Dislike the thought of taking allies

[daveclark890]

Is it just me or does anyone else dislike the idea of the MOST POWERFUL beings in the 40K Universe having to run off to find a wall to hide behind or some squishy guardsmen in a tank just to bring down fliers?!?!

 

In the BRB it has a weapon listing and it says in there that Imperial Missile Launchers have Sky Fire. I wish they would hurry up and push that out in FAQ/Updates.

 

Does anyone know if they included it in the DA book?

[dswanick]

Is it just me or does anyone else dislike the idea of the MOST POWERFUL beings in the 40K Universe having to run off to find a wall to hide behind or some squishy guardsmen in a tank just to bring down fliers?!?!

Hyperios Air Defense Battery, Imperial Armour Aeronautica, pg.39

Barring that (if your group is anti-FW), an ADL w/ Quadgun manned by a base Lone Wolf in Power Armor is only 120pts.

Bt, yeah, I feel your pain. 

In the BRB it has a weapon listing and it says in there that Imperial Missile Launchers have Sky Fire. I wish they would hurry up and push that out in FAQ/Updates.

If GW were more interested in a balanced game than profit$, they would have errata'd all old codexes to get Skyfire missiles until their codex gets updated. 

Does anyone know if they included it in the DA book?

I do believe it is.

[Squark]

Actually... Flak missiles wouldn't really work for Space Wolves. Thing is, they're purchased as an upgrade for each individual missile launcher. Which gets expensive real fast. 5 man flak missile tactical squads are great for Dark Angels because you can spam them, and Dark Angels tactical marines are cheap to begin with. Flak Missile Devastators/Long Fangs, though, are a trap. They're very expensive, and you don't have interceptor, which means you've painted a target on the units head for the baleflamer when it comes on the board. Poof! ~Your 200 point flier defense just went up in smoke. A 5 man flak missile tactical squad, on the other hand, may lose one tactical squad, but the other 5 are fine and ready to shoot the Stupid heldrake down on your turn. So a flak missile errata wouldn't actually help us. Well, I guess you could take three packs of Long Fangs each with 2-3 Flak Missile wolves in them each. 170 points for the unit now (More if you give the wolves without flak missiles more expensive weapons), but you do have the redundancy you need unless your opponent prioritizes taking down the long fangs or multiple Heldrakes show up in one turn.

 

 

And fluff wise, Space Marines do depend heavily on Guardsmen/PDF and automated defenses. They just don't have the manpower (107 marines +Techmarines (Remember, there's 1 in every rhino and 2 in every battle tank) and librarians in a full strength company according to the codex, not counting the vehicles or fleet personnel, and maybe 150 marines in a typical great company?) for conventional warfare. Marines are shock troops who don't recoup losses quickly. If they fought in mostly pitched battles on their own, they'd rapidly run out of marines

[Jarl Deathwolf]

@ Squark. Agreed. The Marines hit hard and fast, but, in the end, it is the unrelenting numbers of the Guard which allow the marines to win. "What I cannot crush with words I will crush with the tanks of the Imperial Guard."

 

As for the flakk missiles, I'm not too impressed. If I had the option to take them, i probably still wouldn't. No interceptor means that I have a few LF that can't do anything against the more mundane threats of the enemy. Right now, I haven't faced anyone with more than 1 flyer, (they being so expensive in points), so my single Icarus Lascannon works well, esp. when Alrik the Rune Seer casts Prescience on my Long Fangs. Besides, the ADL has amazing synergy with the LF anyway, so it has proven a worthwhile purchase nearly every time I've fielded it.

 

Therefore, when I take allies it is either Guard so I can field a Leman Russ to maintain our heritage or Blood Angels Death Company so that the 13th may fight beside us.

[Squark]

Err... flak missiles are an addition, not a replacement. So that's not the issue. The issue is that without interceptor, you don't get to shoot first, which means the heldrake comes on and toasts the squad.

[SamaNagol]

Take 3 units of Long Fangs with 2 Flakk missiles in each. Problem solved

[montegue]

There would be lots of ways to handle it that could be fluffy, but I don't imagine that coming to pass when they have helldrakes to sell and ADLs to get out of stock. They could easily make a Skyfire upgrade to something like a Dreadnaught, making it a more tempting choice while still sitting well with the "we fight from the ground" fluff. They could also make Flakk Missiles an option for Cyclone Missile Launchers, since we tend to have reason to take terminators. As mentioned before, shoulder mounted anti-aircraft weapons are something you can get with today's tech. Would make sense to have them in the 41st millennium, even if lost tech is part of the fluff. 

[hendrik]

since i see more and more posts cropping up concerning how we can't handle flyers here's an overview of all options we have available to us without taking allies that can take on flyers:

-just shoot the damn thing, you're bound to get a 6 sometimes. a dual plasmagun grey hunter squad should be able to put a dent into a valkyrie that just passed over and exposed his rear.

-aegis defence line: quad gun or icarus lascannon

-bastion: quad gun or icarus lascannon

-fortress of redemption: twin linked icarus lascannon

-storm eagle assault gunship (a flyer itself)

-caestus assault ram (a flyer itself)

-land raider helios (hyperios anti-aircraft variant)

-whirlwind hyperios ( mere 10 pts more than the normal whirlwind, and it comes twin linked interceptor skyfire heavy S8 ap3 missiles)

-hyperios air defence battery

-contemptor mortis pattern dreadnought

 

And this is just all of the standard 40K allowed material, if we're talking apocalyps scale you can still include the thunderhawk variants...

-

[Russ Brother 92]

since i see more and more posts cropping up concerning how we can't handle flyers here's an overview of all options we have available to us without taking allies that can take on flyers:

-just shoot the damn thing, you're bound to get a 6 sometimes. a dual plasmagun grey hunter squad should be able to put a dent into a valkyrie that just passed over and exposed his rear.

-aegis defence line: quad gun or icarus lascannon

-bastion: quad gun or icarus lascannon

-fortress of redemption: twin linked icarus lascannon

-storm eagle assault gunship (a flyer itself)

-caestus assault ram (a flyer itself)

-land raider helios (hyperios anti-aircraft variant)

-whirlwind hyperios ( mere 10 pts more than the normal whirlwind, and it comes twin linked interceptor skyfire heavy S8 ap3 missiles)

-hyperios air defence battery

-contemptor mortis pattern dreadnought

 

And this is just all of the standard 40K allowed material, if we're talking apocalyps scale you can still include the thunderhawk variants...

-

 

Apart from a couple there (namely the Fotress, Bastion and ADL which aren't particularly cheap and then require a unit to be static with them) those are FW units, which is all well and good if/when a club allows FW BUT for many, and especially tournaments FW units aren't allowed at all - even GW doesn't endorse FW allowed tournies very often (I think they've had 1-2 in the last 2-3 years)... so for myself it's great as my local allow FW as long as my opp. is happy - however many don't :(

[hendrik]

all of these units have the 40k approved stamp and as such are approved by both forgeworld and games-workshop.
here's a quote from dakka concerning the 40k approved stamp:
"IA:Aeronautica, IA:Apocalypse (second edition), IA:Apocalypse II and all FW pdf updates have a note in the front of the book stating that they are 100% official and (other than the specifically labeled Apocalypse-only stuff like superheavies) intended for use in standard games of 40k. 

Previous books are "official" in that they are a GW product and perfectly compatible with standard 40k, but it is not made explicit to the point that there can be no further dispute. 

However, tournaments are an entirely separate issue. Any individual tournament organizer can choose to allow or deny anything they want (including IA units, armies with "too many" transports, allies/fortifications/double FOC, etc), so the only way to find out of a unit is allowed is to ask the person running that specific tournament."

The problem in this case is that the player is "only" participating in games that disallow these 40k approved units. Besides tournaments there is not a single reason not to field any of these units. some don't even require you to order the forgeworld model. all hyperios variants can be easely made with games workshop parts,including the whirlwind turret

[dswanick]

all of these units have the 40k approved stamp and as such are approved by both forgeworld and games-workshop.

here's a quote from dakka concerning the 40k approved stamp:

"IA:Aeronautica, IA:Apocalypse (second edition), IA:Apocalypse II and all FW pdf updates have a note in the front of the book stating that they are 100% official and (other than the specifically labeled Apocalypse-only stuff like superheavies) intended for use in standard games of 40k. 

 

Previous books are "official" in that they are a GW product and perfectly compatible with standard 40k, but it is not made explicit to the point that there can be no further dispute. 

 

However, tournaments are an entirely separate issue. Any individual tournament organizer can choose to allow or deny anything they want (including IA units, armies with "too many" transports, allies/fortifications/double FOC, etc), so the only way to find out of a unit is allowed is to ask the person running that specific tournament."

The problem in this case is that the player is "only" participating in games that disallow these 40k approved units. Besides tournaments there is not a single reason not to field any of these units. some don't even require you to order the forgeworld model. all hyperios variants can be easely made with games workshop parts,including the whirlwind turret

If only it were so easy.  See the multi-page debate in this sites +OR+ forum about the so-called "official-ness" of Forge World rules.

 

As for all the non-Forge World options you listed, 3 of the 4 are static defenses - and not necessarily appropriate for every list or army (especially Space Wolves armies which focus on offence over static defense).  And "just shoot it down" is a hollow option - when it takes a 6 to-hit, another 6 for many volume firepower weapons to glance.

[hendrik]

the "just shoot it down" advise was more a tongue in cheeck comment ;) however, those static defences don't form a problem the way i see it.

each manned emplacement can be place near an objective in your deploymentzone and used by the grey hunter pack you're keeping there to hold the objective. the autmated empacements are even better since they don't need an operator, just deploy them in an area with good line of sight and see how well they do. 

a simple quad gun should be able to deal with 1 flyer. when facing more flyers it's only natural you'll need to adapt your list and tactics against it. and a dedicated list usually thriumphs over a balanced list. the combat monster list will outfight you, the dakka dakka lists will outshoot you etc etc. the way i see it there are a couple of options:

A) you deal with it, accept your opponents air superiority and focus on destorying the rest of his list. flyers in flyer mode have a hard time to pick optimal targets withouth having to resort to skimmer mode after 2 turns on the board. heck, if you cast up i'm sure they might even find themselves unable to target you after the turn in which they arrive. against aircraft heavy lists: these lists will have lesser boots on the ground,remember that if your opponent doens't have any models left on the board at the end of a turn it's an auto-win for you.

 

B) you adapt to your opponent and let him control how the battle goes by changing your list towards an anti flyer list.
unfortunatly space marines never will/should be the best in this. playing anti-aircraft personal is simply a role "beneath" an astartes (fluffwise) and should be outsourced to a third party (the guard, servitors, logic angines,etc) whenever possible.( I'm not saying having a space marine/a unit perform anti flyer activities is unnecessary but fluffwise the astartes would indeed outsource this when possible). this is reflected in the game quite well in my opinion. It's time to accept that space marines aren't the legions anymore that they once where, where they had a marine squad for every task,including fetching their primarch his newpaper,draining the toilets etc. space marines are now a force even more elitist then before, simply because the chapter organisation prevents them from being the mighty force they once were.

In this manner it is HIGHLY fluffwise that, in order to have a great defence against flyers the space wolves have to resort to:

I) getting rarer units, such as the hyperios air battery, a unit not as-traditionally deployed like drpopods, rhinos etc (a.k.a. the forgeworld goods)
II)outsourcing the anti flyer role to the ones that should perform this task fluffwise; the imperial guard/imperial navy (a.k.a. an allied detachment of imperial guard, allowing you to field up to 3 hydra platforms*/tanks, up to 3 vendettas/valkyries and up to 18 sabre platforms*)

 

I really don't understand why so many space wolf players complain about how we're no good against flyers. really, from a fluff point that's like complaining your shoes don't do your dishes for you....

*these are imperial armour units.

 

the simple truth is space wolves aren't designed to take on flyers, otherwise russ himself would have found a way to give us all wings!

[nurglez]

I had this issue with my Draigowing, I didn't want allies or fortifications for them. So I went for an inquisitor with prescience. Of course this was a deathstar with 5 psycannons in it :devil:

 

Twin linked weapons can help, but having no skyfire or flyers is rather difficult vs flyers (a friend of mine who plays nids has this issue too, but he can't even bring in allies :( ).

 

Anything that is twin linked, and weight of fire, can threaten flyers. Mounting up in a vehicle can counter bale flamers, or having terminators. Thats all I can suggest without allies or fortifications :(

[Squark]

Baleflamers don't care about light transports, actually- they just pop them with a vector strike and then torrent the unit that pops out from behind (stupid 360'  line of sight)

[dswanick]

Baleflamers don't care about light transports, actually- they just pop them with a vector strike and then torrent the unit that pops out from behind (stupid 360'  line of sight)

Which is why I'm leaning towards a TDA Lone Wolf manning a Quadgun.

[hendrik]

if you really want to maximise his survivability you could even have the terminator crouching down in a knee to avoid most lines of sight when he's hiding behind that aegis defense line!

[dswanick]

if you really wan't to maximise his survivablitylt you could even have the terminator crouching down in a knee to avoid most line of sight!

I dunno, that feels a lot like "modeling for advantage" to me.

[hendrik]

offcoarse it's modelling to advantage! :p  unless offcourse you make  a nice conversion of that kneeling space hulk terminator.

how resilient would the TDA lone wolf be against the current most feared flyer: the helldrake? 

[Castellan Michael]

since i see more and more posts cropping up concerning how we can't handle flyers here's an overview of all options we have available to us without taking allies that can take on flyers:

-just shoot the damn thing, you're bound to get a 6 sometimes. a dual plasmagun grey hunter squad should be able to put a dent into a valkyrie that just passed over and exposed his rear.

-aegis defence line: quad gun or icarus lascannon

-bastion: quad gun or icarus lascannon

-fortress of redemption: twin linked icarus lascannon

-storm eagle assault gunship (a flyer itself)

-caestus assault ram (a flyer itself)

-land raider helios (hyperios anti-aircraft variant)

-whirlwind hyperios ( mere 10 pts more than the normal whirlwind, and it comes twin linked interceptor skyfire heavy S8 ap3 missiles)

-hyperios air defence battery

-contemptor mortis pattern dreadnought

 

And this is just all of the standard 40K allowed material, if we're talking apocalyps scale you can still include the thunderhawk variants...

-

 

Contemptor "mortis" not in a space wolf army. I do dislike the idea of allies, and any rules written to make me buy armies I do not have any desire to run.

[dswanick]

offcoarse it's modelling to advantage! unless offcourse you make a nice conversion of that kneeling space hulk terminator.

how resilient would the TDA lone wolf be against the current most feared flyer: the helldrake?

Best case scenario - Helldrake Vector Strikes your TDALW and Flames your TDALW & Quadgun on arrival:

d3+1 = 3X S7/AP3 hits = 2.499 Wounds(S7 v T4) = .417 unSaved Wounds(2+ Armor) = .278 unSaved Wounds suffered (5+ FNP)

1X S6/AP3 hits on Lone Wolf = .833 Wounds (S6 v T4) = .139 unSaved Wounds (2+ Armor) = .093 unSaved Wounds suffered (5+ FNP)

Grand Total = .371 unSaved Wounds suffered

1X S6/AP3 hits on Quadgun = .333 Wounds suffered (S6 v T7) = .333 unSaved Wounds suffered (no Armor Save)

and now the Helldrake has exposed its AV10 to the Quadguns BS4 4X S7/Twin-linked shots

4X BS4TL S7 shots = 3.556 hits = 2.372 hull points lost/1.778 Penetrating hits (S7 v AV10)

Worst case scenario - Helldrake enters play in range of the Quadgun but does not Fly over, does Flame the units then Vector Strikes on its second turn:

4X BS4TL S7 Interceptor shots = 3.556 hits = 1.184 hull points lost/.594 Penetrating hits (S7 v AV12)

1X S6/AP3 hits on Lone Wolf = .833 Wounds (S6 v T4) = .139 unSaved Wounds (2+ Armor) = .093 unSaved Wounds suffered (5+ FNP)

1X S6/AP3 hits on Quadgun = .333 Wounds suffered (S6 v T7) = .333 unSaved Wounds suffered (no Armor Save)

then the Helldrake flys over and Vector Strikes the Quadgun on its next turn

d3+1 = 3X S7/AP3 hits on Quadgun = 1.5 Wounds suffered (S7 v T7) = 1.5 unSaved Wounds (no Armor Save)

1X S6/AP3 hits on the Quadgun = .333 Wounds suffered (S6 v T7) = .333 unSaves Wounds (no Armor Save)

1X S6/AP3 hits on Lone Wolf = .833 Wounds (S6 v T4) = .139 unSaved Wounds (2+ Armor) = .093 unSaved Wounds suffered (5+ FNP)

Tactically, there is no way for the Helldrake to bypass the Quadguns range of 48". It only moves 36" and can't kill the Quadgun by Flaming it alone (it would take ~3 turns to remove 1W). The Helldrake has to Vector Strike the Quadgun to ensure a kill and will take at least one turn of shooting in return.

If the Chaos player makes the mistake of Vector Striking on the turn he arrives from Reserve he exposes his RAV10 to your Interceptor fire, risking a 50% chance of having his Drake shot at before getting to flame your emplacment. With a good chance of losing the Drake to the Interceptor fire.

If the Chaos player is smart, he'll use his first turn to soften up your emplacement with the Baleflamer before making an attack run. He's highly likely to kill the Quadgun with a combination of Baleflamer hits and Vector Strikes, and his risk of losing the model remains the same. Of course, by now it's turn at least turn 4 before the Helldrake can target anything else and this just leaves your Lone Wolf free to find something else to kill.

And either way the TDA Lone Wolf will statistically take one Wound for every three turns the Helldrake Flames and Vector Strikes him.