The Humble Landraider

[Atlantic]

I'm more of a fantasy player than a 40k guy.

 

However, in 5th I used to regularly play in leagues and local tournaments.

 

I'm preparing for the biggest one in the area right now and the whole meta is just totally different.  

 

In 5th there were loads of tank heavy marine armies of all stripes.  Usually the guy with the most melta and landraiders was in for a good showing.

 

Now our local meta is dominated by Flyer Heavy Necrons and orks with flyers.

 

All of the armies are very infantry heavy.  With the exception of guard, you just don't see alot of tanks, certainly nothing heavier than a rhino.

 

The Hull Point change and abundance of Necrons has just scared people away from tanks.  All of that means there seems to be alot less melta floating around than before.

 

So, I think there might be an opportunity to dust off the old Land Raider.  In our last local tournament we had 22 players, no land raiders at all.

 

I'm concerned that it might just get dinged to death.  Have any of you guys been running them?  Are they still effective or just too costly for the amount of punishment they take?

 

If it helps, I believe the rest of my list will be quite complimentary with it as I am 2 big assault squads that should Ideally jump on infantry units that would threaten the land raider.

[L30n1d4s]

As I see it, it depends on how you employ them/what role they play in your army.

 

For example, if your LR delivers a critical unit into enemy lines, even if it gets glanced to death afterwards, it could be potentially worth its inclusion in your force. Given that it can now move 18" in a single turn, it has great ability to move a unit a large stretch of the board in a single turn.

 

Similarly, if you are playing DA and you use a LRC to protect a Vet squad with the Standard of Devastation, then it can also be a great use of the Land Raider in your army. Synergizing it with Ravenwing bikers or Bolter Tacticals and you have a great deal of dakka and a well-protected bunker to keep the Standard of Devastation safe and extend its 6" bubble.

 

Another consideration is playing in such a manner that you protect your investment in the LR. Even though it is AV14 all around and has 4 HPs, if you treat it like an industructable juggernaught and carelessly throw it out in the open, you could easily lose it early in the game. Using cover saves (natural cover, Aegis Lines, Psychic Powers etc.), Invul saves (DA Power Field Generator, Foreboding Psychic power, etc.) and positioning (I.e. outside half melta range or rapid fire Gauss range) to limit threats can make the Land Raider that near-indestructble vehicle that it appears to be and allow it survive until the end of the game consistently.

 

Finally, I have known players to use Land Raiders very effectively to physically shield the rest of their army, blocking LOS and even drawing firepower away from critical units. Except for Gauss/Lance/Haywire weapons, nothing under S8 can even hurt Land Raiders, which makes them very difficult to deal with for many armies out there (plasma and autocannon spam anyone).

 

In general, I think it is best to treat Land Raiders more like a "General" for your force which can be used to fight decently, but is more useful for how it synergizes with and supports other units, than a "Bruiser" unit which just steamrolls over units by itself.

[Atlantic]

My thoughts echo your own.

 

I think the Landraider will synergize pretty well with the rest of my list.

 

This is what I plan on running.

 

Codex BA 1850

 

Librarian, Epistolary, Jump Pack (Telepathy)

 

Sanguinary Priest, Jump Pack, Power Weapon

 

Assault Squad x 10, Jump Packs, 2 Melta Guns, Power Fist

Assault Squad x 10, Jump Packs, 2 Melta Guns, Power Fist

Assault Squad x 10, 2 Melta Guns, Power Weapon - Land Raider w/ Multi Melta

 

Attack Bikes x 2, 2 Multi Meltas

Attack Bikes x 2, 2 Multi Meltas

 

Stormraven (Assault Cannon / Multi Melta)

Dev Squad (5) 4 ML

Dev Squad (5) 4 ML

 

 

I think the Land Raider is going to give me a mobile fire support platform with which to take or contest objectives.  I think supported by my jumpers (who ideally will jump on Necron Warriors and other units like that) and the guys on the inside who can assault out into infantry should let it shine in the roll.  It also puts two las cannons into my list which I'm lacking.  The Dev Units are a pretty cost effective fire support unit.

 

 

 

My chief concern is that it is the *lone* piece of armour on the table.  

 

Depending on opponent and scenario, I am leaning toward a tactic of putting the lr into reserve, along with one of the jump units combat squadded.   I could Deep Strike the thing if I wanted to be really crazy, but I'm a bit conservative for that.  

[roryokane]

The main problem here, as I see it, is that against most armies, you're going to run in to real trouble with just the one piece of armour on the table (especially such a big, imposing, expensive piece): Land Raiders have always been fire-magnets. In previous editions, this was largely okay, as you'd normally be able to shrug off most anti-tank fire (melta, lance, and ordnance notwithstanding) - S8 weapons (like missile launchers, or melta at over half range) weren't too scary - your opponent would have to hit, roll a 6 to glance, followed by another 6 on the damage chart to blow you up, which was statistically rather improbable, and lascannons (or their equivalents) were always just a little too expensive to spam. And other than Tau railguns, most S10 weapons were relatively short ranged (Demolisher cannons, for example), so you could at least be sure that you'd have a few rounds of firing and tank-shocking as long as no one assaulted you with melta-bombs. :P You were realistically more at risk of being glanced to death by Gauss weapons against Necrons than anything else just by sheer volume of fire.

However, now that vehicles have structure points, if your Land Raider suffers four glancing hits during the whole game, it's dead. This means that massed S8 fire can bring it down (hence missile launchers being very popular in 6th ed). Not to mention now that AP 2 weapons now get +1 on the damage chart, and AP1 weapons get +2, meaning that if your opponent has a reasonable number of S8 weapons with a few S9/10's thrown in (lascannons, railguns, etc), you're in trouble, because he will just point them ALL at your Land Raider. The use of armour in 6th Ed relies a lot, it seems, on target saturation - you need to spread your opponent's anti-tank fire thinly enough that your vehicles can't all be glanced to death in the first turn or two - and in this case, your one Land Raider can, and will be.

[Giga]

Well, my local meta doesn't have any cronair lists (only one regular necron player and he only has one scythe). There are a couple ork players, but they aren't very active and it doesn't seem like they have any planes. So take my advice with a grain of salt.

 

But anyway, I believe a unit of 5-6 th/ss termies in a land raider classic is extremely good to have in marine lists, namely because this unit can generally arrive wherever it's needed (effective 12-24" threat range for the termies), is psychologically annoying to the opponent (everyone is scared of land raiders and th/ss termies), the land raider itself provides long range anti-tank which is always good (multimelta helps a lot too), and with good target saturation (ie. vindicators, dreads, attack bikes, land speeders etc.) land raiders become extremely survivable because the opponent can't just shoot all anti-tank guns at them. Obviously, this requires you to build your entire list with this in mind and obviously a single land raider with no other dangerous armor on the field will get picked off easily.

 

Keep in mind though, there's no real reason to take a land raider if you can get a stormraven instead. 

[Gentlemanloser]

For the first time in a long time, I'm planning on using a LR again.

 

But only one, and only in this specific set up.

 

Land Raider Crusader, Dark Angels Command Squad (Banner of Devastation), Techmarine (Power Field Generator).

 

This gives me a Land Raider that;

 

• Shoots 24 Twin Linked Bolter Shots (in addition to its TL Assault Cannon/MM)
• Has a 4++ Save
• Can have lost Hull Points (and Immobilised/Weapon destroyed) repairs via the embarked Techmaine

 

The two bubbles are also projected from its Hull.

 

This is pricey, and costs 510 points in total.  But it will be a lot of fun.  Until I run into mass Haywire/D weapons. :'(

[jeffersonian000]

One big box is a target

 

Two big boxes are a tactic

Three big boxes are a strategy (because you better have a strategy if you're putting
that many points into 3 big boxes)

 

The goal of using a Land Raider successfully is that you take other units in your
army that are enough of a threat on their own to equal the worth of your Land
Raider. Basically, it’s the same strategy as Target Saturation, which you've
already noted in your OP where all you see are lots of Rhinos and nothing
bigger. Rhinos are garbage, but they are cheap cheap garbage; they survive by
being plentiful. Land Raiders are expensive, and only marginally more
survivable than Rhinos. In order to keep your Land Raider in the game past turn 1, you need
to build your army around using that Land Raider not as the core of your army
but as yet another unit your opponent has to deal with. If they go after your
Land Raider, you need to have the forces necessary to exploit that bad decision
on their part. If they choose to leave your Land Raider alone, you need to use
that Land Raider to make them regret doing so.

With the army you've posted above, your Stormraven is already a Big Box with a
target symbol painted on each side. Taking a Land Raider makes those target
symbols smaller. Your Attack Bikes can be another Big Box if you use them that
way, drawing fire away from the Land Raider until the Stormraven is on the
table, or knifing in to take advantage of the attention your Land Raider is
drawing. Those Jump Troops are dandy for following up in a pinch as needed to
support either of your 3 Big Box units, tying up enemy resources, following up
by taking down weakened enemies, or by rushing objectives.

 

As I said, the goal is to plan out how a Big Box will benefit your army, then
build your army around that Big Box.

 

SJ

[Atlantic]

Are you guys familiar with the concept of Money Ball?

 

If not, the short version goes like this.  There was a general manager for a major league baseball team that was short on cash.  He did not have the funds to outbid wealthier ball clubs and snatch up all the expensive talent.  His idea was to try and stockpile ball players who were good at things that were undercosted in the current baseball market.  So at that time, all the big money was going toward home run hitters and high batting average players.  So instead of getting guys like that, he went after guys who were fast and good at defense.  

 

I've got a couple of thoughts concerning this that might be useful in regard to list building in 40k.  They also lead me back to the old Land Raider.

 

1.  I think Str, 6,7, & 8 shooting is the flavor of the month.  Everyone is taking flyers, anti flyer weapons, and because you see lots of infantry they are not taking loads of anti tank weaponry.  In the old meta, armour lists were everywhere.  So in this instance, I think the Land Raider might be that undervalued tool that might be overly effective as it is a safeish environment for it to play in.

 

2.  I was thinking of sort of reverse money ball in regard to real money.  GW tends to make the good stuff expensive in $.  This isn't always the case, but there is a reason the Storm Raven and Land Raider are $86.

 

If you were to somehow be able to analyze winning lists, I wonder if you would see a trend that represents the following idea.  Armies with a higher unit by unit cost in dollars tend to win more games against armies with lower unit by unit costs in real dollars.

 

There are alot of other factors and it would be correlational at best, but I wonder if there is something to that.

 

It kind've makes me want to run a list with The Storm Raven and 2 Land Raiders.

 

I have a Regular Land Raider, a Storm Raven, and a magnetized Crusader/Redeemer.  Given that there doesn't seem to be so much melta running around and that you can't really melta the raven.  That trio might, *might* jink the current meta that I'm playing in.  

 

If you were curios about that Meta.  In the last tournament we had (22 players), there were only 2 marine armies in the whole tournament.  The top 4 spots went to Necron armies with a good chunk of flyers.  The next 3 were ork armies with Ghazgull and 2+ of the jets.  The rest was a mixture of Tau, Daemons, Nids, and Guard.

[Atlantic]

So I'm thinking about a list like this.  It has issues to be worked out though.

 

Librarian, Epistolary

 

Assault Squad x 10, Jump Packs, 2 Melta Guns, Power Weapon

Assault Squad x 10, 2 Flamers, Power Weapon - Land Raider Redeemer w/ Multi Melta and pintle Storm Bolter

Assault Squad x 10, 2 Melta Guns, Power Weapon - Land Raider w/ Multi Melta

 

Attack Bikes x 2 - 2 Multi Meltas

 

Stormraven, Multi Melta / Assault Cannon

Dev Squad x 5, 4 ML

Dev Squad x 5, 4 ML

[W0lfie]

Another thing you could try with your blood angels list would be to use a whole bunch of razorbacks for your assault marines, which would add some long-range support while you close with the enemy, as well as provide solid target saturation for your mech component.  Because if they fire everything on the landraider, then assuming they manage to kill it they would (by then) have 3-4 angry razorbacks firing 4 lascannon and 8 TL plasma shots at him a turn, all filled with angry, scoring assault marines.

[Atlantic]

Hrmm

 

I do have 5 Razorbacks and 2 Rhinos I could put turrets on.

[roryokane]

With that many Razorbacks against non- MEQ armies, I'd be tempted to just spam assault cannons instead, and add stormbolters for extra dakka. Orks and Nids would be especially vulnerable, as would everything in an IG list except Leman Russ tanks (and even then, lucky rending hits could knock 'em out). :D

[Captain Idaho]

I've found the Land Raider to be unstoppable in some games and wasted points in others because it was so easily taken out (Tau). This happened regardless of my other vehicle units on the board.

 

To compensate I've decided to use 3 Drop Pods in my army to bring pressure and damage to danger units. Tau Hammerhead and Broadsides can be taken out or distracted before the Land Raider can be targeted, for example. This changes in the dynamic of the game will put the Land Raider into a much more unstoppable position, hence making it much more worthwhile.

[Guest Drunk Guardian]

 

I've found the Land Raider to be unstoppable in some games and wasted points in others because it was so easily taken out (Tau). This happened regardless of my other vehicle units on the board.

 

To compensate I've decided to use 3 Drop Pods in my army to bring pressure and damage to danger units. Tau Hammerhead and Broadsides can be taken out or distracted before the Land Raider can be targeted, for example. This changes in the dynamic of the game will put the Land Raider into a much more unstoppable position, hence making it much more worthwhile.

 

 

What sorts of units would you use in the Drop Pods and the Land Raider in an army like this?

[Giga]

High threat units in drop pods (tacticals with melta, sternguard with combiplasmas/combimeltas, also a super-dangerous unkillable HQ like Lysander) and assault termies in land raider. Put in a couple vindicators, mm/hf speeders, or multimelta attack bikes, and you got yourself some sick target saturation. No matter what your opponent has or does, you're very likely to get charges and melta range shots off on turn 2. 

[Atlantic]

I play tested this list yesterday.

 

Codex BA 1850 Points

 

Librarian, Epistolary

 

Assault Squad x 10, 2 Meltaguns, Power Weapon, Landraider w/ Multi Melta

Assault Squad x 10, 2 Flamers, Power Weapon, Landraider Redeemer w/ Multi Melta

Assault Squad x 10, Jump Packs, 2 Meltaguns, Power Weapon

 

Attack Bikes x 2, 2 Multi Meltas

 

Stormraven, Multi Melta, Assault Cannon

Dev Squad x 5, 4 ML

Dev Squad x 5, 4 ML

 

 

My opponent ran an Iron Hands list that went something like this

 

Captain, Bike, Power Fist

 

Big Scout Squad with cloaks, Sniper Rifles and a ML

Full Bike Squad with a melta gun and Multi Melta Attack Bike

Tac Squad x 5, Razorback w/ Twinlinked Las

Tac Squad x 5, Razorback w/ Twinlinked Las

 

2 - Storm Talons with Typhoon ML and Assault Cannon

 

2 Thunderfire Cannons

Dev Squad 6, 4 ML - Manning an Aegis Defense line with Quad Gun

 

He had something else I don't recall

 

We played the Scouring Mission.

 

My Landraiders were untouchable.  I tabled him at Turn 4.

 

Basically, I got first turn.  Shredded his bike squad (his only melta) with my Devs and Landraider.  In turn 2 my Assault Marines Deep Struck behind his Defense Line and lit up one of his Thunderfire Cannons and Dev Squads over a couple of turns.  My Stormraven shot him up pretty good and eliminated a Stormtalon.  The rest of the stuff did what it does.  The redeemer hosed marines in cover, etc.

 

I felt like there was a fair bit of synergy between all of these separate components.  I didn't lose any units, but my Devs got beat up pretty good by his Thunderfire Cannons.  

 

The landraiders were just unstoppable.  I lost two hull points on one of them.  The other was pristine at the end of the game.  Str. 6,7,&8 shooting is the flavor of the month.  The landraider seems to have its niche as long as this continues to remain the case.

 

 

These were my concerns with the list:

1.  My Librarian was fairly pointless.  He just rode around in the Landraider Redeemer and did nothing.  I wish I could have a Techmarine or Master of the Forge for my Warlord with this list, but in Codex BA, the Techmarine is not an independent character.

 

2.  My Dev Squads just get hammered each game, which is fine.  5 man squads are just vulnerable though and if they eat enough fire to protect my other squads it is kind've worth it.

 

3.  I wish I had Room for a Drop Pod with a Dreadnought in it.  My Assault Squad with Descent of Angels is cool, but having an Alpha Strike in T 1 is huge. - I could drop the bikes (which I love) and bump my Librarian down to a level 1 for a Dread in a Pod, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

 

Anyway, I need to do more play testing, but in this case, the landraiders did really well! 

[Giga]

His list was really bad. Not enough melta. 510 pts wasted on two crappy fliers and weak artillery. No troops. Garbage captain loadout. Devastators. Just terrible. 

 

As for your own list, I think it's unbalanced, like most multiple land raider lists tend to be. There's just nothing to take the heat off your land raiders, so any balanced army with str 10 pieplates, melta, or just a lot of high str shots is going to take them out or immobilize them by turn 2, making for some frustrating games when you go 2nd and get shot up on 1st turn. Also, you dont need epistolary upgrade. 

[Atlantic]

So out of curiosity.  What would make it balanced?

 

What would you change about the list to make it more effective?

[Giga]

Get rid of epistolary upgrade, just run a barebones libby or give him terminator armor to make him more survivable. Get rid of one LR, too. That should net you about 300 points, which you can then spend on getting some more killy stuff into the list, like an aegis defense line with quad gun, baal preds, etc. 

 

Personally, I don't like devastators. It's probably just me, but I feel they're just unflexible and if you end up playing on low terrain they always suffer from LOS issues. Also, they don't really offer any target saturation to land raiders. Anyway, from a vanilla standpoint, here's a list I'd run if I was a BA player:

 

Librarian

Assault Marines - 2x meltagun

Assault Marines - 2x meltagun

Tactical Squad - flamer, combiflamer, missile launcher

10 death company - 2x powerfist, land raider crusader with multimelta

Stormraven - hurricane bolters

Vindicator - dozer blade

Vindicator - dozer blade

Aegis defense line - quad gun

 

This leaves you some extra points you can shuffle around, but basically this means that on turn 1 your opponent has a land raider full of love + two vindicators moving 18" towards him and popping smoke + 20 assault marines coming right behind them. Then a stormraven arrives on turn 2, and you get a nice fat turn 2 alphastrike. Death company can be replaced with assault terminators. Libby can be replaced with a reclusiarch. Depending on opponent you can skies of blood with your assault marines, or put your death company into the stormraven and have your tacticals camp in the LR behind aegis defense line. It's pretty flexible, I think, but I feel no matter what the opponent does you'll be unloading some serious punch on him as early as 2nd turn. 

[Atlantic]

I was thinking about doing the following.

 

Librarian - His sole job is to cast Presience

 

Assault Squad, Jump Packs, 2 Melta Guns, Power Fist

Assault Squad, 2 Flamers, Power Weapon, Land Raider Redeemer w/ Multi Melta

Assault Squad, 2 Melta Guns, Power Weapon, Land Raider w/ Multi Melta

 

Stormraven - Assault Cannon / Multi Melta

Devastator Squad x 10 or 9 - 4 Missle Launchers

Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun or Lascannon

Dreadnought w/ Multi Melta - Drop Pod

 

 

 

My plan here is to stick the Dev Squad behind the Defense Line and to have the bolter guys eat wounds / man the gun.  Librarian would hide behind them and cast Presience over and over again.

 

The Dreadnaught and Jumpers would give me an Alpha Strike Presence.

 

The landraiders would just go forward.

[Giga]

Droppod dread isn't really going to give you any alpha strike presence vs good players since they'll kinda deploy in a way that prevents you from getting melta range on their important stuff, so it ends up being a waste of ~150 pts. :S But if you really want alpha strike capabilities, 5 sternguard with combiweps in a droppod are more effective at that job. 

 

Also, you don't need 10 devs. Either keep the two mini squads each with 4 missile launchers, or just one, no need to have all those additional bodies. 

 

Finally, I'm not sure power fist/power weapons are really all that useful since they'll just get singled out in challenges anyway. For vehicle hunting, you're much better off equipping sergeants with meltabombs. 

[Captain Idaho]

Although it's off topic somewhat, you can make good use out of a powerfist Sergeant by keeping him in a position he'll be unegaged at the begining of the assault. This is easy to do if you're receiving a charge.

 

This means the Sergeant cannot be challenged or make a challenge, going back to being a hidden power fist.

[Giga]

Precision shots, precision hits, barrage sniping. Hidden powerfists are just too easy to get rid off, nowadays. 

[Captain Idaho]

Those things are very hard to control and you even mitigate them with careful unit placement. What's more is Look Out Sir! also helps reduce the damage.

 

I think this could merit it's own thread though.

[Morollan]

I'm playing a game this week against a Necron/CSM army with 2 Night Scythes and a Helldrake. I was asked specifically to tailor a list to use against them so I decided to go for a wall of Land Raiders. Two BA assault squads in a LR and LRR and a DA tactical squad in a LR with a power field generator. Basically, his flyers can't do jack against me unless and until I get out of the Raiders so all I need to do is take out anything in his army that can damage me (basically a Destroyer Lord with Wraiths and a squad of Havocs) and then drive to any objectives ready to disembark on the final turn, taking potshots at the flyers in the meantime.

 

No idea how well this will work in practice but it should be a laugh.