jimbo1701 Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Hi folks. I haven't combed my Codex extensively yet so I thought I'd ask if anyone else has seen mention of sapphon, namaan or bethor in the new book. Even if it's a footnote somehwere. Would be a shame if theyre no longer included. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Not even a footnote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo1701 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 Not even a footnote. Â Cheers - saved me a search. That's a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I am having this strange feeling that Asmodai is now our chief interrogator chaplain. In the army org chart the title master of sanctity is missing and replaced by the title master interrogator, which is Asmodais title. Perhaps they decided to splatter Shaphon somewhere. Also depsite Bethor having a new miny he is not even mentioned...And Naaman too is missing from the battle of Pscina. Strange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Yes, it's very odd. A bit of a downer in an otherwise excellent codex. I don't think Sapphon is gone, though, due to the fact he's mentioned as the Grand Master of Chaplains in Thorpe's Ravenwing novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAG42 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Serephacis or how ever it's spelled is in the errata/faq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Serephacis or how ever it's spelled is in the errata/faq. Â No, we are talking about Saphon the master of sanctity. Â FericiousBeast : I havent read ravenwing yet. He was present in angels of darkness too i think. My thoughts stem from the codex not giving a master of sanctity in the force org chart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The new codex was a mixed bag of cool new stuff and removed cool old stuff. I wish they had kept to the old format, especially in the ancient battles section. All in all, it feels they truncated some of the entries for the sake of the purrty layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Killmer Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 AFAIK Sapphon wasn't any special for a special character - if you want him look his old profile and build him with the new rules. Will not work smoothly as he wasn't an interrogator and he had a major hero profile which isn't awailable for chaplains anymore. But it will do. Â For myself I am happy that Brother Bethor is no longer part of the party - as in my understanding of the rules he would be an upgrade character model for the PA command section and was someone connected to the more special banners of the chapter - thus limitating these banners to the PA. Â As for Namaan imo he was the worst scout model GW did through the whole history of scout models. So I will not miss him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Chaplain Killmer we are not talking about model or rule representations here but fluff. Naaman has three editions to don his armor and take to the field, since he is a bit dead. Now he just is completely striken from the record of the Pricina War, and he was completely instrumental in the victory.Bethor and Saphon similarly just desapeared without explanation. All we get is a referense to a master Molochia the best Interrogator ever, who is that guy? I can understand the mess up with Saphon and Asmodai, but why wouldnt they make not a single mention of Bethor? He even got a new miniature no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 molochia is a interrogator chaplain from the past of the DA since second edition codex... In addition even id sapphon is not present in the codex Asmodai has the tile of older and most sucessful chaplain but it never states he is the master of the reclusimum... he is a master intterogator chaplain but the ruler of the reclusium is a GRAND MASTER like Ezekiel is the GRAND MASTER of luibrarians... Now that we have a new miniature for Asmodai we can start to use the old miniature ti represent Sapphon cause the combo sword + crozius is the sapphon tipical wargear since second edition... It's a shame that bethor and naamen disappeared from the fluff cause they were important DA characters since 2nd edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 There is NO GRAND MASTER OR RECLUSIARCH in the FORCE ORG, the title is HIGH INTERROGATOR and Asmodai is refered as MASTER. Probably an oversight or mistake, Check it out. Â Referenses: Pg 21 the fluff text, Pg 55 his own entry (also using the title master of repentance),pg 70 the miniature, pg 15 refed as High Interrogator. Unless master and high are different things. Which I very much doubt it. It sounds foolish IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Can't we just use all of the iterations of the codex for our fluff? On the flip side, If they are not specifically mentioned then that means there is nothing pointing to a contradiction of older fluff. Sapphin is alive and Naaman is dead. The events happened. They have not been rectonned by anything new and are backed up by Black Library books (and in Naaman's case, the GW produced Storm of Vengeance campaign). Â I'll admit it is a shame that they left out at least a nod to these past named characters, but that does not make these characters simply cease to exsist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 There is NO GRAND MASTER OR RECLUSIARCH in the FORCE ORG, the title is HIGH INTERROGATOR and Asmodai is refered as MASTER. Probably an oversight or mistake, Check it out.  Referenses: Pg 21 the fluff text, Pg 55 his own entry (also using the title master of repentance),pg 70 the miniature, pg 15 refed as High Interrogator. Unless master and high are different things. Which I very much doubt it. It sounds foolish IMHO. Master and High are two different things because we have no information stating otherwise. Perhaps it should be "grand master" as Sapphon was referenced as in the past? However, Sapphon can very well be a Grand Master, akin to Belial or Sammeal (as opposed to the master level characters like Company Masters) and also carry the title High Interrogator.  We only have past codices to go by and Sapphon is the Grand Master I believe. Lack of information in this dex does not discount anything from the past in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 My opinion on the possibility of the Saphons death was a speculation. I dont know what happened to him. As far as I know nobody knows. However I take it for granted that since we are given an explisit Organisation for the Chapter and in the Reclusiam section the title Reclusiarch is absent, its safe to theorise that we dont have one. Instead the first (and therefore highest) title it states is High Interrogator. High/Master IMHO in this instance is the same. Theres not a single bit of fluff to suggest otherwise. On the Contrary, every bit of sections consearing Asmodai, depicts him as a figure of authority. His antics wouldnt be tollerated because he is just a good interrogator. Plus why is he called the master of repentance and wields the blades of reason? He off all interrogators. That weapon is of the dark age of technology you dont hand it down to just a successfull interrogator. Â Further more lets suppose that the title master and high are different. Then the layout should be like that: Master of the reclusiam, Master Interrogator, High Interrogator or the other way, Interrogator chaplains and chaplains. So what purpose to the High and Master Interrogators fullfill then if they are different? There must be a functianal difference otherwise why bother? Â When all said and done that explaination causes more plot holes than it fixes, thats why IMHO Asmodai probably is the boss in the reclusiam. It messes better. I cant imagine anyone than the chapter master himself bossing him arround. Even the tid bit of fluff shows that Belial is somehow weary of him and 'trying' to handle him with frustration. Â On a side note, in many books Master and Grand-Master are one and the same. And I will therefore say it again, in the codex there is no Grandmaster of the Reclusiam only a master. Â I am not trying to convince you how to run your chapter/interpent fluff. I am tying to raise points on how things seem to be. I have no beef with Saphon another character is always welcome and I am also puzzled by his abscence. But I think three editions of absence is too long. The only thing he appearead lately was in angels of darkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Sorry Brother, that's just a whole lot of speculation for me (which of course you are free to do) not to mention a semantical battle with the meanings of high, grand master, master, etc. which as you noted can be inconsistent. But there does not have to be any fluff to prove that "high" and "master" are two different things, why? Because they are two different words to begin with. Other Chapters do it as well with their use of "master" and "chief". The way I see it, the fluff would have to prove that they are the same thing. But like I said, semantics. Â Also as FB said, Grand Master Sapphon is mentioned in Ravenwing. And guess what the next book is called? Master of Sanctity. That should settle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I havent read the Ravenwing yet. I assume from the way you say it that there is no mention of his rank there? I assume we shall indeed have our answer in the next book, though (at least for me) its not a contest of who is right or not, just opinions/speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I havent read the Ravenwing yet. I assume from the way you say it that there is no mention of his rank there? I assume we shall indeed have our answer in the next book, though (at least for me) its not a contest of who is right or not, just opinions/speculation.  Totally agree. We see it two different ways, no problem with that.  As for Ravenwing - It's a good read, but to be honest, I can't remember the exact reference to Sapphon. It could be that they simply called him "Grand Master Sapphon". He's at least alive. Point is, Gav's next book should clear things up... unless in true Dark Angels fashion it just gives us more circles within circles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 "There were twenty-eight [purity seals] in all, each awarded by the Grand Master of Chaplains, Sapphon, for heroic deeds and clarity of faith..." Â I haven't finished the book yet, but that part's near the beginning. Reading the ebook version, so I can't point you to a page number. Â Anyway, "Grand Master of Chaplains" sounds pretty definite. Sapphon is still the highest ranking Chaplain. Asmodai's just more famous and unique, thus justifying the special codex entry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Ok chaps you convinced me :D. Still It is a bit of a...disturbing oversight that there is no reference of a Chaplain grandmaster in the codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I agree, and to make matters more confusing, they added "High Interrogator" where there was never such a title before in the codex. Even Gav, didn't use it in his novel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Grand Master of Chaplains would be the usual top Chaplain. He has the whole chapter to watch out for. Â High or Master Interrogator would then be the one in charge of Interrogations. Focusing on capturing the Fallen, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Grand Master of Chaplains would be the usual top Chaplain. He has the whole chapter to watch out for. Â The confusion, stems from the fact that there is no referense to such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 As Brother I has mentioned, the entry on the Chapter organization under the Reclusiam is such:  High Interrogator Interrogator-Chaplains Chaplains  And another confusing thing for me, I always thought that "Interrogator" would have been more of a secret title for Chaplains. Doesn't such a title elicit questions? Wouldn't battle brothers wonder who it is they are interrogating to earn them such a title? Just Chaos agents/marines? Perhaps there in lies a sort of answer, more speculation of course... The "High Inquisitor" may go by that title within the Inner Cirlce, but to those outside he is simply the Grand Master of the Reclusiam/Chaplains or what not.  More conflicting info, Ezekial is the "Grand Master of Librarians" yet on the organization chart the highest rank is "Chief Librarian". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WatchCaptainAzrael Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 "Y'all greenahs don't know 'bout mah Circles within Circles." - Jimmy Vee, OG Codex Writah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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