Squandered Resources

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah but Talos only killed one of those slaves IIRC. Although he beat the living ****out of Septimus when he disobeyed the "No Touchie" decree.

[derpasaurus]

True.
My point was more even the 'nice' guys who understand you have a valuable skill will kill you if you push them than anything else.

If only it were officially referred to as the "No Touchie Decree." lol

[Wade Garrett]

Given that Septimus disobeyed a direct order and compromised the safety of the ship's Navigator..I think 78% of Loyalist Marines would have disembowelled him at that point.

 

Anyway, I have no problem with Night Lords or Iron Warriors skinning disobedient slaves alive, it's randomly killing slaves "Because I haven't been EEE-VIL enough today" that gets my goat.

 

Now, First Claw has some like that (Uzuas and Cyrion) but it's recognized in universe as a flaw and a waste by the saner Night Lords.

 

(Note: If we can believe Talos, two of his servants died of old age, an option not normally available to mortals in service to the Legions of the Eye. This man needs a "Galaxy's Best Boss" novelty caff mug)

[Kol Saresk]

Well in Uzas' defense, he only did it once and it was probably because he was riding a battle high from killing a different group of defenseless humans so he just got confused.

 

But your point still stands.

[Plaguecaster]

Basically the Deathguard would really be the only ones to care about their slaves though to some infecting someone with a deadly plague which most likely would kill you and make you a zombie would probably  be seen as the most evil thing ever but most fools fail to see that Nurgle cares about his followers no matter the what they are slave or plague marine all are equal in Grandfathers Nurgle glory being equally blessed.

 

Besides basically most slaves should be happy they are serving a legion like the Iron Warriors sure you will die but its a lot better than being a slave of followers of Slaanesh now that is something I don't want to picture even death is better than what they do to their slaves.

[Kol Saresk]

That would depend on how you define "to care for."

[Wade Garrett]

Random Emperor's Child:

"I'm doing you a favor! This is going to feel SOOO awesome! It's a little boring for me, because I've already done it to 235 people, but I can't deprive you of this awesome sensation. Thanks for the tears of gratitude, they make it all worthwhile! "

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

 

 

It seems Brother Garrett suffern from a debilitating from of affection and keeps his humans like pets! The Flesh is only useful if molded into a form, and even then it is the most brittle of materials. It is to be kept bleeding so it remembers who are its masters. 

 

It's always this way...at first. Only later does it turn into:

"Brother Garrett, the countermines are not complete because a plague broke out amongst the starving, naked mortals that were supposed to be digging them."

 

"Brother Garrett, I slit my artificers's throat because he told me it would take him two days to fully repair my war plate, may I borrow yours?"

 

"Brother Garrett, my squad's Land Raider is still damaged from the last battle because one of the slaves charged with fixing it looked at me with both eyes simaltaneously, so I set the entire work crew on fire. How are we to reach the enemy lines for the main assault?"

 

You mistake pragmatism for compassion.

In a sad way, that kind of explains our lack of transport options in the codex.

[Kol Saresk]

Duh-duh-duh-dsss

[derpasaurus]

I stand by my statement that using them as munitions magnets is acceptable. 
Clearly not every one of them will be fit for breeding to implant progenoids into, and not every one will have any skills worth using. Heck, some may even WANT to charge buck naked into battle. Where do you think aspiring champions come from? lol
I mean, in a world where the Imperium alone sends BILLIONS of souls to their deaths every minute in the meatgrinder known as the Imperial Guard, surely puny human cattle aren't really that precious a resource.

[Beachymike123]

The Dark Eldar do it all the time - Anything that's not a Kabbalite Trueborn or Character (above squad leader rank) is probably a clone.

 

The Afriel Strain was an attempt to create an army of clones of great Imperial heroes that kind of went flop. The clones were perfectly adequate, but they showed none of the incredible greatness of, say, Macharius or Thor.

 

i have to correct you here miko, dark eldar are usually born in vats by extracting the fetus from the mother as being pregnant in a society full of murderers, back stabbers etc puts you in a position of vulnerability. pregnancy among the dark eldar is reserved for the extremely rich, wealthy and influencial. half-borns form the backbone of comorragh's society but they can rise in power (asdrubael vect himself started as a slave), but true-borns are born into positions of power from birth thanks to their mother, but generally they aren't clones from birth - the cloning aspect is what gives the dark eldar their immortality. usually before a real space raid the more influential in a kabal/wych cult/coven will give part of themselves to the haemonculus in case anything untoward were to happen. all eldar are capable of projecting their mind to other places, the dark eldar redirect their mind to their piece and from that a new body is grown. please note that 'unfortunate events' can happen that will often prohibit this, however, usually in the form of other dark eldar trying to get one over on their rivals. and with that aspect of the True Kin covered, back on topic.

in just about all of the fluff i have read about the iron warriors, they have a tendency to make their mortal subjects run out in front of the enemy's guns. this works in a three fold manner - the enemy is busy shooting at the closest target running towards them; the iron warriors are sussing out enemy strong/weak points; the enemy can be scared into using their more vital weapons too early thus leaving less to take out the iron warriors themselves. in many cases, i'd imagine that iron warrior slave camps are largely just overwatched, their food and water supplies are lowered in and they have to fight among themselves as to what they get. other warbands and legions have many different methods as to how their mortals are treated - alpha legion probably allow their followers to have a vote on membership beforehand, death guard will likely have a drink as they spread the love of papa nurgle, world eaters and word bearers however will likely be crying with joy at the wanton slaughter of their minions. as for slaaneshi warbands, well, lets not contemplate what happens to their minions. 

[minigun762]

You talk about wasting resources. The biggest waste I saw was the pathetic squabbling and positioning of fools who had forgotten the long war.

[derpasaurus]

You talk about wasting resources. The biggest waste I saw was the pathetic squabbling and positioning of fools who had forgotten the long war.

Exactly. 

The goal here is to seize (burn!?) "Holy" Terra, after all. That can't be done without losses.

The only resources squandered are the resources left unused.

[Wade Garrett]

Would you fire your bolter into the air until it ran empty? Would you beat your chainsword against a mountain until the teeth shattered?

 

I do not argue for compassion, merely an INTELLIGENT use of the slave flesh.

(See the Blood Gorgons in...well, Blood Gorgons for how I imagine a non pants on head warband would treat its chattel)

[Nehekhare]

In order to sharpen a blade, you have to scrape some metal off it.

[derpasaurus]

Would you fire your bolter into the air until it ran empty? Would you beat your chainsword against a mountain until the teeth shattered?

 

I do not argue for compassion, merely an INTELLIGENT use of the slave flesh.

(See the Blood Gorgons in...well, Blood Gorgons for how I imagine a non pants on head warband would treat its chattel)

I don't understand how you get there. "Using resources" does not equal "wasting resources." Clearly I wouldn't just fire my gun. I'm not a Slaaneshi noise addict. I would only attack a mountain I knew i could defeat. :p And I in no way suggest butchering your own slaves. I'm no lapdog of the Blood God. But you don't need to coddle your humans, either. If they're talented, use them until they break. If they're weak, let them die. If they're brave, let them die for you. Simply that.

[daveNYC]

Broken tools don't work very well and talent is hard to come by.   Would you neglect the maintenance of your bolter and armor and simply plan to grab new equipment should they fail in battle?

[derpasaurus]

Again.
Humans are much more easily replaceable than boltguns. I don't see any analogy here. In a world where a thousand psykers a day die ON PURPOSE simply to keep the one man "alive," and millions a day die in the meatgrinder that is the Imperial Guard alone, (and they're certainly never short on manpower) how is using slaves, something there are untold numbers of in the galaxy as a whole, as meat shields any more wasteful than what the imperium does?  Or even better, even remotely similar to randomly firing off a boltgun? Something that is in pretty short supply. I don't even waste boltgun ammo on slaves.

Surely I'm not the only one to think this way?

[*Furyou Miko]

Just because the Imperium are a bunch of resource-wasting hidebound morons doesn't mean we can use that as an excuse to waste our own servants.

 

We are trying to bring the Imperials down, remember. Don't go comparing us to that corpse-worshipping trash.

[Plaguecaster]

Most of our slaves are imperials any way so who cares there is always more slaves to be taken, if they serve the purpose fine but if a few die pointlessly oh well just  enslave some more, besides they are not true followers of chaos killing a few servants (even slaves) of the corpse emperor is always good.

[Knight of the Raven]

It depends on how hard it is to obtain slaves.

It they're easy to get, one can afford to waste them.

If they're the prize of dangerous, costly raids, one should not.

Skilled slaves are even harder to get a hold of.

[derpasaurus]

I.. you... we're not...
gah. Nevermind.

*rolls eyes and goes back to eastern fringes slave pits*

[totgeboren]

I try to rationalize this as it being 'For the Greater Good/Gods'. I mean, chaos as a faction would not work if they always behaved even half as brutally as they are portrayed. Ok, those who are organized entirely as pirates/reavers could probably keep going for a while, but even a frigate like an iconoclast would need qualified human serfs.

The treatment of slaves would depend a lot on who is in charge I suppose, and what they are trying to accomplish. For example, I'm a huge WB fan, and this quote from their IA article sums them and their underlying motivations up nicely for me.

"Only united behind the teachings of a god and offering the obeisance that such a god requires can the masses of Humanity be saved from the perils of alien menace and internal schism. There is only one power in the galaxy worthy of such submission, and that is the dark majesty of Chaos."

So, what would this mean? First off, the underlying goal is to save humanity, not destroy it.
How it translates to the average battlefield would depend on the enemy they are facing and if the cultists are up for the task. If you can sacrifice 100 cultists to summon 100 daemons, and those daemons will win you the day, should you not? Maybe losing the battle (or even the war) would result in the destruction of millions of faithful at the hands of the Imperium? How could the cultists who are sacrificed be anything but heroes, as their blood and souls brought the daemons forth, thereby preventing defeat? For the WB the ends justify the means. The Gods do favour them, but they do not grant their aid for free.
To make a real-world example. During one part of WW2, when the US were doing their bombing runs of Germany (if I remember correctly), the chances of a bomber returning was something like 1/10. A suggestion to the crews was to only tank the planes for a one-way trip, and instead load them with more bombs, meaning they would do more damage. Of course everyone wanted that 1/10 chance of returning home instead of a much higher chance of doing damage.
For chaos, they don't give the crew the choice. If the WB are more or less sure the cultists will die, it's better for the war effort if they do as much damage as possible. This is the option the Japanese took with their kamikaze planes. In some cultures, such behaviour is highly virtuous, even if it is horrible to us. Why can't it be so in 40k too?

There is no denying that the WB are crazy devoted to the Dark Gods, and for example in the Dark X series when they are trying to build their nifty daemon tower, they treat their slaves horribly. But it is for a reason. First of, the plan all along is to destroy the planet, so the fate of the slaves is sealed anyway. Secondly, pain, fear and anguish draws daemons like a moth to a flame, and they need a lot of daemons to stuff into the construction of the tower. The daemons are not going to show up unless the WB offer them something. The same goes for their use of slaves as cannon fodder. It serves many purposes, some military, some more esoteric.

I always imagine that there is some infrastructure and civilization behind the battlefields that my WBs are either trying to defend, or trying to capture. The WB have some heavy industrial capacity, and have millions of human followers so they can't be killing them all the time. Food must be produced, ores mined, roads maintained, children cared for and so on, otherwise the long war would grind to a halt and defeat. In my own version of 40k, living under the WB is not much worse than living under the Imperium. Different yes, but both just represent different horrors to you and me.
Logistics is everything in a long war, and the WB are still going strong, so they must have many worlds which are thriving. Also, and I know some might get upset IRL (sorry, it is not my intention in the slightest), not all cultures are as shocked and horrified at (religious) self-sacrifice as us in the west, even if that self-sacrifice comes from brainwashing and the orders of some 'more spiritually enlightened mentor' (which a WB would definitely be to a lowly human cultist).
I mean, just look at the news of the middle east. The families of those who 'sacrifice' themselves in their holy wars will be congratulated by friends and neighbours, as the 'hero' has secured a place for them in heaven by their deed.
If people can think that sounds great IRL, I have no problem imagining my cultists sacrificing themselves with a smile on their lips when given the order by the WB in-game. They are sort of demigods, in direct communion with the Gods after all. If they say 'jump' my cultists will jump around slaying all who will not heed the command of the Chosen of the Gods (that is, those who are not jumping!)

 

*Edit for spelling and grammar fail*

[Kol Saresk]

Totgeboren: I believe that you may be onto something. The only thing I would slightly disagree with is that some of us in the West maybe a little more...different in how we view self-sacrifice, some us do believe that self-sacrifice to save others is, while not preferred, noble. At least I think that's the word I'm looking for. But yes, very good read.

[totgeboren]

Totgeboren: I believe that you may be onto something. The only thing I would slightly disagree with is that some of us in the West maybe a little more...different in how we view self-sacrifice, some us do believe that self-sacrifice to save others is, while not preferred, noble. At least I think that's the word I'm looking for. But yes, very good read.

Thanks, and I understand what you mean. I have actually written a university-level essay back when I studied philosophy on the issue of self-sacrifice, suicide and martyrdom, so I could go on and on, (and I did, but I deleted it! Too much controversial RL statements for a 40k board.)