Better siege engineer Perturabo or Dorn ?

[Kol Saresk]

According to the Imperial Fists IA article it was believed that the Phalanx was a leftover relic that had been discovered by Dorn before he himself was discovered by the Emperor. Lightning Tower by Dan Abnett says that the belief was wrong and that Dorn built it. Also, Dorn was still responsible for adding to the Imperial Palace and probably its rebuilding after one, two, three... well at Legions at least depending on if any EC actually participated in the Siege rather than just running around slaughtering civilians elsewhere. So yes, the Phalanx still stands and the Imperial Palace as Dorn had a hand in its construction before the Siege of Terra and probably after. The closest thing we have to a straight up conflict between Dorn and Perturabo was the Iron Cage. The problem was that it was not a straight up fight so yes, I still believe the "best" will always be a matter of personal opinion.

EDIT: There is also this little tidbit from the very beginning fo the Imperial Fists IA article:

"The Legion's early actions were extremely successful; while the Great Crusade pushed forward, the Imperial Fists acted as the strategic reserves of the Emperor's forces. Able to deploy quickly and reliably when and where required, the Imperial Fists struck the decisive blow in many battles. Their detailed planning made them especially efficient at sieges and their resolute endurance made them superb city fighters. They remained the Emperor's Praetorians throughout the campaign and when he returned to Terra to build a capital from which to rule an Empire of a million worlds, the Emperor took Rogal Dorn with him. Dorn was tasked with fortifying the Imperial Palace, an honour that did not go unnoticed by the other Primarchs."

So that just doesn't say that Dorn fortified the Imperial Palace, but he fortified it during its construction. So yes, he did have a hand in building the Imperial Palace.

Also, here is what the IA article says on the Phalanx, which is found at the literal beginning of the article:

"The Great Crusade had reached the Ice Hives of Inwit when Rogal Dorn presented himself to the Emperor for the first time. He arrived at the helm of the Phalanx, the great mobile station that was to become the Imperial Fists' Fortress-Monastery. The ship was his gift to the Emperor and its like had not been seen since the Dark Age of Technology."

That's it. No word is made of whether it was found or constructed, just that the technological know-how of it hadn't been seen by the Imperium since the Dark Age of Technology. But since The Lightning Tower says that Dorn built it, it was built by Dorn. So, two things that Dorn built that are still standing, both after being assaulted by Nine Legions: The Phalanx and the Imperial Palace.

EDIT SECUNDUS: I forgot my complimentary "This still doesn't say that one Primarch is better than the other and any claims to the contrary are simply a matter of personal opinion as the fluff surrounding the "showdown" is conflicted depending which account you read and then again becomes a matter of personal opinion depending on which account you hold over the other."

EDIT TERTIUS: Imperial Palace, 55 days, 8-9 Traitor Legions vs. 3 Loyalist Legions. Suddenly seems different from just saying "Imperial Palace, 55 days" doesn't it?

[Legatus]

Legs: If Dorn was so poor at siegeworks and siege engineering why was he chosen over Perturabo to redesign the Imperial Palace?

Because Dorn was very successful during the Crusade, not least because the Imperial Fists were constantly given very prestigious assignments, while the Iron Warriors were given the thankless, inglorious and dirty assignments.  And Dorn was probably all around a more pleasant company than Perturabo. The kind of guy you can present to the people of Terra as one of your glorious Primarchs.

[Kol Saresk]

What's this? Legatus not quoting an Index Astartes, the fount of all knowledge? But actually I am surprised that you would say that Dorn was bad at siegework when the IA says that he excelled at it. Although between them and the Iron Warriors, it seems that the Iron Warriors were the long-range siege experts while the Fists where the up-close-and-personal since the IF also excelled in cityfighting, which is pretty Close Quarters all around IIRC.

[Legatus]

I never said Dorn was bad at siege work.

[Wade Garrett]

As I understand it, the Legions of the Warmaster breached the outer walls and the fighting spilled into the Palace interior, although they never managed to take the entire structure.

 

And fluff has given a variety of things credit for breaching the walls, including Khârn, the Dies Irae, the Iron Warriors, and the Night Lord Raptors.

[Kol Saresk]

My bad Legatus, I confused "poor quality" with "bad."

 

@WADE: I thought Zso Sahaal's Raptors were simply the first on the walls, not the first to breach it? I can't confirm as I don't have my book on me.

[Legatus]

Neither did I say Dorn was "poor" at sieges. In fact, I said he was excellent at it.

 

Chaplain ChonkE simply paraphrased my "Dorn is not specialised in sieges, his skillset just works well in such situations" as "Dorn is poor in sieges".

[Kol Saresk]

Yes, and I was going by the quote. Hence why I said I was confused.

[Vesper]

EDIT TERTIUS: Imperial Palace, 55 days, 8-9 Traitor Legions vs. 3

Loyalist Legions. Suddenly seems different from just saying "Imperial

Palace, 55 days" doesn't it?

You mean 5-6 traitor legions, right ? Considering the EC were out having fun.

Legions at "full" (but purged) strenght on Horus side :

Sons of Horus

Death Guard

World Eaters

Iron Warriors

Thousand Sons

... Because Night Lords and Word Bearers elements at Terra were nowhere close to a legion.

Breaching the huge and mighty imperial palace with an astarte advantage of only 2 for 1 in only 55 days ? I'd say that makes Perturabo the ultimate siege weapon.

[Brother Keyaetus]

I reckon the emperor (in all his falseness) chose the wrong primarch to defend his palace. If he'd chosen Perturabo then sure, it may not of looked pretty, but damn it''d of been effective. He'd of probably planted nukes along every few miles off that they lost to the traitors or something radical like that, terra might of been a complete mess after the seige had finished (more so than it is now) but I reckon the palace wouldn't of been breached to the stage of the emperor needing to confront Horus.

 

Although that'd of all been in vain as the noble Perturabo would of turned to Horus while in the palace and opened the gates. Yay for treachery!

[Octavulg]

The loyalists had a bunch of Guardsmen, three Titan Legions and three Space Marine Legions (of which only two were inside the Palace itself - the White Scars ran around outside).<br /><br />The traitors had a bunch of Guardsmen (presumably more than the Imperials), eight Space Marine Legions (the four Cult Legions, the Word Bearers, the Night Lords, the Iron Warriors and the Sons of Horus), a crapload of daemons, and at least two Titan Legions (probably a lot more). And orbital superiority. And were lead by the Warmaster.<br /><br />Dorn still looks impressive from where I'm standing.

[Vesper]

I disagree. Wor Bearers and Night Lords at Terra were just tiny parts of their legion. And the primarchs of those legions weren't here. Plus the SoH, WE, EC and DG just had been purged of a third of their force... And the TS just suffered a defeat on Prospero and had all their non-psykers astarte turned into puppets of Tzeentch.

Orbital superiority only meant that the loyalists couldn't be reinforced. The emperor palace had void shields. That's why Perturabo and the titans took the field in order to tear down the walls. And if the traitor were led by Warmaster Horus himself, the loyalists had the emperor. And the two only fought aboard the Vengeful Spirit.

[Squark]

Could have sworn that the Thousand Sons were only lobotimized after the Horus Heresy,  *checks* Granted, I don't have the Index Astartes III, but lexicanum does cite it when it says the rubricon came afterwords.

[Kol Saresk]

... Because Night Lords and Word Bearers elements at Terra were nowhere close to Legion.

Actually that is assumed. Night Lord numbers are unsure. Nothing that I know of says they were or were not at full strength, or as full strength as they could be. Also, remember that the 7years is being fully spanned out and explained. IIRC, it was originaly assumed that the Word Bearers were split fifty-fifty between Calth and Terra. But now the situation is that whatever Word Bearers that didn't flee with Kor Phaeron have apparently rejoined the Word Bearers Legion. And since the Word Bearers were one of the larger Traitor Legions(possibly the largest since they had enough numbers at Calth for Gulliman to think it was the entire Legion and enough numbers left over to assault 99 other worlds within a matter of months and consider the loss of the Abyss and its 1,000 Marines plus the losses at Calth[including Kor Phaeron's numbers] negligible), "Legion" strength becomes comparative. 3,000 EC surviving the Heresy is not the same as 3,000 Ultramarines surviving the Heresy. The EC, being one of the smaller Legions, would probably be somewhat close to full steength while the Ultramarines would be considered woefully understrength.

 

And just because the Night Lords Legion split into six Great Companies, I do not yet know of any fluff that says how many of the six Great Companies did or did not participate in the Siege. Especially since every Night Lord character we have come across remembers being at the Imperial Palace, except for Sevatar because he hasn't reached that point in time yet.

 

So it would actually be 7-9, depending on how much of the Night Lords and Emperor's Children actually participated as there where someone EC involved according tothe audiodrama Perfection. And it would be versus an Imperial Fists Legion that lost who knows how many at Phall with another sizeable contingent at who knows where in the galaxy, a Blood Angels Legion that was mauled at Signus Prime and a who knows what strength capacity White Scars Legion. I don't know if that makes it better or worse, or for which side.

[Vesper]

 

So it would actually be 7-9, depending on how much of the Night Lords

and Emperor's Children actually participated as there where someone EC

involved according tothe audiodrama Perfection. And it would be

versus an Imperial Fists Legion that lost who knows how many at Phall

with another sizeable contingent at who knows where in the galaxy, a

Blood Angels Legion that was mauled at Signus Prime and a who knows what

strength capacity White Scars Legion. I don't know if that makes it

better or worse, or for which side.

 

I'm not trying to argue that the traitor were at even numbers with the loyalists. Just saying that the ratio of astarte in the attackers camp wasn't overwhelming considering that it's a siege situation (if you don't outnumber the defenders, you're making a huge strategic mistake). Which makes Perturabo a total boss, because he broke through the biggest fortress world of the galaxy.

On the NL and WB, I stand by the only source telling us in detail the entire battle of terra : IA IV.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

 

@WADE: I thought Zso Sahaal's Raptors were simply the first on the walls, not the first to breach it? I can't confirm as I don't have my book on me.

 

I was going by the quote in ADB's trilogy, Xarl on the Bleeding Eyes:

"I hate how they never shut up about being the first ones into the Emperor's Palace."

 

As for the sieging, there were members of every Legion on Horus's side on Terra (11 30K Legions gathered and none of them were Alphas undercover? I think not), vs the Fists, Angels, and Scars, who as previously stated had already been worn down by the events of the Heresy. As for the Emperor's Children, I think it's a stretch to go from "Contingents of Fulgrim's Legion ran amuck through the great hive blocks of Terra" to "The III contributed absolutely nothing towards the Traitor war effort".

 

At the very least, Lucius would have been prancing around trying to test his swordsmanship against the Custodians.

 

Anyway, from Angel Exterminatus one could easily state that Perturabo is the best siege guy, but we haven't really had any chances to see Dorn shine, and I too shall withhold judgement until the Fists get their book.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, I was remembering the same quote, just differently.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

3:1 is the general rule in military circles as to what is needed to take on an entrenched defensive position and have a chance of winning. I think Chaos brought in more than enough Marines to fill that role and enough Lost, Damned, daemons and traitor guard to balance out the human forces of Earth. They also had WAAAAY more Titans but I think that might change... still, the old stuff says basically every titan legion that was not on Terra went over to Horus. That is alot of firepower and the Terra of 30k isnt the Fortress World of 40k. That 'baddest Fortress World ever' was created because of the Heresy as to never have a 2nd Siege of Terra by the forces of Chaos. Thor and the Sons of Dorn had a good go at it though ^.^

[terranraida]

Before mentioning that "perturabo razed the imperial palace in 55 days" lets take a look at what was attacking the palace, shall we?

Death Guard

World Eaters

Sons of Horus

Night Lords

Word Bearers

Emperors Children

Thousand Sons

Traitor Titan legions

Traitor army units

Daemons

 

The defenders had:

3 Titan legions

1,500,000 army troops

White Scars

Sisters of Silence

Custodes

Imperial Fists

Blood Angels

 

Now. 55 days seem like quite a lot of days when stacked up against an invasion force like that, doesn't it?

[Vesper]

You know, defending a position is a little bit easier than attacking one, no wonder some sieges go on for years. Only two months to breach into the most heavily fortified and defended place in the galaxy is something quite awesome to put on your resume.

Then, as I said, until a retcon, WB and NL legions were elsewhere. Those on Terra by then aren't a significant part of their legions.

 

 

As for the sieging, there were members of every Legion on Horus's side
on Terra (11 30K Legions gathered and none of them were Alphas
undercover? I think not)

You are right but [spoiler ALERT] they were fighting on the loyalist side.

[Kol Saresk]

Isn't Sevatar supposed to have died on Terra? And he hasn't been demoted from 1st Captain yet right? And he still is follwing Curze everywhere right? And he does lead at least 1/6 of the Night Lords with more than one of the Kyroptera willing to follow him into battle right? I think the "retcon" has already happened.

 

Didn't Marduk make mention of how he was stuck on Calth while the rest of the 34th Host was with Lorgar on Terra? And isn't most of the Word Bearers Legion currently following Lorgar out of Ultramar? Again, I think the retcon has already happened. It may not be "cast in stone" but the mould is ready for it to be smelted into iron.

[Vesper]

Ah ? Funny how it's easy to change things. When Curze and Lorgar were obviously elsewhere, now they're on Terra. Oh, I hope they will retcon the outcome ! I want Horus to win !

 

EDIT : In fact, that's another reason why it would make the siege pretty poor. Back then, the galaxy was at war, now all the Chaos forces are on Terra... The WB, NL and AL were supposed to slow down loyalists, they did it, more or less (just less, in fact), and now they're on terra because of magic ? Or Warp ? That's pretty weak. Do they consider they've done their job or something, because that doesn't make sense to me.

I guess i'll stick with the version that makes sense.

[Legatus]

A lot gets changed around. In the collected visions book, Lorgar is said to have led the attack on Calth from orbit. In 'Know No Fear' he is not even there. But of course, back then that battle was also said to have happened at the end of the Heresy, not right at the beginning of it.

[Kol Saresk]

Everything I can find says Lorgar has been at Terra. Nothing about Curze although the Night Lords are mentioned.

 

And both articles are source Index Astartes Article IV. So not sure how that is a retcon exactly.

 

Can someone with access to that specific article please give a word for word quote of who was there? I'm not at home at the moment but I'd like to double check.

 

Legatus: IIRC, didn't the Heresy used to be 7 years that were talked about like in a manner of months?

[Legatus]

The Heresy was 7 years, but it was never comprehensively mapped out from beginning to end. The very brief descriptions were usually along the lines of "after the Istvaan Massacre, Horus made his way towards Terra, where he then besieged the Imperial palace". So those descriptions sort of glanced over the 6-7 years of galactic civil war it took him to get there, but that is a brief description of a long gone historical era for you. You would not assume that it was that long from that description, but if you knew about the duration from other sources, those descriptions were not technically inaccurate. At least I don't think they were. It is kind of like saying "After Hitler conquered France he tried to invade Russia, but was then defeated when he was repelled by the Russians while also being attacked by the Allies." From that brief description you perhaps wouldn't get that all of that took 6 years.

 

One thing that was always specifically noted in the sources was that the Ultramarines only learned at the very end about what was going on, when Terra was already under attack. Their lack of involvement was also used to explain why the Ultramarines had so much more manpower left when it came to the Second Founding. That has now been completely changed.