An Imperial Fist Question

[Phalanx Warder]

Hello brothers,

 

I am starting a heresy/crusade era IF army, I have always had a thing for the legion and their successor's. That said I was wanting some community imput on an idea I have been rolling around im my grape.

 

Would it be appropriate to represent the different chapters that were to emerge form the legion by painting/modeling them all in the iconic yellow of the legion, but with the future chapter markings opposite the fist on the other shoulder, the left pouldron will be the legion the right represents the chapter assignment?

 

Thanks ahead of time guys!

[Grotsmasha]

This is what I'm doing for my Crusade era Dark Angels. However, to the best of my knowlegde, there is no official fluff precedent for this.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[GodEmperorOfMankind]

I'd say go for it!

 

You can say it's their company/detachment marking. I love the idea. Can't wait t o see the pics!

[Brother Immolator]

Isnt each chapter supposed to have its own heradry just like modern era companies? I assume it can be done.

[Grotsmasha]

On futrther though, perhaps it would be more appropriate on the kneepad? Depending on which armour mk's you're using will determine how viable it is modelling wise...

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Kol Saresk]

From a fluff perspective, it would be iffy simply because IIRC, Chapters like the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists do have very recognizable leaders. However, I still will not say that you can't do it, just that there is a hurdle.

 

From a modeling perspective, heck yeah!

 

From a personal perspective, if you think you can balance that fluff hurdle, provide you even want to think about it, I'd say do it.

[Brother Immolator]

Those leaders came to be (as chapter masters) into effect after the heresy though and we are talking about a heresy army. The whole idea is that the chapters (legion chapters not modern era) existed back there as parts of IFs legion which I think has merit.

[Vardus]

As it stands, until FW release the book with Imperial Fists in it and say otherwise then why not. Looking at FW recent decal releases, i.e. the Death Guard and World Eaters suggests that shoulder squad markings were used prior to being codified and this may clash with your idea. Although the Praetor or Centurion may have these markings, Grotsmashas' idea does seem to be the way to go, for now :)

[Kol Saresk]

Those leaders came to be (as chapter masters) into effect after the heresy though and we are talking about a heresy army. The whole idea is that the chapters (legion chapters not modern era) existed back there as parts of IFs legion which I think has merit.

That's sort of my point. Sigismund is a well-known leader and we exactly who he is, even in the Heresy era. But Alexis Polux, not so much although he is making a name for himself since he gave Perturabo a rather bloody nose. Like I said, I am not against the idea. The problem comes from that in the Heresy era, some of these Chapters would have been stuck in specific places or have been separated over the course of the Heresy. Example, the Black Templars if they are Sigismund's command would have been stuck on Terra while the Crimson Fists under Polux would have been stuck wherever he is. Like I said, if the OP even wants to pay attention to that hurdle, it wouldn't to be hard to overcome from a fluff perspective as long as you put some creativity behind but in all reality from a fluff and modeling perspective, there really won't be any way to say no to this even if Forgeworld wrote a book saying "The Imperial Fists had the Fist of Dorn on both Shoulderpads unless they were Chapter Masters/Company Commanders." Simply because this is what the OP wants to do and ultimately it will always come down to that: What does the OP want to do?

 

Right now the OP is asking if they can model Imperial Fists with the marks of future Chapters and would that be met with general approval. My answer and so far the answer of everyone else is Yes.

[Brother Immolator]

By the same reasoning my Dark Angels third company might be stuck in the eye of terror fighting chaos marines and next saturday I will be playing necrons. So....what?

 

Plus because its the IFs BT chapter doesnt mean that by definition it was run by Sigismund. They probably had another chapter master. The whole point for this to work is people to ingrain into their minds the difference between Legion chapter and Modern Era chapter. They are the same in effect but different in the wider scope.

So to endeveour furthure this are not 'future chapters' they are existing chapters of the IF Legion durring the heresy and before. The only unkown factors are these: Were they using the same heraldry? Were they named as such? (the dark angels for example were using numbers instead of names), Who are their chapter masters at the time?

If no definitive answers can be given to the above the Op has free reign to do with as he pleases.

[Phalanx Warder]

After reading what everyone has said, I can see how this creates a fluff issue, so as far as the heresy era it might not mesh well with existing fluff.

 

But IMHO if this was a crusade era army (expeditionary fleet) it could contain members of almost any unit/cohort/chapter/company out there, In my thinking as large fleets came together and the need for more fleets to explore (assuming terra is the center the further out they got the more ground to cover) then the large fleets contribute to make smaller fleets in this fashion my expeditionary fleet 0369 is composed of many elements of the legion under the command of a preator. In this fashion any heresy actions they take part of would be as expeditionary fleet 0369 prior to their reunion with the legion at terra.

 

How did I do with my fluff? I think that is a good way to explain their story, if anyone has improvements HABBU! (Hook A Battle Brother Up!)

[Kol Saresk]

Right now the OP is asking if they can model Imperial Fists with the marks of future Chapters and would that be met with general approval. My answer and so far the answer of everyone else is Yes.

Right now the OP is asking if they can model Imperial Fists with the marks of future Chapters and would that be met with general approval. My answer and so far the answer of everyone else is Yes.

Right now the OP is asking if they can model Imperial Fists with the marks of future Chapters and would that be met with general approval. My answer and so far the answer of everyone else is Yes.

Okay this is something I have said in every single post I have made so far. Yes? Yes. So, to reiterate, I am not saying that Sigismund's heraldy of being the Black Templar is preventing him from showing an Imperial Fist with it. Like I have said three times now, it is a good idea and he should go for it. Just that there is a minor fluff hurdle. No mention has been made of playing games, nothing. He might be trying to make an army for posterity, he might be wanting to take part in a "historic heresy era battle" or who knows? I am just saying that from a fluff perspective it is a hurdle. Not a brick wall, but a hurdle. He can do it even from a fluff perspective, just that the fluff would need some "hurdle-jumping." No more, no less. I am not saying that he cannot do it, I have not said that at all. I am merely saying that it is a hurdle. No more, no less. Okay? Does that reiteration meet with your approval since I have said the exact same thing three times?

[Brother Immolator]

Right now the OP is asking if they can model Imperial Fists with the marks of future Chapters and would that be met with general approval. My answer and so far the answer of everyone else is Yes.

>>Right now the OP is asking if they can model Imperial Fists with the marks of future Chapters and would that be met with general approval. My answer and so far the answer of everyone else is Yes.

Right now the OP is asking if they can model Imperial Fists with the marks of future Chapters and would that be met with general approval. My answer and so far the answer of everyone else is Yes.

Okay this is something I have said in every single post I have made so far. Yes? Yes. So, to reiterate, I am not saying that Sigismund's heraldy of being the Black Templar is preventing him from showing an Imperial Fist with it. Like I have said three times now, it is a good idea and he should go for it. Just that there is a minor fluff hurdle. No mention has been made of playing games, nothing. He might be trying to make an army for posterity, he might be wanting to take part in a "historic heresy era battle" or who knows? I am just saying that from a fluff perspective it is a hurdle. Not a brick wall, but a hurdle. He can do it even from a fluff perspective, just that the fluff would need some "hurdle-jumping." No more, no less. I am not saying that he cannot do it, I have not said that at all. I am merely saying that it is a hurdle. No more, no less. Okay? Does that reiteration meet with your approval since I have said the exact same thing three times?

1st I would appreciate the toning down of hostility. (Deathwing)

2nd You need not any approval from me on anything. Last time I checked I am not your guardian (Ravenwing)

3rd I was providing reasonable and in fluff 'possible' explanations on your hurdles. (Battle company)

4th Didnt force anyone to accept them either. (Battle company)

5th The game playing was a metaphor in an attempt to explain why one can have an army fighting another out of fluff context. (Battle company)

6th No need to quote yourself 3 times I have read it in the first and I raised some points. (Battle company)

7th Said points were raised with discussion in mind. (Reserve company)

8th Said points we not raised with the intent to insult. (Reserve company)

9th Op is not a person known to me so I am not defending his idea. I am merely trying to raise vallid points pro or against it and I happen to use your statements as a platform. (Reserve company)

10th Heres to hopping you heresy forum guys stop jumping at our throats at first opportunity. (Scout company)

[Demus Ragnok]

By the same reasoning my Dark Angels third company might be stuck in the eye of terror fighting chaos marines and next saturday I will be playing necrons. So....what?

 

Plus because its the IFs BT chapter doesnt mean that by definition it was run by Sigismund. They probably had another chapter master. The whole point for this to work is people to ingrain into their minds the difference between Legion chapter and Modern Era chapter. They are the same in effect but different in the wider scope.

So to endeveour furthure this are not 'future chapters' they are existing chapters of the IF Legion durring the heresy and before. The only unkown factors are these: Were they using the same heraldry? Were they named as such? (the dark angels for example were using numbers instead of names), Who are their chapter masters at the time?

 

If no definitive answers can be given to the above the Op has free reign to do with as he pleases.

The Ravenwing is mentioned by name in the short story Call of the Lion.

[Edge-of-Infinity]

It sounds like a pretty awesome idea, so for a simple answer: go for it.

 

In the end, its your project so you should feel free to do it how you wish. I've seen many interpretations regarding Legion armies so one more idea isn't going to hurt.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I would think it be a great idea! I am not sure if you would need any justification at all because any true Son of Dorn would approve! I seem to recall that Templars of the 1st from Siggy's crew wore the Heraldic Cross and Dorn sports it on his armor ala ADB's Helsreach and the statuary. There are plenty of fluffy justicifications you could come up with such as it is a combined Crusade Force that was enacted to bring together the Chapters of the IF before standing down to become the praetors of Terra and the Emperor, kind of like an IF Ullanor force. It could be any random battle where a couple of the honchos got together to be honest. My buddy has made a fairly sizable 40k "Sons of Dorn" Crusade with mixed CF, IF and BT troops together and it looks great! I would really be interested to see how the slight variations of IF yellow/gold would look together on the board like that ^.^

[Brother Immolator]

The Ravenwing is mentioned by name in the short story Call of the Lion.

The ravenwing was a specialized formation within the orders pre legion and I think it was kept that way during the HH. It was not a separate company. I am not sure about this though. However the chapter master in Decent of angels is refered to as chapter master of xxx(cant remember number) chapter.

[Warsmith IV]

The Templar Cross was Sigismund's personal heraldy - I've always assumed that this meant he probably had one shoulder pad yellow with the Imperial Fist and the other white with the Templar Cross. Seems a logical extension that his company or at least his command squad  may also have worn it.

 

Bear in mind that since the SM Battless novel Legion of the Damned the Excoriators are now a second-founding Chapter of the Imperial Fists (founding captain Demetrius Katalfaque), so their heraldry could be used a well as the Black Templars or Crimson Fists.

[Demus Ragnok]

 

 

The Ravenwing is mentioned by name in the short story Call of the Lion.

The ravenwing was a specialized formation within the orders pre legion and I think it was kept that way during the HH. It was not a separate company. I am not sure about this though. However the chapter master in Decent of angels is refered to as chapter master of xxx(cant remember number) chapter.

The ravenwing is mentioned as a "chapter" with the chapter master mentioned as being rather young for the rank. They appear inthe story to just be a new chapter added from Caliban their chapter badge being on a green field seperating them from the teran chapters. The ravenwing chapter master calls in terminators at the end of the story also. I dont know if they were from the ravenwing chapter or not.

[Kol Saresk]

Brother Immolator, the hostility existed because I had to repeat myself twice when the third time was just as clear as the first. Also, I am not a "Heresy forum" guy, whatever the heck that means. I said the exact same thing in all three of my posts and yet two of them were responded with something that implied why I was saying he couldn't do it. I was just saying that from a fluff perspective, if this was a gaming army then it would be peculiar as to how an Imperial Fists detachment wound up being made of so many Chapters, especially when some of them where in other places. But it was hurdle that could be jumped in a hundred different ways and would be a problem if the OP was actually worried about the fluff, much as Chaplain CHonkE showed. Another example could have been that while Sigismund was not present at Phall, some of those under his command were still dispatched along with the fleet and that one of the ships that retreated from Phall wound up somewhere else, either with Polux or somewhere else entirely and contained a mixture of Fists from different Chapters on board. No more, no less.

 

Demus Ragnarok, Brother Immolator does have the right of it that in Call of the Lion, the Chapter was not the Ravenwing. Merely that the Commander of that Chapter, a Calibanite named Belath, was once a member of the knightly Order of the Raven's Wing. A quick look through the short story in question mentions that only Belath was a member of the Order of the Raven's Wing. It is not said if the entire Chapter that he commands is collectively known as the Raven's Wing or if it simply has a number as its designator is not given.

 

In Descent of Angels, the Chapter Master was Hadariel of the Twenty-Second Chapter, the Chapter the Lion would lead to Sarosh.

 

EDIT: My post came out really weird for a second there.

[Demus Ragnok]

Brother Immolator, the hostility existed because I had to repeat myself twice when the third time was just as clear as the first. Also, I am not a "Heresy forum" guy, whatever the heck that means. I said the exact same thing in all three of my posts and yet two of them were responded with something that implied why I was saying he couldn't do it. I was just saying that from a fluff perspective, if this was a gaming army then it would be peculiar as to how an Imperial Fists detachment wound up being made of so many Chapters, especially when some of them where in other places. But it was hurdle that could be jumped in a hundred different ways and would be a problem if the OP was actually worried about the fluff, much as Chaplain CHonkE showed. Another example could have been that while Sigismund was not present at Phall, some of those under his command were still dispatched along with the fleet and that one of the ships that retreated from Phall wound up somewhere else, either with Polux or somewhere else entirely and contained a mixture of Fists from different Chapters on board. No more, no less.

 

Demus Ragnarok, Brother Immolator does have the right of it that in Call of the Lion, the Chapter was not the Ravenwing. Merely that the Commander of that Chapter, a Calibanite named Belath, was once a member of the knightly Order of the Raven's Wing. A quick look through the short story in question mentions that only Belath was a member of the Order of the Raven's Wing. It is not said if the entire Chapter that he commands is collectively known as the Raven's Wing or if it simply has a number as its designator is not given.

 

In Descent of Angels, the Chapter Master was Hadariel of the Twenty-Second Chapter, the Chapter the Lion would lead to Sarosh.

 

EDIT: My post came out really weird for a second there.

Well that was assumption on my part. A master bearing a certain badge caused me to beleive it would also be the badge of the unit he commands, oh well.

[Legatus]

IIRC the Imperial Fists Legion divided their warriors into the different Successor Chapters not based on a previously existing Chapter structure but based on the ideology of the warriors. I.e. the overly zealous Marines went to the Black templars Chapter, the younger and calmer Marines went to the Crimson Fists Chapter, and the more experienced Veterans went to the Imperial Fists Chapter. At least that is how the lore had presented it in the WH40K sourcebooks. By that account, there would have not been a concept of "the Black Templars" or "the Crimson Fists" within the old Imperial Fists Legion.

 

Though I think I vaguely remember reading about a "Templar" formation within the Imperial Fists Legion. Probably from the same Black Library sources that turned Sigismund from a simple but honoured warrior into the Legion's first Captain. (And made Dorn teh commander of the Imperial defenses, instead of Sanguinius.) Sigismund having been a former Legion Commander has its own issues with the later formation of the Black Templars, but the notion that the Black Templars were somehow the former 1st Company of the Imperial Fists Legion would be quite the departure from their previous lore.

[Kol Saresk]

It might very well be. But unfortunately nothing conclusive is said as Astelan sees it and asks "what is that?" when he sees a badge other than the Dark Angels' sword and it is only referred to as the badge of the knightly order that Belath had belonged to on Caliban. It could very well be the Chapter heraldry, even though nothing says it is just as much as nothing says it isn't. If someone wanted to create a Heresy force with a Chapter of Dark Angels known as the Order of the Raven's Wing, I certainly wouldn't stop them. I'd just let them be aware that from a fluff perspective it is unconfirmed and could be subject to change.

 

EDIT: Legatus, nothing has said that Dorn is the overall commander of the Imperial forces during the Siege. At the moment he is the only Primarch at Terra. It would be rather difficult for someone to coordinate the defenses of a planet they aren't even near. Also, nothing says that the more zealous of the Imperial Fists who followed him were solely from Chapters/Companies outside of his command. It very well could have been a mixture of those under his command to those originally outside of his command.

[Gamanos]

Rule of Cool my friend.

For example, my hurdle jumping is as follows:

My IF army is based on the siege of the Emperor's palace. As the Fists had raided Mars previously to obtain the new marks of armour, I have to do a lot less converting as it's permissible that the Siege defenders would have used the new suits to become on par with the traitor legions while leaving me the option to use mk2/3/4 suits where I can be bothered.

As long as you can ratify your rule of cool in your head, then don't worry about it. That's why Yarrick has an Ork Power Klaw really when you think about it, only difference is a GW staff member wrote it in a book

[Brother Immolator]

Kol_Saresk, thanks for the heads up on the RW and Hadariel. I was remembering it the same but I didnt want to argue the points without having them confirmed first hand. Also I think Sanquinius and the blood angels were also at terra.