Create a Sisters unit (for fun!)

[Naminé]

A question about Penitent Engines. A lot of people don't take them because they're only usable (apparently) when they are within range of the enemy. What is it that makes them "meh" rather than holy ! Lack of speed? Lack of armour? Is there a way of making them better? Or is it that because the "pilot" has transgressed against the Emperor that the PE shouldn't have armour thereby making them vulnerable?

I've always imagined them being a clanking unstoppable force, in some ways more terrifying than a Dreadnought, because the "face" of the pilot of a Dreadnought is hidden. Seeing a former "sinner" screaming pleas of mercy and oaths of death and pain to their enemies, wired up to a manic machine of death would be even more horrible to witness.

Any thoughts? Are they "fixable"? Or should the rules for them be torn up and rewritten?

I agree they are very imposing and terrifying as a concept, so I think adding extra armour on might compromise that whole vibe. Perhaps some kind of psychological effects? For example they could cause fear or maybe the mere presence of them on the table distracts the enemy units.

For example, any enemy unit within 18" must pass a leadership test or it must shoot at the Pen Engine. It would make their role as a distraction unit all the more defined, and let them tank. You could even call the rule 'Threat'.

As for mobility issues, I think ignoring difficult terrain like monstrous creatures would be extremely useful for them.

[Sabathiel]

The problem I have with Penitent Engines is that they are a heavy choice.  If they were an elite choice, I think more people would take them.

[*Furyou Miko]

I'm pretty sure Sabathiel's right on that one - the heavy support slots hold some of our best assets, while Elites are left to languish (as in many codices) with a couple of lacklustre choices with good potential.

[Naminé]

eh... I think they are too similar in role and design to take the same slot as Repentia.  Tbh I think it was intentional to allow us to field nothing but pens and Repentia if we wanted, for a crazy assault army.

 

Actually I might try that one time, just for fun :p

[mince on toast]

^^^ that sounds fun, so much potential carnage expensive (pts & $) but fun

[AllistorPreist]

I would like to see some anti-psyker stuff return to the armory. I am picturing something like a reliquary that acts as a psychic hood or even fills the roll of a psyker (ort of) be either spending faith points to gain army wide or unit targeted effects or some such. Off the top of my head, it would go somthing like this:

 

0-1 Mobile Reliquary

Vehicle Type: Tank BS 4 Armor: F13 S12 R10 HP3

Weapons: TBD

 

Every order of the Adepta Sororitas safeguard a number of relics sacred to the order, the Ecclesiarcy, and humanity at large. Most of these relics are safely stored in secret vaults throughout the galaxy, but with the blessing of the Ecclesiarch some are taken into the field of battle to bolster the faithfull. When the faithful seek compfort and aid from these reliquaries, the miracles already assoiciated with the sisters of battle go from amazing to truely miraculous. To protect these sacred object, they are encased in ceramite and moved in mighty tanks of the empire.

 

Reliquary: When the reliquary is activated, the player may spend a faith point to do one of the following.

 

1. Automaticly activate an act of faith for a faithful unit within (what 12"?) without spending additional faith or requiring a roll.

2. A unit within X" is counted as automatically winning the Assault phase.

3. Psionic tests within X" automatically trigger a perils of the warp roll, the psionic power fails (ok, maybe just one of those, still deciding)

4. Target unit gains the Feel no Pain special rule this round.

 

OK, those powers are kinda just plucked from nowhere, but you get the idea. It competes for our precious Faith Points, so it would take a lot of fine tuning to hit that medium of - worth not using rending heavy bolters vs why would I every use faith anywhere else?  4-6 powers and, ideally 1 or 2 passives (unit within X rerolls moral or something) and one, hey, you got 6 faith points this round? whammy for the lucky rolls.

 

Not sure what slot to put it in, everything but troops are kind of overcrowded, but I based the first draft on a tank which would put it in heavy. Elite may be better. Looking at the raven wing dark talon and the statuary on the DA land speeder party bus, I see a lot of modeling potential.

 

Thoughts?

[derpasaurus]

Regarding Penitent Engines, yeah, I think the rules are built because of the fluff. AV 11 open topped, no good outside of 6 inches? Sounds like they're meant to be shot to hell. (Literally!?)

However, if you can get them in (a lot of squads may only have 1 or 2 weapons that can threaten them, even at AV11) BURN BABY BURN. Then just smash them in CC. I've used them to mixed results, but they're just soooo damn fun when they work, I'm definitely building a squad of them eventually. I agree that they should be Elites, I mean they're basically cracked up Dreadnoughts. Those are Elites, and even more dangerous, and more heavily armored. (with even more options) Derp moment, on GW's part? Or maybe because you can squad them out and you can't with Dreads, they moved them on purprose.

 

I would also love any anti-psyker stuff. Even if it's just a bonus to Deny the WItch, or even a reroll, still on a 6. 

[Naminé]

Regarding Penitent Engines, yeah, I think the rules are built because of the fluff. AV 11 open topped, no good outside of 6 inches? Sounds like they're meant to be shot to hell. (Literally!?)

 

However, if you can get them in (a lot of squads may only have 1 or 2 weapons that can threaten them, even at AV11) BURN BABY BURN. Then just smash them in CC. I've used them to mixed results, but they're just soooo damn fun when they work, I'm definitely building a squad of them eventually. I agree that they should be Elites, I mean they're basically cracked up Dreadnoughts. Those are Elites, and even more dangerous, and more heavily armored. (with even more options) Derp moment, on GW's part? Or maybe because you can squad them out and you can't with Dreads, they moved them on purprose.

 

I would also love any anti-psyker stuff. Even if it's just a bonus to Deny the WItch, or even a reroll, still on a 6. 

 

It would be quite fluffy if all sisters could deny the witch on a 5+ :p  I like that idea.

 

Sometimes dreadnoughts are heavy options, and sometimes they are even troops!  The only reason they are elites in most armies is because yet again it allows you to field a full armoured list, and it fleshes out the elite options in those codices.  Generally it happens in armies that already have tons of Heavy support options.

Now the sisters have only 2 heavy options and 2 elites (without the pen engine of course).  So, do they put them in with the elites where they do pretty much exactly what the Repentia do, or do they add some armour to the heavy options, whereas otherwise you'd only have one armoured choice.  In addition, it gives a radically different option to the shooting-only heavy options that you would be left with otherwise.

 

I'm just pointing out the logic they probably used.  What IS missing is a shooting option for elites.  Perhaps some kind of small autocannon teams or something?  High strength long-range options might make elites worth taking :p

[derpasaurus]

Yeah, currently I have only one Repentia squad, and Celestians just seem totally pointless. Elites are apparently the part that's hardest to justify in most Codices. 

[Sabathiel]

Move Celestians to troops.  Also if we include forgeworld then sisters now have additional Heavy (and dedicated transport).

[*Furyou Miko]

The only reason anyone thinks of Celestians as a good choice for a Troops unit is because of the funky layout of the WD codex that puts them on the same page as Battle Sisters. apart from in the HSF, they make no sense in that role.

[CaptainHelion]

I'm not so sure about Celestians as Troops either. I'm rather inclined to agree with Miko, and give them the option to all take power weapons. They essentially cognate to SM Veterans, so they really should be treated as such. 

If they could do that, maybe I'd actually take them.

[Spacefrisian]

On that note, i dont understand why Dominions are listed as fast attack, they aint fast moving and would be better suited as elites, but we find a similar unit in that spot already.

 

What was GW thinking with that?

[*Furyou Miko]

Dominions are Fast Attack initially because they were just the Sisters equivalent to Trukk Boyz, Raider Squads, etc - back in 3rd edition, for the first few codices there was a pseudo-rule that said "Every army has a fast attack choice that's basically their troops choice with a compulsory transport".

 

When they were updated, they lost the compulsory transport and half their special weapons, but they gained Scout, meaning they can start closer to the enemy or outflank. Since they're still ideally suited to being mounted in vehicles, they do generally turn out pretty fast, or at least have the ability to hit the enemy where it hurts from an unexpected angle. Dominions are fine in Fast Attack.

 

Celestians were a bad decision on GW's part anyway, but I can see why they did it. Back in the 2e rules, Sisters had access to a much more limited selection of units;

 

Characters

Canoness

Confessor

Sister Superior

Missionary

Squads

Battle Sisters (5 with bolters, may take: additional Sister with heavy weapon, additional Sister with special weapon)

Frateris Militia (5-20, I think, Militia with assorted weapons)

Seraphim (4-6 Seraphim with hand flamers or bolt pistols)

Support

Rhino

Immolator

 

The Canoness had the ability to take a Seraphim squad as a Bodyguard. If she didn't have a jump pack, they could exchange their jump pack and bolt pistols for bolters. They could also take a banner.

 

When they wrote the codex update for the 3rd edition rulebook, they turned the Bodyguard into "Celestians", an Elites unit. I believe they were the only Elites unit at the time. They also removed the Frateris Militia, although I believe Confessors were still a part of the army. Sisters Superior were moved to individual unit entries just like exarchs and sergeants for the other armies. Celestians still had the same stats as Seraphim, but were given generic infantry upgrades instead of the Seraphim upgrades. At the same time, Seraphim were limited to Bolt Pistols, only able to take a limited number of Hand Flamers as 'special weapons'. Because the 40k rulebook lists stripped out everyone's special rules except ATSKNF (and maybe granted Combat Squads, I don't know how Marines worked in 2e), Seraphim pistols became regular Twin-linked, and the Rites of Battle vanished. Battle Sister squads were changed to the "one special and one heavy weapon" layout we recognise on most Imperial squads today, and Dominions and Retributors were created (Dominions as the "Troops in a Truck" squad, and Retributors as a direct analogue to Devastators).

 

Then we got the Chapter Approved list, and things got a little better with the inclusion of Exorcists and some special rules, like Hit and Run, although we lost Confessors at last. Then, finally, the Witch Hunter codex came out and the Sisters were finally in the form we recognise today. Celestians gained Holy Hatred and the accompanying "CC specialist" designation and were still crap, Seraphim got their Inferno Pistols, Acts of Faith were worked out and Battle Sisters got to take two special weapons instead of a special and a heavy. On the downside, everyone was given the impression that somehow, the Sororitas are the chamber militant of the Ordo Hereticus and our Ecclesiarchy links were obscured in the murk.

 

Anyway, that's the long version of why Celestians are just Seraphim with the wrong gear. :D

[Hanska]

Yes. Celestians are just pseudo-seraphim.

 

I wish canoness still had the seraphim pistols special rule like back then. Akimbo-plasma super nun!

 

And to nitpick Miko: The bodyguard came stock with bolters and could buy jump packs and swap for dual bolt pistols for extra point cost.

And yes, SM could split squads in 2nd.

[AllistorPreist]

Celestians as troops makes as much sense as sense as Immortals as troops, so despite them being elite troops, I am ok with them being in the Troops slot.

 

As far as changes to Celestians, giving them all power weapons still leaves them in direct competition with the battle conclave. Celestians would be more expensive than the conclave, and the only real advantage would be transports.

 

Saving Celestians I think requires a new focus. What could they do that is not done by another unit better?

 

I think giving them access to all of the acts of faith would make them kick-ass-awesome. It would give them versatility that would make them a viable coice over Repentia or a battler conclave without making either obsolete.

 

But again, this is just off the top of my head stuff. Balancing is a whole different trick.

 

Speaking of which, what about independant characters who bring different acts of faith to different units. Take a Sister of the Sacred Martyr HQ and she gives the entire army access to the Spirit of the Martyr act or faith (or maybe just a unit), Sister of the Immortal Lance and she gives a unit Devine Guidance. Kinda like Sergeant Telion for faith. You could even use it to add completely new acts of faith, but this is really just my way of getting 20 devine guidance bolters again.

[Hanska]

Theme of the day but nitpicking again:

 

"and the only real advantage would be transports."

No. Conclaves can take transports. The advantage would be not having to take a specific HQ. Not that you don't wan't to take Jacobus as the second one if not as the first one.

[AllistorPreist]

Theme of the day but nitpicking again:

 

"and the only real advantage would be transports."

No. Conclaves can take transports. The advantage would be not having to take a specific HQ. Not that you don't wan't to take Jacobus as the second one if not as the first one.

I think more of the lorehounds here appriciate the nitpicking, and the rulemongers. I say keep to it!

[*Furyou Miko]

It's not nit-picking, it's careful attention to detail. :D

 

As for comparing Celestians to Immortals, with the change in Necron fluff it does make sense - Fluff wise, it used to be Warriors were soldiers and Immortals were elite shock troops. Now, Warriors are cannon fodder minions, Immortals are soldiers and Lychguard are elite shock troops.

 

A similar change in Celestian fluff isn't really possible - you'd have to demote Battle Sisters, and that doesn't really make sense either.

 

The other thing that could 'save' Celestians is to make it clearer that they're a ranged elite unit. Swap Hand of the Emperor's strength boost for something shooty and give them Special Issue Ammunition or something equivalent. Maybe give them Twin-Link and Shred - Dominions and Seraphim are still viable because Dominions are cheaper and get more special weapons, and Seraphim are Seraphim even if they're not the only ones with rerolls to wound.

[vonny]

Yes. Celestians are just pseudo-seraphim.

 

I wish canoness still had the seraphim pistols special rule like back then. Akimbo-plasma super nun!

 

And to nitpick Miko: The bodyguard came stock with bolters and could buy jump packs and swap for dual bolt pistols for extra point cost.

And yes, SM could split squads in 2nd.

You don't need to. Pistols have the gunslinger special rule in the main rulebook. Everyone who wields two pistols gets to fire both now, and still gain an extra attack in the close combat phase for 2 hand weapons.

[Hanska]

Holy corpse on the throne!

So it seems. I totally missed that, thanks vonny.

[CaptainHelion]

Replacing Hand of the Emperor with something Shooty (Maybe granting Precision Shots, or Ignores Cover?), and Special Ammunition could be cool. I'd be inclined to go the whole hog, and give them the option of combi-bolters too, ala Sternguard.

But the problem there is that they're basically Sternguard, with an Act of Faith. There's not much special going on there at all.

Mostly, what I'd like is more options, and an Act of Faith that isn't wholly irrelevant to how the unit plays.

[*Furyou Miko]

Well, as it is they're just Battle Sisters with an extra WS and A.

[CaptainHelion]

Hmm, that's true. They do already lack distinction. Maybe we could give them an AoF that affects either the Shooting or the Assault phase, and have the war gear options to gear them out as either assault Celestians or Shooty Celestians? 

[Sabathiel]

Give Celestians Serissa and increase their Initive to 4.  This allows them to deal with hordes.