dual wing questions

[undeadfilth]

So, I'm in the process of creating a dark angels death/ravenwing dual force and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions. Trying it with azrael and then even amounts of death and raven contingents. What do you guys run in a dual wing and why? Thanks:)

[Lando The Archmagi]

I'm working on a variant "Fallen" DA dual/tri wing army myself.  Going to have Azrael, x10 Deathwing Termis, 5xBlack Knight Terms, 6-9 Ravenwing bikers (2-3 squads of 3), plus a Ravenwing command squad.   Also going to have some Vets/Cypher/Tac marines/Devastators, LR Crusdaer/Redeemer and other stuff... Not sure how many points it'll end up being, but going for 2-2500 probably.   Also got Ezekiel and ordered a Belial (or might build one).  Got a mixure of vehicle options to try out.

[undeadfilth]

I'm thinking something similar as well. Aiming for 2.5k I have something like, azrael with dw knights in redeemer, 2 squads of 6 rw bikes with meltaguns and typhoonspeeders, rw black knights, 3 squads of dw termies(can't decide between ass cannons or cyclones), dark shroud or two. Not sure if this would be solid or if I'm begging for my teeth to be kicked in:P

[riddles]

So, I ran doublewing pretty much all the way through 5th and i'm currently 3 and 0 with virtually the same list in 6th.

my thoughts;
at 1750 i'm running belial, 5 deathwing squads and 2 3 man ravenwing squads with attack bikes.
around here, DWA has been ruled to go over the 50% limit, so i'm reserving 6 units and deploying 4. if you have to go to 5 and 5, one of the DW squads should start on the board but have a cyclone.

So;
Belial - 190

DW Squad - assault cannon, chainfist - 245
DW Squad - assault cannon, chainfist - 245
DW Squad - assault cannon, chainfist - 245
DW Squad - assault cannon, chainfist - 245
DW Squad - assault cannon, chainfist - 245

RWAS - 2 meltas, mmab, meltabombs - 160
RWAS - 2 meltas, mmab, meltabombs - 160

1735 - meaning you have wiggle room for that backfield sitting cyclone (if the DWA ruling doesn't go your way), or some thunder hammers.

On thunder hammer/storm shield; 1 is not enough. its easily countered by both movement and intelligent use of the wound pool. You start adding more THSS to counter this and you do a couple of things;
- you make your squad prohibitively expensive
- you waste twin linked firepower on the turn you DWA. Given that this army tends to live or die by the effectiveness of its alpha strike, this dilutes it too much
- if you go all in on the SS, you give up split fire. I cannot explain enough about how much more effective this has made my deathwing. engaging 10 targets instead of 5 (yes, there are some dice rolls involved) is outstanding. On top of this, firing the assault cannon at a rhino for a KP, the storm bolters at a tactical squad and then CHARGING the tacticals for another potential KP is huge. yes, this is illegal. both would be valid targets for assault because both we targets in the shooting phase.

On AP2; so without that sweet 3++, you are at the mercy of plasma fire, and any other ap2 your opponent can muster (demolisher cannons and executioners make you cry). This is why target priority, placement and suicidal bikes are absolutely key. a twin linked assault cannon will generate 0.59 glances and 1.18 pens against AV10. the squad with him will generate 1.185 glances and belial generates 0.32 glances. Add this up and you get 3HP worth of damage on a no scatter deep strike unit - enough to rear armour most tanks. you can of course split fire and rely on your other assault cannons to take the other HP. you also have roving melta guns, multimeltas and meltabomb toting sargeants to take advantage of any near placements by your opponent. Focus on those units that can dish out large amounts of AP2 in the first 2 turns and your life gets a lot easier.
alternatively (and i've only done this once), find the points for the FNP banner. Dropping a ravenwing squad should do it. A storm shield saves 4 out of 6 ap2 wounds. a 5+/5+ saves 3.33 out of 6. So, more effective against small arms fire, only slightly less effective against plasma, but does jack all against lascannons, melta guns, rail guns etc. I found this prohibitively expensive in the one game i did use it, as well as only having 4 scoring units without the fire support to back them up.

On Placement; This should really be split into a couple of parts.
Objectives; You have no deckchair units, you don't have 50-100 points spare in the list to have a scout squad on the home objective. so you go balls to the walls. you push your objectives into his deployment zone, or if they have to be in your own deployment zone, as far foward as possible. you're going to be deep striking and pushing at him from turn 1, so don't go leaving objectives far out of the way that he can sneak a unit onto. Unless you are playing the scouring and can afford to drop one of your melta toting units out of the fight.
Deep Strike; it goes without saying that you should keep your squads in mutual support of each other. this has been deathwing mantra since 5th edition. engaging/focus firing/charging 5 terminators is not a scary prospect. when they have 15-20 mates who can counter charge and fire back, its a different prospect.
Hit a flank. have your whole army focus against a portion of his. dive into combats in turn 2 to roll up his army. have the ravenwing assist in combats so they can run units down (because TDA doesn't do that).

On Melta Guns; melta guns have really died in the competitive arena over here because of the new vehicle rules and changes in army composition. Yet "anti-meta" armies rocking multiple land raiders could really cause problems. A melta gun will still kill a tank on a penetrating hit 50% of the time and when you have a limited number of firing units, this efficiency can be vital. There's a compelling argument for plasma guns on the ravenwing here but the meltas aren't letting me down just yet. YMMV.

On Ravenwing Knights; For a mere 9 points more on the ravenwing squad you can have 4 ravenwing knights, who also have teleport homers, have skilled riders and have more shooting and combat punch. Couple of reasons why I haven't tried them yet:
- they are £30 stirling for 3 models
- the 4 units of ravenwing become 2 units of black knights. This limits teleport homer options and if the DWA ruling doesn't go your way, means deploying more DW on the board, which you don't really want. They are also easier to kill if you don't have decent terrain. they do make for better KP options though. It's worth trying if you know the DWA rule is in your favour. They still get chewed up and spat out by heldrakes, which the deathwing don't care about.

On Deathwing Knights; this is a very specific army build. It drops down in your face, it unloads a hail of fire getting first blood and crippling your anti terminator weaponry, then it tries to survive the grind of attrition for the rest of the game. Deathwing Knights drop down and do...nothing. They don't score, so its easier to focus fire on other terminators for the win. oh, and THEY DON'T SCORE. I can't see how they fit into this army.

On DWA; if you have decent terrain on the board and your opponent lacks the alpha strike units necessary to elimintate all the ravenwing, it is very beneficial to go second and DWA in the first turn. You negate a turn of shooting from your opponent and gain a full 5 turns of shooting yourself. this is a good thing. It is also the only viable way of beating demon armies packed with flamers because if you're down first, they end you. simple as that.
If you are VERY confident, choosing to DWA turn 2 and negating 2 turns of shooting can be very beneficial but that is a risky move against mobile opponents.

[Brother Immolator]

Personally I believe hamer squads are now obselete with the advent of deathwing knights. Their pros far outweght their 2 cons (not been scorring and the lower ap value).

[Agerjag]

A solid writeup that I agree with for the most part. A few points where my experiences differ from yours:

 

Deathwing Terminators:  I have found a single storm shield to be invaluable. Put it on the sergeant and you can use L.O.S.(look out sir) to cut down on volume fire to normal termies who have the same save(try it out, even cutting the fire in half helps alot to keep him up, to take bigger hits), saving him to take the debilitating plasma, lascannon, melta shots. He also doubles as a solid choice for challenges if you have characters in the units. You lose 2 stormbolter shots, (TL on drop turn) but gain a good measure of survivability.  Ive seen these guys eat 4 out of 5 vindicator hits, and then just barely die (statistically 2/3 times he saves of course).  If you do your placements right its not too hard to ensure hes the closest to most targets movement potential(this gets harder as you get closer, or vs jetbikes, skimmers, but even then is not too bad).  I also prefer the CML over the assault cannon, but that might be because the two DW units I bring are a good amount of the anti tank that I use and assault cannons just dont cut it vs A12-13 (Need sixes on either).  This of course will vary with your list setup as AC are better in many situations.

 

Deathwing Knights:  I dont think that these guys should be discounted entirely in dual wing. Yes they do not deepstrike well, but I usually just follow my bikes up in a LR and use them to kill enemy death starts. With a Chaplin they become a really nasty cc unit. The LR provides a similar amount of fire to a DW squad for a similar cost(of course not including guys inside) and also delivers this unit right into the thick of things. As they start on the table they also help with the 50%, as my crew and I dont believe that GW gave dark angels the only way to deepstrike an entire army on turn 1(drop pods, daemons still can only get half turn 1, which is similar to our old rule as well) . (Key note, use the LR as Heavy Support as you usually have the slots, that way its scoring in BIg Guns and you dont have to pay the 30 points for DW vehicle if you dont want to). This also helps in the situation where daemons are trying to wipe you out before you get to DS as LR filled with storm shield it tough for them to crack before you at least get your other deepstrikers.

[riddles]

Some things I'd like to provide a rebutal to;

Deathwing Terminators:  I have found a single storm shield to be
invaluable. Put it on the sergeant and you can use L.O.S.(look out sir)
to cut down on volume fire to normal termies who have the same save(try
it out, even cutting the fire in half helps alot to keep him up, to take
bigger hits), saving him to take the debilitating plasma, lascannon,
melta shots. He also doubles as a solid choice for challenges if you
have characters in the units. You lose 2 stormbolter shots, (TL on drop
turn) but gain a good measure of survivability.  Ive seen these guys eat
4 out of 5 vindicator hits, and then just barely die (statistically 2/3
times he saves of course).  If you do your placements right its not too
hard to ensure hes the closest to most targets movement potential(this
gets harder as you get closer, or vs jetbikes, skimmers, but even then
is not too bad).

the math is sound. i don't disagree. but, to say that it isn't hard to
ensure that the THSS is closest is a bit of a stretch in my experience.
Unless your squads are walking and you string out in a line, most units
with ap2 have the mobility to get around him. As for LOS, there's only
so many times you can make that 4+. statistically speaking, he'll pass 1
in 2, so you can only rely on LOS to bounce 1 wound to another
terminator. and that will likely be before the AP2 comes in. is it worth
it for the loss in shots (bear in mind that when you bounce a wound off
to another terminator you lose more shots). If points are tight in a
list, I think THSS are the first thing to go, because chainfists are
very good insurance against dreads and land raiders.

I don't deny he's a decent challenge monkey. but that *can* be mitigated
as anything that's scary in a challenge should be getting gunned down.
or counter charged by belial, who isn't a slouch in combat himself.

I also prefer the CML over the assault cannon, but that might be
because the two DW units I bring are a good amount of the anti tank that
I use and assault cannons just dont cut it vs A12-13 (Need sixes on
either).  This of course will vary with your list setup as AC are better
in many situations.

so...when looking at advice for a specific list that brings 5 DW squads,
you compare it to something that brings 2 DW squads? OK, i'll let that
one go. I'm presuming that your DW units are 10 man to get as only 2
CMLs are not a good amount of anti tank.



That aside, the numbers for assault cannon and CML vs AV;

AV10

AC - 2.66 hits, 0.44 glance, 0.88 pen

CML - 1.33 hits, 0.22 glance, 0.88 pen



AV11

AC - 2.66 hits, 0.44 glance, 0.44 pen

CML - 1.33 hits, 0.22 glance, 0.66 pen



AV12

AC - 2.66 hits, 0 glance, 0.44 pen

CML - 1.33 hits, 0.22 glance, 0.44 pen



AV13

AC - 2.66 hits, 0.14 glance, 0.295 pen

CML - 1.33 hits, 0.22 glance, 0.22 pen



AV14

AC - 2.66 hits, 0.14 glance, 0.14 pen

CML - 1.33 hits, 0.22 glance, 0 pen



So against AV12 and 13, where you think assault cannons don't cut it,
the AC causes 0.44/0.435 HP worth of damage and the CML causes 0.66/0.44
HP worth of damage. The CML is better against AV12, but the AC will
penetrate more often, which increases the chance of the one shot kill.
They are the same against AV11 and the AC is better against AV10 and
AV14.

Given that with deep strike, you can hit side or rear armour and that
the assault cannon benefits more from twin linked, if the squad deep
strikes in, its AC every time. If they're walking, the range of the CML
wins out. but it is more expensive.

 

Deathwing Knights:  I dont think that these guys should be
discounted entirely in dual wing. Yes they do not deepstrike well, but I
usually just follow my bikes up in a LR and use them to kill enemy
death starts. With a Chaplin they become a really nasty cc unit.

you're looking at 625 points for that unit. which doesn't leave much
room for bikes and the obligatory belial/azrael/sammiel. But yes, it is a
face crushing unit. for an army built around it. And how many scoring
units do you have again? As i said above, if you're going for the in
your face DWA army, DWK take away far more than they give.

The LR provides a similar amount of fire to a DW squad for a
similar cost(of course not including guys inside) and also delivers this
unit right into the thick of things. As they start on the table they
also help with the 50%, as my crew and I dont believe that GW gave dark
angels the only way to deepstrike an entire army on turn 1(drop pods,
daemons still can only get half turn 1, which is similar to our old rule
as well)

Nothing wrong with land raiders. They are boss, fluffy, and generally
kewl. I agree that taking them in heavy support is the way forward. you
need those extra scoring units in big guns.

As for the all deep strike turn one. the all terminator army is both
fluffy (for the narrative!) and it sucks without support units because
it doesn't have enough guns or bodies. Arguing intent is debateable when
there's 2 clear ways to read the rule. but it is something players
should be aware of.



I think we're talking about 2 different ways to run doublewing, which is
great. Makes a huge difference from the last book where it was
"THSS/CML squads, add typhoons and predators. walk onto objectives,
don't die"

[undeadfilth]

Well, I'm glad ass cannons seem to be the way to go, I really like them twin linked:) I wrote up a different list and will probably post it up later(going to bed now). I'm normally not a fan of terminators in marine armies just because their cost tends to deter me, but with DA I'm actually kind of excited to run them. I was originally going to run a full ravenwing force but soon realized that the full potential of the ravenwing can't be realized without Deathwiing support. Should be all kinds of fun:)

[facmanpob]

Interesting thoughts expressed in this thread. My gut instinct is that as the points increase the payback from Deathwing gets greater in a Dualwing army. So I'm looking at being Ravenwing heavy at 1250 points, and Deathwing heavy at 2000 points, with the balance point being somewhere around the 1650 mark. Dunno why, but I just like the look of RW at lower point levels, whereas the moment I can start shoving Belial and 25 terminators down someones throat (as in Riddles' 1750 list above) I switch to DW. :)

[Brother Immolator]

I feel that till you reach 2000pts the deathraven built is a bit lackluster.  You cant balance well enough noumber of boddies anti horde and anti tank. At least according to my tastes. You need greenwing elements and that only means less terminators and bikes. Hit the 2000 mark though and thats an entire different story.