Dark Angels Missing Assetts

[Sidewinder 3]

Brothers Dark Angels, this is not a Rent, I am very satisfied with our new Codex and I
Am very fond of our new Toys...The DW Knights in particular...with Them I Finally Kicked
the A.. Of Old Friend that runs a Nurgle CSM army that caused me so much troubles...

Returning to the question, I am a bit of a Fluff Bunny, but after examining the New Dex I cannot avoid to wonder Why fluff

wise and game wise we were denied so much assets that the regular vanilla
marines (Aka Smurfs ) have : The Ironclad Dread, The Thunderfire, The

Techmarine with Grav Gun., The Land Speeder Storm and so on. I Mean we are the first
legion the oldest and supposedly the wealthiest in term of equipment, we almost totally adhere to the Codex Astartes. Why deny
us much stuff, moreover I Did like the Idea of a DA Ironclad and DA Scouts
delivered from a LS Storm very much.

[Guest]

I can understand why the DA don't have the Storm, Its duties are took up by the Ravenwing, the Ironclad for some reason just does not strike me as a fluffy DA unit I could be wrong thou :)

[Kastor Krieg]

I'd rather have a Mortis, why THAT perfectly fluffy DA Dread option isn't there? :/

[Brother Immolator]

Well, seen as we do everything better than codex marines it would be the final nail in the coffin if we had everything now no?

Plus I can hardly see the RW waste their time ferrying scouts.

[wheelballer]

As awesome as it would be to have all the fun stuff C:SM has, namely fliers and dreads, I'm very happy with the codex. I agree with Immolator that the Ravenwing would be too busy with their other duties to deal with the lowly scouts. Also, having the scouts around too much might let them in on knowledge they shouldn't get until much later.

[elphilo]

We might not get access to the super fun techmarine guns because we don't trust them that much, so why should they trust us with it? At least that's how I see it fluff wise. Balance wise Brother Immolator probably hit the nail on the head. If we get it all, what will SM have that is unique to them and make people want to collect/play them?

[Bryan Blaire]

It's also possible that the following is occurring: the Dark Angels and Unforgiven are not sharing their stock piles or apparently some potential STC, similar to the Blood Angels, and therefore the Mechanicum aren't sharing the "new" stuff with the Dark Angels. I understand that most of the "new" things really aren't new, but they aren't being described in the Heresy, so they seem "new" enough that its possible the DA were never shared with. Also, the Techmarine is apparently the only one that can operate a Thunderfire, the DA don't trust Techmarines, so why would they give them more armament? :D

 

Lets do a brief analysis of what the DA trade in units wise: Honor Guard, "create-able" Chapter Master, Master of the Forge, Sergeant Telion, Sternguard, split TDA squads, Ironclad Dreadnought, LotD squad, Vanguard, Attack Bike squad, Land Speeder Storm, Scout Bike squad, Thunderfire Cannon, Storm Talon,

 

What they get in return: a fluffy Wargear list with Chapter Relics and Sacred Standards, a special class of Chaplain, 3 types of Command squads, Company Vets squad, mixed weapons TDA squad, a more powerful TDA CC specialized squad, a Venerable upgrade for the Dreadnought rather than page space taken up by an almost identical unit, the Ravenwing Attack Squadron that is more powerful than a Scout Bike squad but does more (if not much, much more) than that squad would, Ravenwing Support Squadron that can take an additional two LSs with any weapons configuration (so more powerful than just a squad of three), two special/unique (and better looking) aircraft, a very hard hitting bike squad with twin linked short range plasma guns, and two very unique (although not better looking) heavy Land Speeders, one with a very cool synergy concept.

 

Add in the fluffy-ish rules, I know I will play the DA Codex without any worry about not having access to any of the regular Marine codex units.

 

The Dark Angels also do not "almost totally adhere to the Codex Astartes". The battle companies are organized along standard Codex lines, but even that fails the test of "Do they really?" If you incorporate the idea of the Company Veteran squads, even ad hoc, this is not a Codex organization, but does not violate the "All 1st Company is deployed in TDA" rule. I really like that they have finally distanced us enough from the Codex chapters to make us more unique in a very explicit way. Outsiders are hard pressed to recognize that the DA aren't Codex adherent, but no longer can people argue "They are so close, they should just be folded in, they already operate almost exactly the same way, etc". That's no longer a valid argument.

[EPK]

Well said Bryan.

 

I suppose something else to consider is that C:SM is made to support playing as a variety of Codex-adhearing Chapters. It could be possible fluff-wise that certain Chapters may not actually use some of the more specialized units. Or maybe they field even more than average.

[Bryan Blaire]

Well said Bryan.

I suppose something else to consider is that C:SM is made to support playing as a variety of Codex-adhearing Chapters. It could be possible fluff-wise that certain Chapters may not actually use some of the more specialized units. Or maybe they field even more than average.

Definitely, EPK. If people are truly playing to fluff, then they will not use the C:SM to min-max their builds to optimum units in spite of fluff that would say things like "White Scars are unlikely to take Thunderfire Cannons or ponderous vehicles in a standard army" or the like. They wouldn't take multiple HQs from differing Chapters or take a special Chapter Master from a Chapter and also a "create your own Chapter Master" in the same army, etc. This isn't to say you can't or there might not be fluff reasons to do, but those more interested in competitive play than narrative/concept/fluff play don't seem to heed such ideas as much as others.

[dadieau]

DA's can't hate Techies too much, you can take one for every HQ without using a Force Order slot. I guess you haven't noticed but DA Techies have access to some pretty cool stuff that no other Marines can get.

[Master Avoghai]

And like I've said elsewhere you can perfectly use the SM toys in a fluffy.

 

v6 is blessed because it introduced the allies contingent system which allow you to vary your units.

 

Take a Master of the Forge as HQ and a squad of scouts as troops. The latter have exactly the same special rules as ours so there won't be any incohenrencies in battle with DA scouts and SM scouts. More than this, it will allow you to take Telion counting as Naaman. The MotF will represent a high rank techmarine trying his new toys. The fact that he lacks some of the DA special rules will perfectly represent the distance DA tries to keep with the techies.

 

Then you have a free Elite slot : You can use it to take an Ironclad or a vets unit (representing Forge apprentices with special weapons -here again lack of special rules can be explained fluff wise).

 

Your FA slot can be filled up with a SM flyer or with a LS Storm for your scout or even with scout bikes. I disagree with some of you regarding the RW/bikescouts opposition. We're a chapter with some of the best bikers in the universe and we wouldn't teach our new recruits how to deal with bikes and speeders? Come on guys! How the RW replace the losses?

 

Your HS slot can be used to field the tech cannon.

 

So I don't really bother with units : like some said, SM is here to allow to play several chapters with different combat doctrines whereas DA codex just represent DA and their successors. We already have lots of nice units and the v6 + a little bit of imagination allow you to field the SM toys so...

[JeffJedi]

Before our current Codex i would have agreed, but now i no longer feel the need to use allies. Maybe in Apocalypse though.

 

I can see some items just not being used, never developed, got lost or feel out of favor. Some things are so rare but work with Forgeworld additions.

 

I'm glad we never got Sternguard and such. I'm much happier with our Knights. As for the Ironclad, I think our Terminators fill the basic role. We teleport in with them instead of breaking down their walls.

[Master Avoghai]

Indeed but I think it´s the main difference with before : we were obliged not to use such things

 

Today we have the choice to use it or not

[Brother Immolator]

The thing with the thunderfire. I dont believe it has to do with trust. After all they trust the techmarines to operate TWO STC's hidden from the mechanicus.

The Stasis bomb for the flyer and the Corvus one (comeon now you can repair a vehicle only SO MANY times before it falls appart completely, and I feel silly for not having thought of that before...the last Imperial jet bike....yeah sure...not an STC at all...).

I believe the beef with the thunderfire is that its a static semi artyllery piece. Not that the dark angels wont entrench themselves in defense but if you read the fluff our mondus operandi seems like that:

 

-Drop pods and thunderhawks land marines and heavy equipment

-Bikes have already scouted ahead and are either engaging in harassment tactics or getting in position

-The power armored units and tank screen form a cordon around the target(s) and begin their march of doom

-The RW by that moment will have caused enough disruption or found a plase to call the deathwing

 

So IMHO the thunderfire doesnt play to the need for mobility. It is too static to redeploy every now and then.

 

The scout bikes...Please we have the black daredevils what do we need scout bikes to do?

Stroms: Read the assault marine entry. If the scout doesnt learn to controll his rage he is not going anywhere from the scout companies. Thus I believe CC scouts are rarely deployed in general.

The ironclads: Well I would vote for them but I guess we dont risk them that much in CC. Perhaps since ours (DW ones) are most likely former members of the inner Circle they equip them for ranged dutty to keep them at a safe distance? Just speculating here.

The honour guard: We have better.

Sterguard: No need thank you. Though they would be usefull, I cant find fluff justification.

[Master Avoghai]

The scout bikes...Please we have the black daredevils what do we need scout bikes to do?

Stroms: Read the assault marine entry. If the scout doesnt learn to controll his rage he is not going anywhere from the scout companies. Thus I believe CC scouts are rarely deployed in general.

 

So... We have an entire company of bikes/LS and we don't teach our novices how to deal with bikes and speeders? Paradoxal huh?

 

Sterguard: No need thank you. Though they would be usefull, I cant find fluff justification.

What about our company vets equipped withe the same ammos? I agree that we don't need a sternguard entry but the only difference between comp vets and sternguards are only the ammos...

[Gillyfish]

I suspect that some of the 'missing' items have more to do with game balance and differentiating armies than the background. That does make sense too, otherwise no-one would want to play Codex marines as the more distinct chapters would get everything codex marines have and more.

 

So I can believe that we have Scout bikes and Ironclads, even the thunderfire, but perhaps they aren't deployed that often by the Unforgiven as it doesn't fit with their modus operandi that well (or at least as it would be depicted in a 40k game. So, if we assume that the games we play are examples of hard-fought battles (rather than lopsided affairs where one side has an overwhelming advantage) it sort of makes sense that we wouldn't have scout bikers etc., due to the risk of them encountering the Fallen. Ironclads make less sense in that context, but I quite liked the explanation that we bypass fortifications through the way the Deathwing are deployed.

 

So my explanation would be that the Unforgiven do have access to those units, but wouldn't deploy them in the sort of battle that is depicted by a typical 40k game.

[Rizara]

Also for the thunderfire cannon, wouldn't that be pretty much used by a master of the forge.  We don't field a master of the forge, as the master of the forge is the master ofthe rock, he is basically strapped into a giant asteroid and isn't fieldable.  

[shortysl]

Company Vets are nothing like Sternguard. Sternguard are 1st Company, Company Vets are simply the best warriors within a Battle Company. In the Dark Angels that's a big difference. The kinds of tasks the Sternguard are given are dealt with by the Deathwing. There's no comparison to make.

[Spaced Hulk]

I think Gillyfish is on the right track. The main reason DA don't get things like Thunderfires, Landspeeder Storms etc is simply to differentiate the various Marine books, giving us all our own, unique toys so to speak.

 

However, just to reiterate Master Avoghai's point, all the units from other Space Marine Codices are perfectly available as allies. So if you really want to field Sternguard, or a Storm Raven, or Scout Bikes, you just need to field an Allied detachment. As long as you make it clear to your opponant which units are which, you can even paint them in the same colours as your Primary detachment and use them as 'Counts As'. Alternatively, paint them in the scheme of another DA Successor and say you're fielding a combined Unforgiven battle group.

 

Any differences in rules can be overcome with a little imagination. For example, if you want to field a squad of Sternguard you could model/paint them as normal DA Company Veterans, all equipped with rare specialist ammo from the armoury's of the Rock. The stats for both units are identical. While they'll have Combat Tactics rather than Grim Resolve, you could explain it that these particular Company Veterans are renowned for their tactical brilliance, constantly analysing battlefield situations and, when necessary, falling back to allow them to use their superior firepower more effectively. Obviously, this tactical skill is why they're been granted access to the special ammunition types.

[Brother Immolator]

 

The scout bikes...Please we have the black daredevils what do we need scout bikes to do?

Stroms: Read the assault marine entry. If the scout doesnt learn to controll his rage he is not going anywhere from the scout companies. Thus I believe CC scouts are rarely deployed in general.

So... We have an entire company of bikes/LS and we don't teach our novices how to deal with bikes and speeders? Paradoxal huh?

 

>Sterguard: No need thank you. Though they would be usefull, I cant find fluff justification.

What about our company vets equipped withe the same ammos? I agree that we don't need a sternguard entry but the only difference between comp vets and sternguards are only the ammos...

 

 

Remember that special issue ammo is a left over from the UM tyranic war vets and their ammo were supposed to be specialy developed to fight those, durring the ultramar invasion. In order to make them more apt to be used by the rest of the codex chapters they were redesignated as sternguard. Its a weak fluff excuse I know, but again we are trifling with the uniqueness of the codex chapters so lets leave that to them honestly. Plus even if we had access, personaly I wouldnt field them, I wont even field vets for that matter.

 

Also on bikes, I never said that the DA never train their scouts in the use of bikes. Training is one thing, deploying them on the field is another. The missions of the ravenwing and the way they operate  are not for scouts. They would be a liability, both to the deathwing and the inner circle.

[Spaced Hulk]

 

 

The scout bikes...Please we have the black daredevils what do we need scout bikes to do?

Stroms: Read the assault marine entry. If the scout doesnt learn to controll his rage he is not going anywhere from the scout companies. Thus I believe CC scouts are rarely deployed in general.

So... We have an entire company of bikes/LS and we don't teach our novices how to deal with bikes and speeders? Paradoxal huh?

 

>Sterguard: No need thank you. Though they would be usefull, I cant find fluff justific

ation.

What about our company vets equipped withe the same ammos? I agree that we don't need a sternguard entry but the only difference between comp vets and sternguards are only the ammos...

 

Remember that special issue ammo is a left over from the UM tyranic war vets and their ammo were supposed to be specialy developed to fight those, durring the ultramar invasion. In order to make them more apt to be used by the rest of the codex chapters they were redesignated as sternguard. Its a weak fluff excuse I know, but again we are trifling with the uniqueness of the codex chapters so lets leave that to them honestly. Plus even if we had access, personaly I wouldnt field them, I wont even field vets for that matter.

 

Pretty sure it was the Deathwatch rules which first featured the special issue bolter ammunition. The hellfire rounds were developed in the aftermath of the Tyrannic Wars but I think the other ammo types have been round for much longer. For example, the Vengeance rounds/Marine killers were used (according to the HH novel Deliverance Lost) by the Traitor Legions at the Istvaan Massacre. 

 

I suspect the main reason DA don't get the special ammo types for Company Vets is game balance. When you've got a way of making standard bolters Heavy 4, the possibility of combining that with AP3/4, Ignore Cover or always wounding on a 2+ seems pretty overpowered. Background wise, I don't think there's any real reason why we shouldn't get them.

[Brother Immolator]

OFC its game balance, I am trying to find a fluff justification ;)

[Bryan Blaire]

We are all going to have different views on things like this. Personally, given the events of the Calibanite heresy and the distance that the Dark Angels already had before then and that it got even further afterward, it is perfectly plausible to me that the Dark Angels Legion had almost no new toys from around the end of the Horus Heresy on, except those that they already had possession of/they found and weren't sharing. Also, I disagree with the concept that the Mechnicus distributes tech templates equally or manufactures equally for all Space Marine Chapters. It is plausible to me as well that the Dark Angels never got access to the "special ammunition" template or have any delivered and even if they managed to recover some after a battle from fallen allies (something I don't think the almost religious Marines would actually do), it would be tech heresy to reverse engineer the tech and I don't believe that the Dark Angels Techmarines would participate in that.

 

Shortsyl definitely has it right about the difference between Company Veterans and Sternguard.

 

A lot of this truly is game balance, the Dark Angels and anyone using the Codex have access to certain toys. By its very nature, while the Allies rules allow you to get some of the non-DA toys in, it is inherently limited from the get-go, similar to the fact that you can't use DW and RW troops in an Allied detachment. There's a definite attempt at some balance there. However, I do also feel that it does have some to do with wanting to distance the DA from Codex Astartes Chapters as made by army lists in C:SM as well as the fluff.

[Brother Immolator]

Apparently Bryan Blaire has not meet the Blood magp....Ravens.

[dynamicspartan]

Sorry guys, but I do not think the DA do not have Thunderfires because of the lack of trust in techmarines. They do not trust them because of the duel dedication to chapter and mechanicum and because of this, will not allow them to rise into the ranks of the Deathwing. The level of mistrust the Unforgiven would have to have in the techmarines to not let them use tech that only they can use is in a way a bit ludicrous. At that point the techmarines probably would not be allowed to be on the same ships as the other battle brothers, be near the vehicles or probably even have a bolter. They are still battle brothers to their respective chapters though and are more than likely highly respected in the Unforgiven despite the duel allegiance the have. The reason the DA codex does not have Thunderfires is probably deviation. Otherwise, that is the only unit from the vanilla codex that I could actually imagine the Unforgiven using.