Terrahawk Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Hail my grim-minded Brothers! While I'm currently drowning in our new kits (and that's the way I like it), I'm always planning the next thing I want to add to my army. So I have decided, that I most certainly need a bad ass command Land Raider for my Deathwing Knights. Since I will be driving up close to deliver the Lion's wrath, I'm torn between the Redeemer and the Crusader. At the moment I'm more intrigued by the Redeemer, since earlier we couldn't have them, and come on; who doesn't like burning heretics? However, since I have no prior experience on using one, I turn to you. Have you used Redeemers in 5th, and especially now in 6th? Are they worth it, or is generally better to go with the standard Crusader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 Do yourself a favor and just magnetize the thing - it's the same kit. I think both have a place, and those firsetorm cannons are AP 3 after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrahawk Posted February 8, 2013 Author Share Posted February 8, 2013 EPK: Haha, to be honest, for some reason I hadn't even thought about that. I guess that's a /thread then. However, I'm still interested in hearing people's experiences using Redeemers, if you have stories to share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samæl Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 EPK: Haha, to be honest, for some reason I hadn't even thought about that. I guess that's a /thread then. However, I'm still interested in hearing people's experiences using Redeemers, if you have stories to share. Being able to blast Tau stealth suits is always fun with one. "Ok, I get my cover...nevermind". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 I am gonna chip in here and say i think you dont need to magnetize. The verticle supports for the sposons already plug into the various weapon mounts and make it easy to swap if you want both loadouts. I magnetized mine but ive never really found the magnets to be better than the actual setup of the model its self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dread Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 When I played BA I ran 2 and wow what a BBQ. Now the only thing I think they coulda added to the rdeemer would have been torrent but that would probably make it too strong. Of coarse getting them into range can somtimes be a challenge in itself but when it does, pass the coleslaw please. Both, the redeemer and crusader have their roles on the field but the redeemer can dish out a bit more punishment. Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 8, 2013 Share Posted February 8, 2013 One thing to consider is how the crusader synergises with the dakka banner. Another thing to consider is how are you gonna get maximum firepower from the reedemer. The positioning of the flamestorm cannons are problematic at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 My plan was to try something like this: 5x Deathwing Knights 1x Interrogator-Chaplain w/ Mace of Redemption (replacing Pistol) 1x Techmarine w/ Power Field Generator 1x Landraider Redeemer w/ Deathwing Vehicle upgrade Comes in at about 730 points, so not cheap in the least, but you do end up with I feel a very effective package. Techmarine w/ Power Field Generator tooling around in a Redeemer w/ DW vehicle upgrade seems pretty scary - 14 AV all around, 4++ save, force a re-roll on the penetrating hits table, and repair hull points and some penetrating hits results. This should ensure that you survive to close to optimal range for assault and flamestorm cannons. For the Assault, disjoin the Techmarine from the unit and keep him in the Redeemer while the Chaplain and DWK disembark and move in to the charge (thank you assault ramp). Replacing the Chaplains Bolt Pistol with the Mace of Redemption means he 5 attacks on the Charge, at In 5, while also granting the Squad Hatred via Zealot, and possibly inflicting Blind on the enemy, forcing them to go after the DWK at In 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmo Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I magnetised mine - Crusader ? Redeemer ? no problemo! You can then try both versions and see which one you like best or works best against different foes. I have a bit of a magnet fetish though and if I can get magnets into a model I usually do To be honest - mine has not even reached the gaming table yet. My recent games where with T*u (vile Xenos). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Cruzader + force field generator + Banner of devastation. Flank the cruzader with rhinos with tactical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
march10k Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I thought about the raider load of pain...it's kind of crappy if you're not running up and smiting death guard terminators with it. The same 750-ish points, spent differently, could kill three times as much! Nevertheless, I will be doing something similar...a crusader load of knights (8 knights is about the same as 5+tdaic+techie). The redeemer has nice AP3 templates...that you'll need lots of luck to fire more than once per game. The Crusader, on the other hand, can pretty much shoot every turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher 102 Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 One thing to consider is how the crusader synergises with the dakka banner. Another thing to consider is how are you gonna get maximum firepower from the reedemer. The positioning of the flamestorm cannons are problematic at best. That's what power of the machine spirit is for. You don't have to do a bunch of weird geometry to try and place both templates over the same unit. Just spread the flaming joy over two units! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 If they are on the front of the crusader though and spread out in a line you cant hit more than 2-3 models. Ill take my chances with a crusader totting a banner command squad.Its insane firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 If they are on the front of the crusader though and spread out in a line you cant hit more than 2-3 models. Ill take my chances with a crusader totting a banner command squad. Its insane firepower. That is a good point I didn't even think of. Hmmmm, I knew there was a reason I always really like the Crusader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 If they are on the front of the crusader though and spread out in a line you cant hit more than 2-3 models. Ill take my chances with a crusader totting a banner command squad. Its insane firepower. That is a good point I didn't even think of. Hmmmm, I knew there was a reason I always really like the Crusader Yeah imagine that juicy ap3 templates to hit only 2-3 gaunts. It happened in the past. I was a reedemer whacko since I saw that. On paper it is capable of burning two marine squads alive, but paper is another thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Sure, there are non-optimal targets for the Redeemer, but there are also non-optimal targets for the Crusader, and that is half the fun of playing the game - you can't plan for every eventuality and must do your best with what you've got. The minimum amount of points for a similarly configured Crusader (DW Vehicle + Tech + Power Field Generator) is 590 - and I mean minimum, as that is all required bits in place with absolutely no upgrades. Mastery 1 Libby w/ no upgrades as HQ (have to have an HQ and the Libby is cheapest), Techmarine with only the Power Field Generator as an upgrade, Command Squad with only the Banner as an upgrade and Crusader with only the DW Vehicle upgrade. Also note that in this configuration, you must take the Crusader in a Heavy Support slot, as a Power Armored Command Squad can't get a Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport. The configuration I posted above is more points out of the gate, I'll grant you, but it is a tight little package that works together to accomplish its intended role - you'd need to re-work the above config to get it working right, and I'd wager that it would end up at a similar cost in points. Without the Banner of Devastation, I find the Hurricane Pattern Bolters woefully underpowered. 2x 3 Twin-Linked Bolters just doesn't seem like much to me. That's only 6 St 4 Ap 5 shots at 24" range, and 12 St 4 Ap 5 shots at 12" range, which is basically the same optimal threat range as the Redeemer. With TL, the Crusader will hit at 8/9 on average, wound against To 4 at 1/2 on average and against a 4+ save, will be unsaved 1/2 on average, giving us a final result of just 1/9 of shots fired resulting in a unsaved wound, on average - that's 6/9 of an unsaved wound at 24" and 1 and 3/9 unsaved wounds at 12". Of course it does better against To 3 As 5+ (GEQ) and worse against To 4 As 3+ (MEQ) but as a kind of the middle of the road quick look, it just doesn't do it for me. Once in range, the Flamestorm cannon auto-hits, wounds 5/6 against To 4 and penetrates everything up to As 3+. You do have to get in range of course, but with our options to make the Land Raider so tough, that shouldn't be too hard. If the Banner of Devastation does work on Hurricane bolters (and while I am in the camp that agrees that it should, their are those who do not think it does), they do get quite a bit better. 6x TL Bolters with 4x shots at 24" all the time makes a huge difference. With the above scenario, we are up to 2 and 6/9 wounds on average, at 24". My only gripe with this is that now I have to either A) take the Banner of Devastation on a unit that I ultimately intend to assault with (Assault Ramp, Frag Launchers, etc), B) load the Crusader with Assault troops and then escort the Crusader with the Command Squad with the banner (more points to make it work) C) load the Crusader with the Command Squad with the Banner, and not intend to assault with them (but no fire points in the Crusader to optimize the units shooting) In all these scenario's, I feel like I'm bending too much to use the Banner, to make the Crusader itself more worthwhile. I've always like the Hurricane Bolter model, and I like the Crusader model and fluff, but I just haven't found it too effective on the board, other than as a simple assault transport. The Redeemer has a lower transport capacity, but makes up for it more, in my opinion, by being a better close range assault vehicle, able to deliver a punishing assault unit, while still maintaining its own threatening presence once the payload has been delivered. St 6, for instance, can threaten up to AV 12, when Hurricane Bolters will just bounce off. St 6 causes Instant Death to To 3, and we can synergize that with RW Grenade Launcher Rad shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 You dont take the banner for the crusader to work. The banner is a wider strategy boost option, that happens to enchance the crusader as well. Whatever works though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Cruzader + force field generator + Banner of devastation. Flank the cruzader with rhinos with tactical. Boooo, flank the crusader with two more crusaders!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Cruzader + force field generator + Banner of devastation. Flank the cruzader with rhinos with tactical. Thats actually the basis of a list I placed in another thread discussing the banner. I only replaced the rhinos with las/plas razor backs for more anti tank omph. Cruzader + force field generator + Banner of devastation. Flank the cruzader with rhinos with tactical. Boooo, flank the crusader with two more crusaders!! You sir are looking to be called a cheeser. Don't forget to put MMs on them for anti tank ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 You dont take the banner for the crusader to work. The banner is a wider strategy boost option, that happens to enchance the crusader as well. Whatever works though. That is kind of my point though - without the Banner, the Crusader lacks the punch of the Redeemer (IMO, of course) as Hurricane Bolters just aren't very scary, and Flamestorm Cannons are. With the Banner, the Crusader becomes pretty scary, but now you've got to keep the Banner in range of the Crusader, and if you're using the Crusader as an Assault Transport, that means moving it towards the enemy at a pretty consistent rate. If you're not using the Crusader as an Assault Transport - why did you take it instead of something else? Once you've committed to keeping the Banner in range of the Crusader, your options for capitalizing on the Banner become reduced. Do you stick it in the squad in the Crusader? Now you've got a shooty banner on a squad stuffed in an assault transport - are they supposed to assault or shoot? Do you pay more points to tag it along somewhere near the Crusader, so the squad inside the Crusader doesn't have to make that choice? Either way, you lose out on the most cost effective use of the Banner, from a pure points perspective - stationary tac squads chock full of Bolters - as the Banner will be moving away from them if they are stationary, or they will be moving if they're trying to keep up with the Banner, which is following the Crusader. 3 Crusaders, in a spearhead formation, nestling a Command squad with Banner in a Rhino, hiding in the pocket, becomes an interesting idea, but at that point, that is your army - not something you could drop in to another force org with points left over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Its not the point of this thread though to go into command squads. Regardless do not view each unit under a single glass, use prisms All units in our lists must work in synergy. A banner in a command squad regardless of the squads use or load out maximises the effect of the army all that better. Hence why I would choose a crusader over a redeemer. It allows it to work better. Whatever the squad is loaded with is irrelevant to this discussion but open to the needs of the list. Thats what I am trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worloch Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you on that point - it is totally relevant to this thread what these other squads, including command squads, are bringing to the table. Sure, we can make the simple statement that a Banner of Devastation enhances the other forces in your army - I don't think anyone is trying to say otherwise. But we do have to ask ourselves, how much it is enhancing our other forces, and how much is that enhancement costing us? Is that amount of enhancement worth that cost? And the answers to those questions will depend not only on having the Banner or not, but what other forces you have, how they are armed, and how the whole army will play on the table. As you say, we can not look at any unit in isolation, but how it works in conjunction with the rest of the army, and we must work towards synergies and efficiencies within the army as a whole. As such, we can't simply choose to ignore the implications of taking a Command Squad with the Banner of Devastation with the intent of specifically enhancing a Land Raider Crusader. We must think about how that impacts the rest of army and choices. Crusader and Redeemer each have their place, and has already been pointed out in this thread, it is best to keep your options open, from a modeling standpoint. However, from a cost effectiveness standpoint, I believe the Redeemer brings just a tad more to table on a consistent basis than the Crusader, unless your meta leans more towards GEQ and not MEQ, and/or you have the need to transport more than the Redeemer can carry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Chaplain Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 As others have said, magnetize the kit and see which one works better for you. My question for you is are you going to need 16 transport capacity/8 terminators (crusader) or 12 capacity/6 terminators (redeemer) more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 worloch I am saying this because I dont want to deviate the thread further. I am redirecting you here if you wish: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270651-banner-tactics-getting-the-most-from-our-multipliers/ I have posted a list in there. Before you read it (if you find it interesting) two things: I used A lascannon LR because I wanted more anti tank. If you swap it and do the math you can see how effective it is. Further more I have all things that we are talking about: The LR, a barebones command squad, a generator, the banner and tac squads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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