godking Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Who was the better siege engineer between Perturabo and Dorn ? My Choice is Perturabo. Chiefly because the Iron Warriors actually do plan for defeat and have protocols for when a position becomes untenable And because Perturabo made Dorn his bitch in the Iron Cage where Dorn needed Guilliman to save him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Oh boy, we're in for a ride uh. I believe it's a draw though, Dorn came up with Phalanx without any STC schematics. That's some engineering feat. As for the second point Iron Cage was no siege. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300810 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Dorn nor Pert have thus far been shown as one being better than the other. They are different and that makes the comparing them complex. But I will say this... Alpaharius is the superior siege engineer. Or Omegon or the other Alpharius, anyway you get the jist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300821 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 Dorn nor Pert have thus far been shown as one being better than the other. They are different and that makes the comparing them complex. But I will say this... Alpaharius is the superior siege engineer. Or Omegon or the other Alpharius, anyway you get the jist. Perturabo flat out beat Dorn in the iron cage Dorn had to rescued by Guilliman. Perturabo is the more complete siege engineer in that he plans for both victory and ''failure'' Dorns plan when things dont go his way is to simply fight harder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300832 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 IIRC, the fluff for the Iron Cage also said Dorn walked into it because he was blinded by rage. So unless there is an equal-footing battle between the two, any opinions on who is better is simply a matter of personal opinion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300840 Share on other sites More sharing options...
godking Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 IIRC, the fluff for the Iron Cage also said Dorn walked into it because he was blinded by rage. So unless there is an equal-footing battle between the two, any opinions on who is better is simply a matter of personal opinion. Being blinded by rage is not an excuse unless your name is Angron ;-). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 The fluff for the Iron Cage says two different things. The Imperial Fists fluff basically says that Dorn was intentionally leading the Fists on a suicide mission because they didn't want to split up into chapters. The Iron Warriors fluff says he was blinded by rage and outmatched. It's one of the best bits of writing in 40K because of it, IMO. (EDIT: and an excellent example of why filling in details with the truth of what happened isn't always an improvement) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Dorn nor Pert have thus far been shown as one being better than the other. They are different and that makes the comparing them complex. But I will say this... Alpaharius is the superior siege engineer. Or Omegon or the other Alpharius, anyway you get the jist. Perturabo flat out beat Dorn in the iron cage Dorn had to rescued by Guilliman. Perturabo is the more complete siege engineer in that he plans for both victory and ''failure'' Dorns plan when things dont go his way is to simply fight harder. You missed my point. The HH fluff is being re written. The Iron Cage as it was is, like most of the other fluff, is on borrowed time (and in my mind now irrelevant). Therefore my statement. I get that you an Iron Warriors fan and thats nice and all, but you asked to compare two generals that are thus far in the "current" line of fiction pretty much equal. And as I said Alpharius is the better siege breaker. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300862 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I would speculate from the background and information known about the two that Dorn would be the consumate defensive siege defender and Perturabo would be the consumate siege attacker. I think they are both siege masters and engineers but it just seems from the background and the composition of the two Legions and their "specialties" and in light of their past special rules it would make sense. If I wanted to defend the castle I would choose Dorn and if I wanted to tear it down I would pick Perturabo but I bet they are likely the best out of the Primarchs in a siege-type battle whether offensive or defensive. I dont think either would especially outshine the other; they are mirrors of each other in alot of ways: Draconian, siege-experts, stubborn, enjoy/immune to physical pain, morose, prone to bursts of anger etc. Their emnity makes the most sense to me out of the many hate-fests that occur between Primarchs and Legions: they are the same (except in communicating) but one got handed the keys to the Ferrari and was given nice clothes and titles while the other was told to go mop up the bathroom floors after his brother's made a mess. Anyways, Dorn for defensive works and Perturabo for offensive works and both would groan at World Eater siege tactics. edit: I am not sure if Alphy would be a better "siege" breaker Demus. I would venture to say he would be a better "population" or "planetary system" breaker and not a breaker of static, linear or assymetrical systems of defense/fortification. Dorn and Perturabo crack open castles while Alpharius breaks the populations by strife, and undermining the population, not undermining the castle walls (siege wordplay yay!) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith IV Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Siege of Terra. 55 days. That is all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300943 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demus Ragnok Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I would speculate from the background and information known about the two that Dorn would be the consumate defensive siege defender and Perturabo would be the consumate siege attacker. I think they are both siege masters and engineers but it just seems from the background and the composition of the two Legions and their "specialties" and in light of their past special rules it would make sense. If I wanted to defend the castle I would choose Dorn and if I wanted to tear it down I would pick Perturabo but I bet they are likely the best out of the Primarchs in a siege-type battle whether offensive or defensive. I dont think either would especially outshine the other; they are mirrors of each other in alot of ways: Draconian, siege-experts, stubborn, enjoy/immune to physical pain, morose, prone to bursts of anger etc. Their emnity makes the most sense to me out of the many hate-fests that occur between Primarchs and Legions: they are the same (except in communicating) but one got handed the keys to the Ferrari and was given nice clothes and titles while the other was told to go mop up the bathroom floors after his brother's made a mess. Anyways, Dorn for defensive works and Perturabo for offensive works and both would groan at World Eater siege tactics. edit: I am not sure if Alphy would be a better "siege" breaker Demus. I would venture to say he would be a better "population" or "planetary system" breaker and not a breaker of static, linear or assymetrical systems of defense/fortification. Dorn and Perturabo crack open castles while Alpharius breaks the populations by strife, and undermining the population, not undermining the castle walls (siege wordplay yay!) My point about Alpharius is that there wouldn't be a siege. He would find the way to fight the war without breaking the fortress. Unconventional warfare for the win! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3300948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Konrad Curze is the best siege breaker, for when the banners of his Legion were sighted entire fortresses threw down their weapons and threw open their gates. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301068 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 My point about Alpharius is that there wouldn't be a siege. He would find the way to fight the war without breaking the fortress. Unconventional warfare for the win! I would take Corax over the twins or the Night Haunter. Ninjas plus what they did in 'Saga of the Weregeld'. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301238 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Correct me if I'm wrong but... Dorn is better at Building stuff... Where Peturabo likes tearing stuff down?It's like comparing a demolitions expert with an architect.You could say they both excel at their own type of siege warfare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301329 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Perturabo was the prime siege master. His siege doctrines are included in the Codex Astartes, not Dorn's. Main reason being that Dorn was not very focused on Siege warfare at all, despite popular belief. What Dorn had was a very analytical mind, if a bit inflexible at times. That meant his battles were excellently planned, but the Imperial Fists sometimes had a hard time to adjust to changing conditions, which meant that they excelled mostly in static battles, i.e. either attacking or defending a fortification. The determination of the Imperial Fists led to a reputation as steadfast defenders, but also helped them to crack the tougher enemy positions. So they were known to be excellent in siege situations, but they were not focused or specialised in them as the Iron Warriors were. Perturabo is the "siege guy". Dorn is more like the "honourable defender guy". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Based on what I have read I do not think you can make an accurate comparison yet. Angel Exsterminatus gave us a wonderful and detailed look into Perturabo. No such thing has as yet been published for Dorn. The closest we get is the Lightning Tower and the bit in a Crimson Fist between him and Sigismund. I need more info on dorn in order to make a fair and complete comparison between the 2. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 It's like comparing a demolitions expert with an architect. Whereas Perturabo would be the architect that was (mis)used as a demolitions expert (according to angel exterminatus). What did Dorn ever build that lasted? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 As I recall, the Imperial Palace is still standing on Terra. It's walls were breached by the Nine Legions assaulting it yes, but it is still standing and therefore lasting. Oh, and the Phalanx too. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301616 Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshal seanisi Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Yes.. Phalanx.."one of the most amazing creations in the galaxy" Quote from when the Emperor first laid eyes on it. And as we all know the Imperial palace still stands. Dorn was in charge of the defense of it. That being said I would have to agree that Perturabo might have the upper hand in attacking where as Dorn might have the upper hand in defending. And as for Dorn falling into a trap well Perturabo fell into a few of his own. I don't want to elaborate in case some of you haven't read Angel Exterminatus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301657 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimdarkness Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Phalanx was a marvel of the dark age of tech or has that changed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301661 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 yes... All the traitor primarchs were miss used, betrayed, manipulated, etc etc in a way, but Dorn was(or rather became) the builder of the 2 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301663 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain ChonkE Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Well in all fairness, Dorn didnt design the Imperial Palace so much as militarized and re-engineered it. Legs: If Dorn was so poor at siegeworks and siege engineering why was he chosen over Perturabo to redesign the Imperial Palace? Guilliman certainly was not chosen and Perturabo was not chosen who would have been the other obvious siegemaster/fortification builder. Not alot of logic in that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The Phalanx was build in the dark age of technology, Dorn only discovered it according to the IA. The imperial palace was build before Dorn was even discovered. He was given the honor of fortifying it and those fortifications were razed by the iron warriors within 55 days during the siege of terra. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301875 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vardus Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The Phalanx was build in the dark age of technology, Dorn only discovered it according to the IA. The imperial palace was build before Dorn was even discovered. He was given the honor of fortifying it and those fortifications were razed by the iron warriors within 55 days during the siege of terra. I see it as an "unmovable object" (Dorn) versus an "irresistible force" (Perturabo). Dorn defends well, Perturabo breaks sieges. Yes the Iron Warriors and a myriad of other traitor forces broke the Imperial Palace defences, but they took 55 days to do so, 55 days for Imperial reinforcements to get within striking distance of Terra and force Horus in to a fatal gambit to try and end the war. As for the Iron Cage, my understanding is that the Imperial Fists were slowly being whittled away but the Iron warriors could not get the ultimate decisive blow in. Then the Ultras arrived and tipped the balance. Again "unmovable object" versus "irresisable force". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eorek Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 The Phalanx was build in the dark age of technology, Dorn only discovered it according to the IA. The imperial palace was build before Dorn was even discovered. He was given the honor of fortifying it and those fortifications were razed by the iron warriors within 55 days during the siege of terra. I believe they were razed by the combined might of all the traitor legions? besides they never broke through Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/270998-better-siege-engineer-perturabo-or-dorn/#findComment-3301941 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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