question on dual wing hq choice

[tomsev]

Im currently building a dual wing list (deathwing, ravenwing).

Im stuck on my hq choice do i a take azrael who he alone unlocks both as troops but then we get to the problem of where do i put him...

Or do i use both Sammael and Belail, therefore spending almost double on my hq slot but i feel i gain in synergie...

What to do?? 

 

(edit rename as another tread had the same name)

[Azrael Turnbull]

Well, the only thing Belial provides that Azrael does not is a Deathwing Command squad and a perfect Deep Strike. Sammael is similar with his Ravenwing Command squad.

 

Neither of the two are that important, however, since any command squad can carry one of the sacred banners (which have been established to be the Dark Angels meta item). Azrael will not only save on points, but give LD 10 to your army and allow you to choose your own Warlord Trait. Half of the time, this trait will not make much difference but, more often than not, it's a game changer. Just because Terminators can Deep Strike does not mean that they have to. If you are Deep Striking, the dual wing will mean you should have plenty of Ravenwing Bikes to centre on.

 

Azrael's weaknesses are his lack of AP2 (you have Terminators and Black Knights for that!) and his vulnerability to Instant Death. The last time I used Azrael, I took a command squad with a banner whom remained at the back. Azrael, however, decided he wanted to cut things up at the front line, so went with some Deathwing Knights in a Land Raider. T5 protects you from most instant death, but your positioning and charging will have to be very careful. It doesn't matter too much, however. When not smiting, the Deathwing Knight's AP 4 will be made up by Azrael's numerous Str 6 AP 3 attacks.

 

You also gain another HQ slot. For their points cost, Divination Librarian's/Ezekiel are always worth their money.

 

In short, my advice would be to take Azrael in all instances you plan on dual winging.

[Captain Idaho]

You know it's possible to take an army themed around Deathwing and Ravenwing with only Belial or Samuel. Given the points values of some of their specific units it's entirely probable you won't get much more than half a dozen units on the table for a 1500pts game.

 

Take Belial and take Deathwing to make a turn 1 attack which puts opponents in difficult positions, and use all 3 Fast Attack slots on Ravenwing. So your bikes don't score, but then you saved some points on 2 characters or a single more expensive 1 who requires an expensive Land Raider to work alongside Deathwing well.

[facmanpob]

Yeah, the hidden cost of Azreal is the points for a Land Raider, which current thinking has determined is the only way to get him safely to the front lines of a Dualwing Army. Azreal as the anchor of a multiwing gunline army is different I think.

 

I spent some time earlier in the week costing up different Dualwing armies, and came to the conclusion that Sammael and scoring Ravenwing, coupled with non-scoring Deathwing Knights was my favoured way of running things at around 1500 points. At 2000 points I would happily take both Sammy and Belial.

[Gman]

I think either Belial or Sammy alone is just fine. Which one depends on the primary focus of the army. So if you plan to take more termi units than biker units and the army is built around that, take Belial. If the reverse is true take Sammy. The thing is, the termi and bikes workd good together sure, but typically, one is the primary backbone of the list, while the other is there as a support for the other. Until you get around 2000 point games, then, taking both, or Azrael with a command unit, banner in LRC is a good option.  :)

[Kobrakei]

I think Sammy is a better choice than Belial personally. I think he's a bigger threat on the table and can have both decent shooting and a good HtH presence. He buffs a RAS nicely, giving them Fearless and Skilled Rider, and his Warlord trait can be great for providing an annoying Hit and Run unit. All while having Eternal Warrior

 

Belial is ok...but really he's just not as impressive. His Deep Strike ability can be useful, but nothing a RAS can't provide, and as you will have a mixed wing this shouldn't be an issue getting your DW into place. His shooting is mostly meh, and although he can murder marines in combat it only takes one power fist to kill him stone dead. 

 

It's really your call, but for 10 pts more I would always choose Sammy

[facmanpob]

I agree regarding Belial, which is why I would field him with DWK to try to maintain the T5 buff. But yeah, I prefer Sammy's as the lone HQ.