it might seem counter-intuitive at first.

Btw does mass cloning ever come up in 40k? I was thinking of having my warband use only clones as aspirants and wondered if that might be too far fetched.

The Death Korps of Kreig are implied to use mass cloning. Part of the reason they use attrition tactics - they're soldiers ARE produced from factories same as the bullets and tanks.

[Nehekhare]

what fool breaks a useful tool?

It seems Brother Garrett suffern from a debilitating from of affection and keeps his humans like pets! The Flesh is only useful if molded into a form, and even then it is the most brittle of materials. It is to be kept bleeding so it remembers who are its masters. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

Except that in 40k they have the technology to grow them in test-tubes by the dozen and there are literally billions upon billions of them spread out throughout hundreds of worlds and artificial shelters such as ships or orbital platforms. So the premise does work.

Yes certainly! I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't. Just wanted to point out why it might seem counter-intuitive at first. ;)

 

Btw does mass cloning ever come up in 40k? I was thinking of having my warband use only clones as aspirants and wondered if that might be too far fetched.

Apologies, I was merely trying to reinforce your point was all.

 

Hmm, the closest I know of clones being used was in the short story about the Loyalist Iron Warrior. He had those special warriors that were vat-grown using his DNA.

 

But if my understanding of the technology is correct, it isn't exactly cloning so much as taking the Y chromosome from a chosen male subject and is then put into either a random female X chromosome or an artificial X chromosome and the resulting embryo is then genetically manipulated in order to cultivate the desired traits with possible enhancements being added later. As far as I understand it.

 

To my knowledge, the only clones to have actually existed are the clones of Horus and the Blood Angels clones from James Swallows' BA series.

 

But as Furyou Miko pointed out, it is commonplace amongst the Dark Eldar and it does seem that apparently there are Imperial Forces that use cloning although whether it is cloning or merely artificial incubation... Well I do not know the difference.

 

@Capitano: The Newborn was not a clone of Uriel Ventris. The Newborn was a child-slave that had been taken from an unknown Schola Progenium that had been put inside the daemoncubala that Uriel Ventris was put in. Ventris' DNA and physical anatomy were used as a blueprint to show the daemoncubala how to integrate the gene-seed with the Newborn's body. It's all in The Chapter's Due. That's why Ventris kept having memories about a Schola being attacked and the boy's memories of his time in slavery before he had been put into the daemoncubala.

[Visitor13]

"Strong slaves do much work, weak slaves do little, and dead slaves do none."

 

Strong slaves may try something stupid.

 

Weak slaves will not; they will do as they're told.

 

Dead slaves will feed the living ones.

 

As long as there's enough of them, there's no harm to the Gods' plans in breaking them. Quantity has a quality of its own.

 

 

 

[Wade Garrett]

 

It seems Brother Garrett suffern from a debilitating from of affection and keeps his humans like pets! The Flesh is only useful if molded into a form, and even then it is the most brittle of materials. It is to be kept bleeding so it remembers who are its masters. 

 

It's always this way...at first. Only later does it turn into:

"Brother Garrett, the countermines are not complete because a plague broke out amongst the starving, naked mortals that were supposed to be digging them."

 

"Brother Garrett, I slit my artificers's throat because he told me it would take him two days to fully repair my war plate, may I borrow yours?"

 

"Brother Garrett, my squad's Land Raider is still damaged from the last battle because one of the slaves charged with fixing it looked at me with both eyes simaltaneously, so I set the entire work crew on fire. How are we to reach the enemy lines for the main assault?"

 

You mistake pragmatism for compassion.

[Kol Saresk]

You mistake pragmatism for compassion.

Hear, hear!

[Wade Garrett]

Out of character:

 

Now, of course the Chaos Space Marines are going to have leaders who take the concept of "A battle must have huge casualties, and if they are inflicted on the enemy that is an unexpected bonus" just like the Imperial Guard or certain Loyalist Chapters do. Especially if those Marines are members of the World Eaters ("IF ONLY I COULD JOIN YOU SLAVES IN CHARGING THAT BANEBLADE WITH POINTY STICKS, TRULY YOU ARE FAVORED BY KHORNE!") or the Word Bearers, who regard the deaths of huge numbers of slave fodder as a religious rite that honors the gods.

 

 

But there must be at least a few, like Talos's warband or the Blood Gorgons, where slave life is, if not a cavalcade of puppies and hugs, at least not worse than the existence endured by the average Imperial Hiver or Forge World worker.

 

 

Speaking of Siege of Castellax in particular, there were good reasons for some of the the Iron Warriors treatment of the Flesh ("good" from the in universe standpoint of a corrupted paranoid war machine) but there were a lot of things that seemed to have no higher purpose than "Because we feel like being jerks today."

[Iron_Within]

Unfortunately in terms of the siege of Castellax I think it was from a ham fisted "Because we're eeeeeeevvilll!" rather than anything else and missed the main point of Iron Warriors. Iron Warriors calculate everything, the life of a slave is reduced to a mathematical calculation along with everything else (see: siege craft). They are not just twisted bitter and hateful, but genius level  sociopathic brooding twisted, bitter and hateful. They would keep slaves in filthy conditions if it was more efficient to do so, one Iron Warrior impales a slave on his e-tool to make a point to his brother (in a Honsou story), his point was the slaves deaths are already calculated so it doesn't matter, they are a free resource and should always be used instead of machines (which cannot be replaced).

Remember these are Astartes who once a warrior is too wrecked even for a dreadnought, stick them in their siege diggers.

[Visitor13]

Re the World Eaters and the Word Bearers, all that cultits blood can serve as a vital step in a daemon summoning or somesuch.

[Xeraxen]

I think it all broils down to which legion/warband is leading the slaves [though there are always exceptions].

 

As stated above, the Word Bearers and World Eaters would tend to butcher or squander thier mortal minions [though the World Eaters would also be likely to run alongside them].

 

If I recall correctly, the Death Guard tend to be pretty chummy with thier humans - seeing them equal in thier wonderful plaguiness.

 

The Black Legion - at least what I saw in the awesome Night Lords trilogy - seem to give thier cultists and slaves at least some semblance of attention in the form of guns and such.

 

Iron-ically enough, Honsou worked alongside his slaves in the digging of a trench in one of the Iron Warrior short stories. He even shouted an 'Incoming!' when the Ultramarines fired upon them with artillary, surprisingly enough.

 

The Emperor's Children would probably use thier minions as a means of easy-access drug-components [in the case of the slave's tear drink in Angel Exterminatus] or art supplies.

 

I'm unsure as to how the Thousand Sons treat thier slaves and cultists. >.>

 

Again, there are always going to  be exceptions to these behaviours. An Emperor's Children Lord could keep a few dozen slave girls around as orgy-material and whatnot.

[Wade Garrett]

Xeraxen, I agree with most of your points, that a lot of how the mortal hangers on are treated will depend on which Legion or warband has taken them.

 

It's just I've always thought Perturabo's crew would be one of the less profligate with their minions, not because it's evil but because it's a waste. And then I read Siege of Castellax, which featured much mustache twirling, candy taken from babies, and puppies kicked, in an inefficient way.

 

Granted, some of that may have been "This is your brain, THIS is your brain on Chaos" and some of it (processing dead slaves into gruel for the live ones) is exactly what I'd expect from the Warriors even Pre-Heresy.

 

So I made a topic to gripe. Loudly and at length.

[derpasaurus]

My personal view is this:
If they're too weak, unskilled, or stupid to do anything necessary for the upkeep of your warband, chain them together and walk into battle behind them.
Anyone with any skill or promise can be used until they break or are no longer useful.

 

Even Talos, who you might consider was being relatively "nice" to Septimus, had 6 slaves before him. He kept him around because he was good at flying and fixing things. Even gave him augmetics. But at the same time, IIRC, he made sure Septimus knew he was replaceable, even threatened to kill him a few times.

 

We're horrible bosses because, in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is no HR.