Better siege engineer Perturabo or Dorn ?

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah, that's what I thought happened because I remember when the series was first coming out and it was brought up that the Heresy took 7 years, a lot of people freaked out because they thought it took like a few months or so and it was pointed out that even then it was like 7 years and for some reason I always remembered the "condensed" version being the basis for part of the Word Bearers being at Calth while the rest were at Terra with Lorgar. I can't say that I have ever heard of Lorgar not being at Terra. Even before the series began.

 

Hmm, to a degree the older is plus, but in my opinion it would make it worse for the Ultramarines as well. Here is the largest Legion imaginable being held up by a portion of another Legion.

 

In the current continuity, the Battle for Calth might be over with the Battle of Calth moving to the underground caverns and apparently the Ultramarines are a big enough threat that Lorgar didn't want to meet them during The Butcher's Nails. And there were enough reinforcements that could come to Calth that when said reinforcements went to Nurcia, if it wasn't for so many ships being destroyed in orbit the Word Bearers and World Eaters on the surface would have been wipe out due to the sheer numbers of Ultramarines.

 

So while they may have taken a hit more proportional to the fact that they are hundreds of thousands strong, they still have enough numbers to count a big enough threat that they have to be blockaded by an impenetrable warp storm.

[Kol Saresk]

Post Secundus:

 

@Legatus: What is the source exactly for Lorgar leading the fight at Calth? Going through Index Astartes IV Dark Apostles- Word Bearers, I am finding this:

 

While the Emperor had chastised the Word Bearers, they watched with jealous hearts as he championed the Ultramarines as his finest warriors. When the Heresy erupted and the shackles of loyalty were cast off, the Word Bearers set upon the Sons of Ultramar with unbridled hatred. The Ultramarines were initially stunned, and Lorgar was able to push them back to Ultramar, the region of space that the Ultramarines govern and defend. It was upon the world of Calth that the final battle would take place. Famed for its orbital shipyards, Calth was a typical world of Ultramar. Its inhabitants were wealthy and generous, knowing little in the ways of want or fear. In many ways, theirs was a paradise, and as such it was not to last.

 

When the Word Bearers launched their attack against the Ultramarines, the strike against Calth was led by one of Lorgar's greatest champions, the former Master of the Faith, Kor Phaeron. This mighty champion swore to utterly destroy the planet, and was very nearly successful. From his personal battle barge, now renamed Infidus Imperator, Kor Phaeron directed a full-scale invasion of the Calth System. Calth's three sister planets were all destroyed, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart at the core. Its once gentle sun was laced with deadly metals and substances that increased the star's radiation output tenfold. Within a century after the Heresy's end, the final elements of Calth's atmosphere were burned off, the world left airless, its populace now dwelling in gigantic underground caverns. Upon its surface, the Word Bearers fought the Ultramarines to a standstill. The traitors held superiority in numbers, weaponry and brutality, but the Ultramarines would never give in. As driven as the warriors of Lord Kor Phaeron were, they could not dislodge the Ultramarines, many of whom had once called the planet home.

 

The war upon Calth was devastating and horrific. Ancient codes of warfare and martial conduct were broken and set aside by the Word Bearers as all manner of death and destruction was unleashed. The Ultramarines were stunned by the millions of cultists the Word Bearers used as human shields and disgusted by the hordes of daemons unleashed as shock troops. The Word Bearers, in turn, had underestimated the tenacity and resolve of their hated foe. In the end, Lord Kor Phaeron was defeated when reinforcements from Macragge drove the Word Bearers from the surface of Calth. Kor Phaeron retreated all the way to the Maelstrom, a turbulent region of the galaxy where the Immaterium of Chaos seeps through into the material realm of the universe. The Ultramarines were victorious, and their leader, Brother Captain Ventanus, would one day set foot upon a broken Colchis, symbolically capturing the abandoned home world of the Legion that had once threatened to enslave Ultramar.

 

While Kor Phaeron set his men upon Calth, Lorgar was leading the rest of the Legion against Terra. The horrors of the battles there were beyond the comprehension of mortal beings and fill many vaults of the Library Sanctus. Lorgar helped smash down the realm of the master he had once served with the fanaticism of a zealot. Suffice to say, Horus was defeated, and the legions of Chaos were forced to flee. The Word Bearers were also forced to retreat to the Eye of Terror, and there they have remained, returning to the Imperium to raid, pillage, and destroy, awaiting the chance to reclaim what was once theirs.

 

It doesn't exactly look like a retcon that so many Ultramarines died(as the exact number is unspecified), or that Kor Phaeron led the battle at Calth and Lorgar went to Terra. Unless there is an older source that says so, in which case it isn't new so I find it weird that it's BL's fault when GW did it first. And now timeline is given fro Calth other than it took a century to become completely airless. Heck, it doesn't even describe if the attack was a blitzkrieg or like it happened in Know No Fear. Although I have to say, between going through this IA article, The First Heretic, Know No Fear and Betrayer with things like the Gal Vorbak and the Vakrah Jal, I definitely understand the attraction to Word Bearers.

 

EDIT: Something that is also interesting to note is that while nothing says that the Night Haunter was at Terra, nothing says he wasn't either. But the Night Lords IA article does make a point to mention that the Night Lords "carved a bloody trail towards Terra."

[Wade Garrett]

Well, Sevatar has expressed an intention to be at Terra come the final day, and as of "Prince of Crows" he and Curze seem to be traveling togather. Of course, that's a rather insubstansial cloud to build a castle on, and ADB's response to queries has been to press his palms togather and look inscrutably enlightened.

[Kol Saresk]

But the Night Lords series does say that Sevatar died on Terra. Although whether or not he "died" is unconfirmed thanks to Mercutian's little input on the topic. But even if he survived Terra, either way it goes he was at Terra.

[Legatus]

@Legatus: What is the source exactly for Lorgar leading the fight at Calth?

The Collected Visions book, mainly. The Index Astartes of the Word Bearers did not include Lorgar in its description for the Battle for Calth, but neither did it mention Roboute Guilliman. The Index Astartes only mentions Kor Phaeron and Captain Ventanus as the protagonists. It was in the Collected Visions book where the Primarchs are inserted into the account:

 

"The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships, whilst his most trusted lieutenants were tasked with making the first strike against the planet of Calth.

From the battle Barge Infidus Imperator, Lorgar's greatest champion, Kor Phaeron, launched a full-scale invasion of the Calth System. Supporting him was the archfiend Erebus, foremost Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers.

Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads that were boiling away its surface and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers.

The Legion of the Word Bearers descended on Calth, Dark Apostles at the fore, bolters singing, accompanied by hordes of frenzied cultists. The Battle for Calth had begin..."

(The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 162)

 

The following two pages describe in a bit more detail how Captain Ventanus manages to muster a defense on the ground, while Guilliman is leading his battered fleet against the fleet of the Word Bearers.

 

The Collected Visions account is already a bit of a retcon of the Index Astartes account, by adding both Primarchs to the equation. 'Know No Fear' retains Guilliman, but removes Lorgar (but putting him not near Terra, where the Index Astarets article had put him, but instead somewhere else within Ultramar; a vastly expanded Ultramar at that). It also basically retains nothing of the account given on the following two pages. The ground battles and space battles described in Collected Visions flat out never happen in 'Know No Fear'. Calth's sister worlds and its sun are not bombarded by Lorgar's fleet, but by the deus ex machina defense grid of Calth.

[Visitor13]

Is it explicitly stated anywhere that Dorn's doctrines have not been implemented into the Codex? The fact that Perturabo's were does really not imply that, IMO.

[Legatus]

I am sure there are certain treatises by Dorn included in the Codex. They just don't neccessarily have anything to do with sieges, since that was not what he specialised in.

[Brother Hadafix]

It wasn't just the Iron Warriors though, it is worth remembering that the Death Guard are masters of trench warfare and would have been highly involved, so when taking into account that Dorn had to prepare for the Death Guard and the Iron Warriors, what he managed far exceeds the Iron Cage of the Iron Warriors.

 

Dorn didn't have the power of the warp behind him either, and psychers are a game changer as are daemons.

 

So you have Imperial Fists, heavy support  and defensive experts, Blood Angels who are fast attackers, White Scars who are fast attackers, up against two experts in meat grinders with another two who specialise in fast attack, one that specialises in close combat, another in subterfuge, and a bunch of generalists.

 

55 days is a massive feat of resistance, and Dorn deserves praise as the best defensive strategist.

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Collected Visions book, mainly. The Index Astartes of the Word Bearers did not include Lorgar in its description for the Battle for Calth, but neither did it mention Roboute Guilliman. The Index Astartes only mentions Kor Phaeron and Captain Ventanus as the protagonists. It was in the Collected Visions book where the Primarchs are inserted into the account:

 

"The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships, whilst his most trusted lieutenants were tasked with making the first strike against the planet of Calth.

From the battle Barge Infidus Imperator, Lorgar's greatest champion, Kor Phaeron, launched a full-scale invasion of the Calth System. Supporting him was the archfiend Erebus, foremost Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers.

Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads that were boiling away its surface and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers.

The Legion of the Word Bearers descended on Calth, Dark Apostles at the fore, bolters singing, accompanied by hordes of frenzied cultists. The Battle for Calth had begin..."

(The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 162)

 

The following two pages describe in a bit more detail how Captain Ventanus manages to muster a defense on the ground, while Guilliman is leading his battered fleet against the fleet of the Word Bearers.

 

The Collected Visions account is already a bit of a retcon of the Index Astartes account, by adding both Primarchs to the equation. 'Know No Fear' retains Guilliman, but removes Lorgar (but putting him not near Terra, where the Index Astarets article had put him, but instead somewhere else within Ultramar; a vastly expanded Ultramar at that). It also basically retains nothing of the account given on the following two pages. The ground battles and space battles described in Collected Visions flat out never happen in 'Know No Fear'. Calth's sister worlds and its sun are not bombarded by Lorgar's fleet, but by the deus ex machina defense grid of Calth.

Actually, that says the same thing Know No Fear does. Lorgar is leading his fleet of warships in Ultramar, while Kor Phaeron and Erebus lead the strike against Calth. That quote doesn't say anywhere that Lorgar himself was at Calth. Of course, I haven't read the Collected Visions in ages (and don't particularly plan to, the writing is terrible :p), so it could say it elsewhere.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

@Legatus: What is the source exactly for Lorgar leading the fight at Calth?

The Collected Visions book, mainly. The Index Astartes of the Word Bearers did not include Lorgar in its description for the Battle for Calth, but neither did it mention Roboute Guilliman. The Index Astartes only mentions Kor Phaeron and Captain Ventanus as the protagonists. It was in the Collected Visions book where the Primarchs are inserted into the account:

 

"The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships, whilst his most trusted lieutenants were tasked with making the first strike against the planet of Calth.

From the battle Barge Infidus Imperator, Lorgar's greatest champion, Kor Phaeron, launched a full-scale invasion of the Calth System. Supporting him was the archfiend Erebus, foremost Dark Apostle of the Word Bearers.

Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads that were boiling away its surface and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers.

The Legion of the Word Bearers descended on Calth, Dark Apostles at the fore, bolters singing, accompanied by hordes of frenzied cultists. The Battle for Calth had begin..."

(The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions, p. 162)

The following two pages describe in a bit more detail how Captain Ventanus manages to muster a defense on the ground, while Guilliman is leading his battered fleet against the fleet of the Word Bearers.

 

The Collected Visions account is already a bit of a retcon of the Index Astartes account, by adding both Primarchs to the equation. 'Know No Fear' retains Guilliman, but removes Lorgar (but putting him not near Terra, where the Index Astarets article had put him, but instead somewhere else within Ultramar; a vastly expanded Ultramar at that). It also basically retains nothing of the account given on the following two pages. The ground battles and space battles described in Collected Visions flat out never happen in 'Know No Fear'. Calth's sister worlds and its sun are not bombarded by Lorgar's fleet, but by the deus ex machina defense grid of Calth.

Yeah, I got the same thing out of that that Lord_Caerolion did. We still see Lorgar commanding his fleet and telling everyone where to go. After all, he is targeting a specific one hundred worlds. Granted, the World Eaters probably didn't listen to well but hey, c'est la vie.

[Legatus]

Lorgar's ships bombard Calth's sister planets, and they attack the Ultramarine fleet. He does not do that personally in Know No Fear, does he? He is not with the fleet attacking the Ultramarine fleet around Calth, and the sister planets are destroyed by the defense grid, as far as I remember. The account from the Collected Visions also exclusively describes the battle for Calth, and no other engagement within Ultramar (which only consisted of eight worlds/systems back then), so "Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships" in this context indeed means that Lorgar himself was overseeing the Battle of Calth, and not just sending communiques over long distance.

 

"The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships (...) Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships (...) The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers."

 

And the next page (p. 163) continues:

 

"The savagery of the Word Bearers' assault left the Ultramarines reeling. Their fleet was scattered and entire planets destroyed by Lorgar's warships."

[Brother Keyaetus]

I don't see 55 days being a great feat at all. Sieges are rarely broken quickly. Hydra Cordatus took 3 months apparently in Angel Exterminatus (which Ive not read) and even the survivors in Chorral City survived for what seems to be a few months.

 

Covering that much ground and killing that many troops in the palace itself was always going to take a long time, it was never going to happen in a few days with one quick spearhead.

[Kol Saresk]

Lorgar's ships bombard Calth's sister planets, and they attack the Ultramarine fleet. He does not do that personally in Know No Fear, does he? He is not with the fleet attacking the Ultramarine fleet around Calth, and the sister planets are destroyed by the defense grid, as far as I remember. The account from the Collected Visions also exclusively describes the battle for Calth, and no other engagement within Ultramar (which only consisted of eight worlds/systems back then), so "Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships" in this context indeed means that Lorgar himself was overseeing the Battle of Calth, and not just sending communiques over long distance.

 

 

"The Word Bearers launched their surprise attack against the Ultramarines. Lorgar personally commanded his fleet of warships (...) Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships (...) The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers."

And the next page (p. 163) continues:

 

"The savagery of the Word Bearers' assault left the Ultramarines reeling. Their fleet was scattered and entire planets destroyed by Lorgar's warships."

I remember a moon being destroyed by the defense grid. But here's the thing, while you bring up a good point, I don't know if Collected Visions or the IA Article came out first, but since the Word Bearers IA article says that Lorgar wasn't at Calth, if it came after Collected Visions, then it was changed then, not now.

 

Also, Ultramar couldn't have had only 8 planets back then if they had three to lose. It's mathematically impossible for eight minus three to equal eight. So I am actually seeing a basis for the 500 worlds to exist. Thank you Legatus. :)

 

So in summary, the Collected Visions say that Lorgar was at Calth. The IA Article Dark Apostles - Word Bearers and Know No Fear say he wasn't. So if the order is IA, CV, then KNF, then yes it has been changed although since most of the fandom hold GW over BL in terms of who is right and wrong, I'm surprised they wouldn't hold the IA Article over Collected Visions. To me, not only is KNF the newest in that order, but 2 out of three say one thing while the CV stands alone so I'm going with the two out of three, especially if its an older and a newer source.

 

If CV was first, well that's rather obvious.

 

Hmm, actually while running a side search during the writing of this post, it looks like it was IA, CV then KNF. So what I said still stands. Two out of three with one being a GW source and one being a brand new BL source still trumps the standalone BL source which was published in the middle. I hate to say it but this is the reason why so many pro-GW fans discredit BL I think.

 

Although I'm not sure if I can say that is reflective on the author not doing enough research or if it somehow reflects on the editors for not catching it. Or whoever it is that is supposed to make sure that everything somewhat lines up with the continuity. Then again, maybe it was intentional to show the fallacy of a 40k Imperial Viewpoint looking back at a 30k event with only fragmentary knowledge. In that case it is interesting how it conflicts with the IA article.

[Legatus]

So in summary, the Collected Visions say that Lorgar was at Calth. The IA Article Dark Apostles - Word Bearers and Know No Fear say he wasn't. So if the order is IA, CV, then KNF, then yes it has been changed although since most of the fandom hold GW over BL in terms of who is right and wrong, I'm surprised they wouldn't hold the IA Article over Collected Visions. To me, not only is KNF the newest in that order, but 2 out of three say one thing while the CV stands alone so I'm going with the two out of three, especially if its an older and a newer source.

Oh, KNF changes quite a bit from the IA article. That article stated that Lorgar was attacking Terra while Kor Phaeron attacked Calth. Not only does KNF place Lorgar somewhere else, it also now has the Battle for Calth at the beginning of the Heresy. I also dearly missed the hordes of daemon shock troops descending upon Calth that were mentioned in the Index Astartes article. I just did not have Lorgar there.

 

Also, Ultramar couldn't have had only 8 planets back then if they had three to lose. It's mathematically impossible for eight minus three to equal eight. So I am actually seeing a basis for the 500 worlds to exist. Thank you Legatus. http://1.1.1.2/bmi/image.bolterandchainsword.com//public/style_emoticons/default/smile.png

My bad for being ambiguous. The eight worlds of Ultramar that are being described in various sources (like the 2nd Edition Codex Ultramarines and the 5th Edition Codex Space Marines) are those that still exist today in 999.M41. That number does not include Prandium, which had only recently been destroyed by Hive Fleet Behemoth. So neither does it include the planets that were destroyed during the Battle for Calth. However, those sources do explain that the realm of Ultramar is more or less unchanged from how it had existed during the Great Crusade, so they are incompatible with a new 500 world Ultramar.

[Unintentional Batman]

 

Oh, KNF changes quite a bit from the IA article.

 

And your beloved "2nd to 5th edition" stuff changed quite a bit from the original Rogue Trader days. Why aren't you bitching about that? Could it be because "2nd to 5th edition" fluff was more beningn on our glorious chapter than what was before or after that era where Ward uplifted Ultramarines and Lord Guilliman above all else (deservedly so)?

[Wade Garrett]

Post in thread about Dorn vs Perturabo, see argument about the Ultramarines.

 

WHHHHHYYYYYYYYYYYY?!?

[Olis]

That's a good point Wade. How about we get this back on topic, eh folks?

[Legatus]

Sorry, that tangent started since I pointed out that the Horus Heresy series may indeed change a lot about Dorn, citing how KNF changed the Battle for Calth as an example.

 

I don't think the Horus Heresy series is going to turn Dorn into a siege specialist, though. So I maintain my original claim that Perturabo is the only true siege specialist, while Dorn simply had an attitude and MO that was very suitable for static situations like sieges. Dorn was very analytical, and the Imperial Fists were steadfast in the defence and unrelenting in teh attack, which meant they were excellent in siege situations. But Dorn did not focus teh training of his Legion on sieges, and he was not actively refining siege methods and tactics in his spare time. Perturabo and the Iron Warriors on the other hand intentionally specialised in that particular type of warfare, preferring it over other MOs, and training to become better and better at it.

 

 

Edit:

And your beloved "2nd to 5th edition" stuff changed quite a bit from the original Rogue Trader days. Why aren't you bitching about that?

Oh, I dunno. Maybe because the subject was "does the Horus Heresy series change stuff".

[Chaplain ChonkE]

So the sections of the Index Astartes that you are taking bits and pieces from that state the IF Legion was "...especially efficient at sieges..."  "Perturabo was a master of fortification... Dorn had always been his[Perturabo's] match though..." and later when speaking of the reorganized IF Chapter it statees "They[iFs] retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare."   Then in the Army list on how to play IF's in 40k they have an ability called "Siege-Masters". Not "Siege-They are pretty fair at it by chance" or "Siege-they are too inflexibile to be any good at it" or "Siege-They are okay cause they are stubborn". "Siege-Masters". Very odd that it is the same exact ability that the Iron Warriors of the same Index Astartes series have [/sarcasm]. That seems very unambiguous. Do you just ignore the sections that dont mention the Big Blue Schoolboy or the Codex Astartes?

 

edit: Insert of [/sarcasm]

[Vesper]

Technically, it's a rule that bears no meaning in the fluff, a bit like "And they shall know no fear". It's not on the same level of actual fluff.

If you ask me, I'll say that this perticular rule is meant to make the IF some kind of counterpart of the IW. The IW have a strong fluff and feel, when the IF are more like "your local SM chapter with nothing special". It was obviously an attempt to make the rivalry between the two beneficial to the IF that pretty much needed it in order to not be too one dimentional.

Let's face it, the Battle of Terra and the Iron Cage pretty much ended this thread before it even started.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes the Horus Heresy has changed things. And it hasn't as well. For example, on the note of Dorn's defense of Terra, the original assertion was that Lorgar wasn't there. In the IA article, while Calth was happening, Lorgar was on his way to Terra, so Dorn did have to defend against the Word Bearers Legion.

 

In the Collected Visions, it is asserted that Lorgar was at Calth and therefore he could not be at Terra, retconning the Siege and meaning that Lorgar may not have participated at Calth.

 

Now, the Heresy has and hasn't retconned Calth again. In the case of whether or no Lorgar is at Terra, it aligns with the IA article. Lorgar will be at the Siege. Dorn will have to fight him and the Word Bearers. And Calth happened just before Lorgar completed the Ruinstorm and began his journey to Terra. In a general sense, it still aligns with the original IA article. As Calth still has underground battles, the Battle of Calth will be happening as Lorgar will begin his journey to Terra although in a specific sense, the Battle for Calth is already over and Lorgar is just now heading to Terra.

 

So, it is give and take. However, it does look like the Horus Heresy is loosely following the IA articles. Which does make sense as the IA articles are Imperial(therefore hardly unbiased) historians looking back at events of ten thousand years ago with only bits and pieces of information that may or may not be accurate, or even unbiased and the Horus Heresy is a first hand account of the events as they happened. Of course there will be changes, but very few of them will be as drastic as the IA article saying Lorgar was at Terra and the Collected Visions saying he wasn't.

[Legatus]

So the sections of the Index Astartes that you are taking bits and pieces from that state the IF Legion was "...especially efficient at sieges..."  "Perturabo was a master of fortification... Dorn had always been his[Perturabo's] match though..." and later when speaking of the reorganized IF Chapter it statees "They[iFs] retain their traditional skills in urban and siege warfare."   Then in the Army list on how to play IF's in 40k they have an ability called "Siege-Masters". Not "Siege-They are pretty fair at it by chance" or "Siege-they are too inflexibile to be any good at it" or "Siege-They are okay cause they are stubborn". "Siege-Masters". Very odd that it is the same exact ability that the Iron Warriors of the same Index Astartes series have [/sarcasm]. That seems very unambiguous. Do you just ignore the sections that dont mention the Big Blue Schoolboy or the Codex Astartes?

 

edit: Insert of [/sarcasm]

And humans and Orks both have Strength 3, that means they are 100% exactly equally strong. And getting punched by a human has about the same effect as being shot by an assault rifle.

 

...or, maybe we base our evaluation on the more detailed description, and not just on brief catch phrases or rule representations. The Index Astartes article explains why the Imperial Fists were better at siege battles than in other situations, and why they then also got such jobs more often during the Great Crusade. That they were so good for such situations was purely incidental. They did not intentionally seek such a specialisation themselves. Meanwhile, the Iron Warriors specialised in siege warfare from the get go, and did hardly anything else.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I wouldnt argue with the fact that I personally think that Perturabo is probably a better all-around siege expert than Dorn is; an expert in attack and defense. I would say that Dorn is just a better siege defender than Perturabo though and not on the same level as prosecuting a siege attack as Perturabo, where Dorn would attack in an aggressive Templar-like fashion. I do have issue with people claiming that Dorn and the IFs have no expertise in siege warfare when it is stated or alluded to in multiple places that it is an area of expertise for them which is only equalled or rivaled by the expertise of the Iron Warriors Legion. I mean, why would Dorn be asked in the first place as to whether or not the IWs could breach the walls of Terra? Would you ask Ronaldo the soccer player about who would be a better offensive line to block in American football? Sure, he would have an opinion but an inexpert one; the Primarchs were warfare geniuses asking the 'go-to'; guy in this siege defense situation about the performance of the 'go-to' guy in a siege attack.

You can ignore what you wish and that is fine but to state it as a 'truth' when the printed information and supporting traits say otherwise is just hiding your head in the sand. Sure you can state that there is a disconnect between the fluff and the table-top but when both support a conclusion you choose to ignore it. I could easily say Khan and the White Scars were expert siege breakers because they took the Starport in the Siege of Terra by that logic because they broke through siege lines and setup a lone defense and held forever against hordes coming from land, air and space. That isnt the truth though is it.

The thread is about who is a better siege engineer: Dorn was chosen to foritfy the Imperial Palace, Perturabo was not. Perturabo got to break open the walls of the Palace and got his time to shine as well. The Cage was likely a IW victory but only in the same way as the WBs could claim victory at Calth. They inflicted heavy casualties on the attacking forces but couldnt get the job completely done. Still Perturabo was elevated to Daemonhood (just like Lorgar was after his burning of the Ultramar system) so I would say he got a feather in his cap for that. Doesnt make him a better siege engineer but a better siege specialist. I like both Primarchs and Legions specifically because they are siege experts and the fact they are rivals in these matters. The contradictory IA fluff from multiple perspectives makes it even that much more interesting but it also casts a fog as to who was 'better', but to deny one was even in the ballgame is ignoring the written stuff that is presented for the IFs.

Yes Vesper, it is good to have the IFs have some distinguishing factors to separate them from being 'Yellow-Ultras'. They are a First Founding Legion and should have distinctive characteristics which set them apart from other Legions, even 'mirror' Legions like the Iron Warriors. It just seems that anything you and Legatus disagree with seems to be 'incidental' or 'irrelevant' from a fluff perspective. Step back and look at the information given; it is multisourced, contradictory but lends itself to having both Legions be very good at siege warfare with slight variations on how one is better than another in a certain aspect of a siege.

edit: Holy crap Batman! Use of quick edit to add a line turned into major edit to remove all the added marks! Mental note: dont use quick edit now

[Legatus]

I am not ignoring anything. In my very first post I stated that Dorn was excellent at siege warfare. But as I also said, that was purely because the general attitude and strengths of the Imperial Fists just so happened to coincide with the requirements of siege situations. That inherent proficiency then naturally led to them being used often for such situations during the Crusade, which then of course also lead to an increase in competence in that field. But Dorn and the Imperial Fists were not intentionally attempting to specialise in siege warfare. The Iron Warriors, on the other hand, did exactly that.

 

Dorn was Perturabo's equal in siege warfare as much as Jonson was Russ' equal in combat. Yeah, they can go toe to toe and either of them can come out on top. But only Russ is remembered specifically for his fighting skills, and only Perturabo is specifically remembered as the siege specialist.

[Kol Saresk]

It may be true that the Imperial Fists "accidentally" specialized in siege warfare, however they apparently excelled in it to the point that they, not Perturabo, were picked to aid in the construction of the Imperial Palace.

 

I think I will agree with everyone else that Perturabo is the Siege Attacker while Dorn is the Siege Defender. Any opinions who is better are simply that, opinions. Perturabo may(or may not according to Angel Exterminatus) have intentionally picked Siege warfare, but Dorn apparently excelled in it as much as he had, even if it was from a different aspect.