Better siege engineer Perturabo or Dorn ?

[Vesper]

 

The thread is about who is a better siege engineer: Dorn was chosen to foritfy the Imperial Palace, Perturabo was not.

Indeed. Dorn was asked to fortify a palace that was never meant to be under siege, while Perturabo was were the action was.

 

The Cage was likely a IW victory but only in the same way as the WBs

could claim victory at Calth. They inflicted heavy casualties on the

attacking forces but couldnt get the job completely done. Still

Perturabo was elevated to Daemonhood (just like Lorgar was after his

burning of the Ultramar system) so I would say he got a feather in his

cap for that. Doesnt make him a better siege engineer but a better siege

specialist.

I think the IA of the IW is more reliable (being a traitor one, written from an imperial POV, it's not trying to throw propaganda everywhere). So I do think Perturabo let Dorn live, just to ashame him and make him understand who's the boss.

[Legatus]

I can think of various reasons other than pure qualification why the Emperor would have taken Dorn with him to Terra over Perturabo, even if the latter would have created a more effective defense. But I cannot think of any reasons other than qualification why Perturabo's siege tactics are specifically mentioned to have been included in the Codex Astartes, while Dorn's are not similarly mentioned.

 

 

Edit: The Index Astartes articles are not neccessarily written from an Imperial point of view. If the Iron Warriors account of the Iron Cage incident was written from an Imperial point of view, it would say the same as the Imperial Fists account. But it doesn't.

[Octavulg]

Keep in mind, Dorn in the Iron Cage isn't the full Legion. It's all the Marines who wouldn't leave to form other chapters. They leave 400 dead, and that's apparently enough to bring them into chapter size. So it's not even close to a full strength Legion.

 

This is against a force of unknown strength, in fortifications.

 

And Perturabo, this genius, manages a draw. Then the Ultramarines show up and he loses. To TWO CHAPTERS.

 

Oh. Well done, Perturabo. Well done.

[Wade Garrett]

Well, for all the discussion of the Iron Cage, let's not forget in Crimson Fist Perturabo had his own bout of "CHAAAARGE!" which depending on how you read the story would have ended with the Iron Warriors Legion either wiped out or crippled if Dorn's recall order hadn't come through, and one imagines the Astartes who set up the IF defense was using Rogal's tactics and doctrines.

 

Edit:

Or we could just make up stuff about the Iron Cage. Dorn hit that thing with his entire Legion, not "Two Chapters" and we know the Templars are like eight times the size of a normal Chapter anyway.

[Legatus]

Even though the term "Chapter" is often used in the IW and IF articles, the articles do suggest that the Imperial Fists Legion went into the Iron Cage, not just a single Chapter. For one, the IA IF states that "the entire Legion" made planetfall at the beginning of the engagement. The IA IF article also states that "the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge cleansed as a Chapter", and only mentions the formation of Successor Chapters after the Iron Cage incident had been resolved. That suggests that Dorn had originally planned to trim down the Legion so that only enough Marines for a single Chapter would remain, but since Guilliman intervened, there were enough Marines for three Chapters left. The Ultramarines are also referred to as a "Chapter", but in the IA IW it mentions their "mighty fleet".

The Deathwatch RPG sourcbook 'Rites of Battle' (p. 45) states that the Imperial Fists Legion went into the Iron Cage, and after Guilliman intervened Dorn finally agreed to divide the Legion into Chapters.

[Vesper]

The IA IF article also states that "the Imperial Fists would

symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge cleansed as a

Chapter"

I still think it only makes sense for the insane Dorn. The original plan was "'Yeah, I'll bring Perturabo in an Iron Cage in no time" and the following moment "Totally going accoding to the plan : we're getting slaughtered".

 

They leave 400 dead, and that's apparently enough to bring them into

chapter size. So it's not even close to a full strength Legion.

Nope. It is written that the IF failed to recover every gene-seed, abandoning 400 to the IW. So they lost more than 400. Now, keep in mind that this number is prior the shift from 10k marines to 100k marines per legion.

[Wade Garrett]

 

I still think it makes only sense for the insane Dorn. The original plan was "'Yeah, I'll bring Perturabo in an Iron Cage in no time" and the following moment "Totally going accoding to the plan : we're getting slaughtered".

YOU USE LOGIC!

LOGIC MAKE DORN ANGRY!

DORN SMASH!

[Legatus]

Or we could just make up stuff about the Iron Cage. Dorn hit that thing with his entire Legion, not "Two Chapters" and we know the Templars are like eight times the size of a normal Chapter anyway.

To be fair, the IW and IF articles do refer to the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines as "Chapters" in a few instances. But in other instances it speaks of the Imperial Fists "Legion".

 

Also, it stands to reason that at the time of their original Founding the Black Templars were a Chapter that conformed to the imposed regulations. They probably grew so big over the past ten thousand years of uncontrolled recruiting.

[Octavulg]

Wade Garrett

Or we could just make up stuff about the Iron Cage. Dorn hit that thing with his entire Legion, not "Two Chapters" and we know the Templars are like eight times the size of a normal Chapter anyway.

"Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chapters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong Chapters. Leaving Phalanx, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair." - IA: IF

 

The Templars were gone. The Crimson Fists were gone. The Soul Drinkers were gone if you buy that drek.

 

"Perturabo had no desire to fight two Chapters and concentrated on preventing the Imperial Fists evacuating their dead and wounded." - IA: IW

 

So the IA itself calls the Imperial Fists a chapter at this point.

 

"Rogal Dorn was a broken man. It was nineteen years before he and the Imperial Fists could once again go to war. They left over 400 Marines at the Eternal F'ortress and every refugee carried horrific wounds." - IA: IW

 

Those sound like Legion-scale casualties? Even if you assume they managed to evacuate some of their dead? Even with the old Legion numbers?

 

Go away. Or apologize. I'm good with either. But I'm damn well not "making stuff up".

 

* * *

 

Legatus

Even though the term "Chapter" is often used in the IW and IF articles, the articles do suggest that the Imperial Fists Legion went into the Iron Cage, not just a single Chapter. For one, the IA IF states that "the entire Legion" made planetfall at the beginning of the engagement. The IA IF article also states that "the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge cleansed as a Chapter", and only mentions the formation of Successor Chapters after the Iron Cage incident had been resolved. That suggests that Dorn had originally planned to trim down the Legion so that only enough Marines for a single Chapter would remain, but since Guilliman intervened, there were enough Marines for three Chapters left. The Ultramarines are also referred to as a "Chapter", but in the IA IW it mentions their "mighty fleet".

"There would be far too many left for one of the new thousand strong Chapters. Leaving Phalanx, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair." - IA:IF (emphasis added)

 

He took the die-hards. The rest stayed behind and made new successor chapters. Which is how they could take the field while the others were too battered to fight for twenty years.

 

If you want other confirmation, IA:BT and IA:CF are relatively silent about it - they talk about the Terrible Angel incident, and how Dorn agreed to form chapters after that. But which is more logical: Terrible Angel is fired on, Dorn makes new chapters, takes diehards to Iron Cage, forms new chapter from survivors? Or Terrible Angel is fired on, Dorn goes to Iron Cage with all the guys willing to make new chapters and gets them slaughtered too, then forms new chapters from survivors, two of which are ready for combat twenty years faster than the other?

 

Though, really, I think that IA:IF quote resolves it well enough.

 

If you take issue with the odd use of future tense language in that paragraph, consider the possibility that the non-diehards were busy forming new chapters while the Iron Cage was going on, so could still technically be considered Imperial Fists.

The Deathwatch RPG sourcbook 'Rites of Battle' (p. 45) states that the Imperial Fists Legion went into the Iron Cage, and after Guilliman intervened Dorn finally agreed to divide the Legion into Chapters.

Rites of Battle also thinks the BA and DA are the second-most popular sources of geneseed, and that the Salamanders have less pure geneseed than the Raven Guard (you know, the guys who need shipments from Mars to maintain viability?). It's a nice book, but I wouldn't take it as gospel.

 

* * *

 

Vesper

Nope. It is written that the IF failed to recover every gene-seed, abandoning 400 to the IW. So they lost more than 400. Now, keep in mind that this number is prior the shift from 10k marines to 100k marines per legion.

What it says is that "They left over 400 Marines at the Eternal Fortress and every refugee carried horrific wounds." - IA: IW

 

Now. "Left over 400 Marines" doesn't refer to geneseed. It refers to DEAD PEOPLE (if you want to claim it's geneseed, that shrinks their casualties, making Dorn more awesome. Don't try it). The Iron Warriors are specifically mentioned as trying to prevent the IF from evacuating their dead and wounded.

 

Even if we're generous and assume that they managed to evacuate half their corpses (a questionable exercise, in any case, unless their stuff was particularly shiny), those casualties still mean the Imperial Fists force was very small.

 

As to the numbers thing, it doesn't really matter. Even with the old Legion numbers, a nearly annihilated Legion under fire as it evacuates would leave a lot more than 400 corpses behind. An overstrength chapter wouldn't, though.

[Legatus]

As I said, the articles do refer to the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines as "Chapters" at various points. But since that was a time where the loyalist Marine armies operated as both, it is easy to get the two confused.

The articles also refer to them as Legion in various instances, not just by name but also in some cases in scale:
 

"The Imperial Fists countered precipitately with Thunderhawk-borne troops attacking the silos and a full combat drop of the rest of the Legion. " (IA IW)

"The traitor fleet was no stronger than that of the Imperial Fists but the loyalist Thunderhawks were on the planet's surface." (IA IW)

"The powerful Ultramarine fleet forced the Iron Warriors back while their Thunderhawks pluinged through the dust clouds to evacuate the Imperial Fists." (IA IW)

"(pre-cage) Without the fire of battle to engage them, Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink - the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered. (...) Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter. (...)

(post-cage) Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead.(...)

Early in their reorganisation, Space Marines from the Imperial Fists departed to found the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists." (IA IF)

The Imperial Fists Legion is said to drop down on the Iron Warriors, and they are described as "symbolically entering the pain glove as a Legion" to later emerge as a Chapter. The fleet of the Imperial Fists is also described to match that of the Iron Warriors Legion, which surely a reduced Chapter fleet would not be able to. The Ultramarines fleet is likewise refered to as "mighty", which again would not be the case for a single Chapter fleet. Yes, the article states that Perturabo did not want to fight "two Chapters", but these two "Chapters" are described as both matching his forces in strength.
The article of the Imperial Fists also quite specifically explains that the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists were formed during the reorganisation of the Imperial Fists, which happened after the Iron Cage.


Edit:

If you want other confirmation, IA:BT and IA:CF are relatively silent about it - they talk about the Terrible Angel incident, and how Dorn agreed to form chapters after that. But which is more logical: Terrible Angel is fired on, Dorn makes new chapters, takes diehards to Iron Cage, forms new chapter from survivors? Or Terrible Angel is fired on, Dorn goes to Iron Cage with all the guys willing to make new chapters and gets them slaughtered too, then forms new chapters from survivors, two of which are ready for combat twenty years faster than the other?

I think it makes sense that Dorn agreed to henceforth operate in Chapter strength, but that he wanted to trim down his Legion so that only enough for a single Chapter remain, so that he effectively does not have to split up the brotherhood. But Guilliman intervenes before the Imperial Fists have suffered that many casualties, and instead of enough for a single Chapter, the Legion has enough remaining men for three. Or rather, two and a bit, since the Imperial Fists Chapter itself would take two decades until they would be combat ready again. So it was more like 1000 for the Black Templars, 1000 for the Crimson Fists, and ~400 or so for the Imperial Fists.

[Octavulg]

A couple of specific points:

"(pre-cage) Without the fire of battle to engage them, Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink - the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered. (...) Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter. (...)

I'd point out that if the other Marines have left at this point, this would still be true. Whatever's left is the Imperial Fists, even if the CF and BT have left. The Imperial Fists will enter the glove. The other guys aren't Imperial Fists any more.

(post-cage) Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead.(...)

Early in their reorganisation, Space Marines from the Imperial Fists departed to found the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists." (IA IF)

If you think about it, the first paragraph implies the successor chapters already existed when the Fists were reorganizing.

 

The paragraph the second part of the quote comes from also sort-of implies Dorn was alive during the Age of Apostasy. I don't know that I trust this author's sense of chronology.

 

Also, I'd note that in the Crimson Fists IA, the remaining Imperial Fists are explicitly described as "die-hards". And also note that it would have been a lot easier for the author to just say "entire Legion" or something if he meant for that to be the case.

The Imperial Fists Legion is said to drop down on the Iron Warriors, and they are described as "symbolically entering the pain glove as a Legion" to later emerge as a Chapter. The fleet of the Imperial Fists is also described to match that of the Iron Warriors Legion, which surely a reduced Chapter fleet would not be able to. The Ultramarines fleet is likewise refered to as "mighty", which again would not be the case for a single Chapter fleet. Yes, the article states that Perturabo did not want to fight "two Chapters", but these two "Chapters" are described as both matching his forces in strength.

I believe it's been speculated before that many older Space Marine chapters have surplus vessels which can be recommissioned. In the immediate wake of the Scouring it would be reasonable enough for them to be crewed and in service.

 

Alternately, the Imperial Fists fleet is described as "extensive" in IA: CF - perhaps they just have a really big fleet. Ditto the Ultramarines - especially during the Scouring era, when the Codex is still new and everyone's getting around to handing over their shiny stuff.

 

Plus, my recollection is that Heresy-era fleets (at least when this stuff was written) included a lot of what would basically be ordinary Navy ships. Those'd be part of the Navy under Guilliman's reforms, but if Dorn hasn't given into those yet they'd still be available to the Fists for this.

The article of the Imperial Fists also quite specifically explains that the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists were formed during the reorganisation of the Imperial Fists, which happened after the Iron Cage.

Except there were apparently some who WERE willing to form new chapters - why get them all slaughtered? And this still doesn't explain the casualties. Losing 400 guys is virtually nothing from a force of 3000-odd (in 40K, anyway), even if they are Space Marines, and especially if you had extras (which they apparently did). It doesn't take twenty years to bounce back from that. Plus, the CF and BT were running about a lot faster than twenty years - it's faster to form a new chapter wholesale, reorganize it and take them into battle then it is to reorganize the Imperial Fists? With a Primarch in charge? And the Legion's resources available? And especially considering almost everyone who survives is described as very grievously wounded.

 

Actually, there's another option I hadn't really presented - Dorn's mentioned as "leaving Phalanx" and taking his die-hards: what if he just left everyone else back on Phalanx? It'd explain how they were ready to form chapters so quickly. If Dorn dies, they can work out what to do on their own. If he doesn't, they can form successor chapters. Either way, problem solved as far as Dorn's concerned. Explains the casualties and the odd chronology. The only major discrepancy is the "legion enter the Pain Glove" line, but that can be hyperbole easily enough.

[Visitor13]

But I cannot think of any reasons other than qualification why Perturabo's siege tactics are specifically mentioned to have been included in the Codex Astartes, while Dorn's are not similarly mentioned.

 

Storytelling considerations. If you need to mention a Traitor Primarch's doctrines in the Codex, Perturabo's seem the most likely choice. The others are too blunt (WE, DG), too dishonorable (NL), too unorthodox (TS, AL) or likely have too much overlap with Gulliman's. Now that doesn't mean that they aren't there, but if you wanna show that Gulliman learned from the traitors too, Perturabo seems the most comfortable choice to be mentioned explicitly.

[Vesper]

"Perturabo had no desire to fight two Chapters and concentrated on

preventing the Imperial Fists evacuating their dead and wounded." - IA:

IW

Which means that by the time of the UM's arrival, the IF were no more than a chapter. And that Perturabo's plan wasn't to engage both UM and IF (it's clearly stated that he counted on Dorn's pride, and he was pretty successful), he made his point. The "pain glove" still seems like a big fat excuse to what is called the Iron Cage Incident. It's called an incident for some reason, I can see the IF trying to hide the shame by going all "BUT WE DID IT ALL ON PURPOSE !" which would be quite retarded, when you think seriously about it.

On the casualties, with the relatively recent changes in the legions, we could say that 4000 dead IF (not geneseed, you're right ) were spirited by the IW (who left the planet after the UM's arrival, having "no desire to fight two Chapters"... Which mean they tried to prevent the IF to evacuate their dead while leaving the planet themselves. Obviously, they left many dead IF lying around.

[Kol Saresk]

On the note of the Imperial Fists fleet, correct me if I am wrong but don't we have examples of Astartes vessels eing led by individuals who are not of the Legion? For example, The Conqueror and The Vengeful Spirit. Of course, we also have examples of the other side of the coin with the Lion leading his flagship.

 

But the point stands. Jus because a ship is a Legion ship, it doesn't mean that it has to carry Astartes or even be commanded by one. So the existence of a fleet does not mean that the Legion came to the Iron Cage. Combined with everything else, it looks more like the remnants of the Imperial Fists Legion came to the Iron Cage, fleet and all, and what left is what would become the Imperial Fists Chapter.

[Vesper]

 

But the point stands. Jus because a ship is a Legion ship, it doesn't

mean that it has to carry Astartes or even be commanded by one. So the

existence of a fleet does not mean that the Legion came to the Iron

Cage. Combined with everything else, it looks more like the remnants of

the Imperial Fists Legion came to the Iron Cage, fleet and all, and what

left is what would become the Imperial Fists Chapter.

 

 

When the chapters were created, the legion they came from gave them ships and equipment. The said legion is literaly split into chapters. So that means that if the IF fleet matched the IW one, they were still a legion (even if the IW weren't on full force at the Iron Cage, being scattered in every corner of the galaxy, the biggest part of their fleet was likely there).

[Kol Saresk]

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't there a concession saying that the newly formed Chapters would have fleets made of ships that were inferior to the Legion ships of old? For example, a 40k battle-barge that can only carry 300 Space Marines but a 30k Iron Hands Strike Cruiser with a capacity of 1,000 Terminators?

 

EDIT: But the point still stands. Each Chapter would only need just enough ships for the entire contingent of Astartes to be transported. If only 2,000 Marines were able to leave and become Chapters, they would only nee one or two Battle-barges and two to three strike cruisers. On a Legion size fleet, that would hardly be a hit on numbers of ships.

[Vesper]

Chapters still have a few 30 ships. The rest of their original fleet (they were given after their birth) was likely destroyed/lost, which is why the 40k sm fleet is mainly composed of newer ships that are inferior to their 30k counterparts.

 

EDIT: But the point still stands. Each Chapter would only need just
enough ships for the entire contingent of Astartes to be transported. If
only 2,000 Marines were able to leave and become Chapters, they would
only nee one or two Battle-barges and two to three strike cruisers. On a
Legion size fleet, that would hardly be a hit on numbers of ships.

Ah, sneaky edit.

It would be a strike cruiser per company, could be wrong though. Plus a substantial load of servitors, armour, equipment, ressources (homeworld, for example). Plus, in the dire time of the Scourging, the secound founding had to be strong to survive (proof is, many second founding chapters still exist by 40k). You also have to consider that the IF just made it through the Heresy. So yes, creating chapters is a huge deal on every aspect. That's in fact the whole point, to lower the power of the legions. The IF were still a legion by the time of the Iron Cage, with a legion fleet and legion strengh.

[Wade Garrett]

If the Iron Cage was 1,000 Fists vs the whole Iron Warriors Legion, the Dorn looks nuts for saying he could haul Pert back to Earth, and Perturabo either sent his Marines to LAPD marksmanship school OR loaded their bolters with nerf darts if he only managed to kill 400 of Rogal's boys.

[Kol Saresk]

Let me ask this a different way. How much of a Chapter's fleet is made up of Space Marines? How many escorts does a fleet have? If the entire fleet was in a naval battle, how many Space Marines would be on the escorts or the strike cruisers or the battle barges after the main forces landed?

 

Now how about if we translate those numbers into Legion terms, what would they be?

 

But hey, losing only four hundred people is an impressive feat. In the older 10k Astartes terms, it would equal to a 4% percent loss. Assuming that the entire Legion went downthere. Although that would leave numbers for up to eight Second Founding Chapters. In the newer 100k terms, it would mean a 0.4% loss. Pretty amazing for walking into a trap.

[Vesper]

But hey, losing only four hundred people is an impressive feat. In the older 10k Astartes terms, it would equal to a 4% percent loss. Assuming that the entire Legion went downthere. Although that would leave numbers for up to eight Second Founding Chapters. In the newer 100k terms, it would mean a 0.4% loss. Pretty amazing for walking into a trap.

You should totaly consider reading my posts.

On the casualties, with the relatively recent changes in the legions, we

could say that 4000 dead IF (not geneseed, you're right )

were spirited by the IW (who left the planet after the UM's arrival,

having "no desire to fight two Chapters"... Which mean they tried to

prevent the IF to evacuate their dead while leaving the planet

themselves. Obviously, they left many dead IF lying around.

And you'll notice that it took two decades for the IF as a chapter to recover (when the entire legion took the field).

[Knight of the Raven]

A Traitor Legion would still be referred as a legion regardless of its actual size. Could it be the Iron Warriors weren't that much more numerous than the Imperial Fists because of the meatgrinder of the Imperial Palace?

There's also the possibility the writers of the Index Astartes made mistakes. It could be 400 survivors and Games Workshop never bothered correcting the articles for all we know.

[Kol Saresk]

But hey, losing only four hundred people is an impressive feat. In the older 10k Astartes terms, it would equal to a 4% percent loss. Assuming that the entire Legion went downthere. Although that would leave numbers for up to eight Second Founding Chapters. In the newer 100k terms, it would mean a 0.4% loss. Pretty amazing for walking into a trap.

You should totaly consider reading my posts.

On the casualties, with the relatively recent changes in the legions, we

could say that 4000 dead IF (not geneseed, you're right )

were spirited by the IW (who left the planet after the UM's arrival,

having "no desire to fight two Chapters"... Which mean they tried to

prevent the IF to evacuate their dead while leaving the planet

themselves. Obviously, they left many dead IF lying around.

And you'll notice that it took two decades for the IF as a chapter to recover (when the entire legion took the field).

Yes, I have read your posts. And I also acknowledge that with the exception of quotes from sources, both of our posts are nothing more than our opinions. Just as you have the right to choose not to accept what I write, I have the same right to say "We'll see how it pans out."

[Octavulg]

When the chapters were created, the legion they came from gave them ships and equipment. The said legion is literaly split into chapters. So that means that if the IF fleet matched the IW one, they were still a legion (even if the IW weren't on full force at the Iron Cage, being scattered in every corner of the galaxy, the biggest part of their fleet was likely there).

IA:CF tells us how many ships the Crimson Fists and Black Templars got. They got a battle-barge, several strike cruisers, and some rapid strike vessels.

 

That sound like it's even a significant fraction of a legion-scale fleet? Even with the old numbers? You really think the Imperial Fists only had one or two Battle Barges?

[Vesper]

 

When the chapters were created, the legion they came from gave them ships and equipment. The said legion is literaly split into chapters. So that means that if the IF fleet matched the IW one, they were still a legion (even if the IW weren't on full force at the Iron Cage, being scattered in every corner of the galaxy, the biggest part of their fleet was likely there).

IA:CF tells us how many ships the Crimson Fists and Black Templars got. They got a battle-barge, several strike cruisers, and some rapid strike vessels.

 

That sound like it's even a significant fraction of a legion-scale fleet? Even with the old numbers? You really think the Imperial Fists only had one or two Battle Barges?

 

After the Heresy ? Yes, I consider that all the legions and their fleets are pretty diminished.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I have always figured the two "Legions" to be somewhat equal in size and composition with the IWs being a bit more numerous from having an orderly retreat from Terra and the Fists taking more losses due to the nature of the siege and their stubborn reputation. Both of them would hardly be close to full strength and the Fists were likely to have suffered greater losses from Scouring era actions as well.

 

Wade Garrett: Dorn did go nuts when the Emperor died. He lost touch with what was going on around him and went on a retribution crusade.

 

Vesper: You are starting to sound like a complete Chaos apologist. Are you one of those fans that is convinced Abaddon is completely undefeated in his Black Crusades? If you do and believe that meeting 'goals' is the objective of an overall war-action, then the Imperial Fists achieved the objective they had of going into the Cage; killing off enough guys to have a Chapter left. Funny thing is that the Cage was just a skirmish (albeit a large one) and not even close to the scale of a Black Crusade in scope: one success in a sea of defeat isnt real victory to me, just like in the Horus Heresy Scouring the Traitor Legions got their rears kicked out into the Eye of Terror and Maelstrom with the Emperor still on his throne. I still weigh in on the side that the IWs likely got the better of the Fists but they didn't massacre the Legion and they didnt win some great victory. It was a minor victory at best as they failed to meet the IW goals. In Abaddon BC victory terms does that mean they lost? And to completely ignore or disregard one IA over another when they are both biased propaganda is just ignorant; like I said earlier, you just dismiss fluff and pick and choose that to go along with your own bias. That is fine but dont consider yourself to be some great purveyor of truth because your opinion will be just as narrow as the scope of your vision and interpretation.

 

Legatus: Of course since Dorn obviously isnt mentioned in the fluff of being in the Legatus-dex Astartes he must be crap. *rolls eyes* A majority of the Primarchs arent mentioned to have been in the Codex but it would make sense for all of them to be in the Codex in some chapter or another. Or is Guilliman so stupid to ignore the greatest war minds of his generation (and likely of all-times) to go in favor of tacticians of disimilar military composition who would teach things that the Primarchs already knew? Including the Prussians/Germans, Napoleon, Subotai and the like is great and all but pales when you have Dorn, Guilliman and Khan to teach these lessons with the troops and equipment of the day. Its like in Liechtenauer's fechtbuch teachings (which were repeated in later manuscripts such as Ringeck or Talhoffer), you would look at just the pictures (which represent the past generals) which are good starting references when it is really the verses and poetry that teach the real lessons of movement, engagement, mindset and how to best use the equipment being presented (the Primarchs). Just because the fluff isnt filled out to say all the Primarchs had sections in the Codex you jump to the conclusion that this Primarch must be superior to that one. Perhaps the Codex is as narrow and restricting in the Graham McNeill tradition of Ultrawriting as you believe it to be or it is as all encompassing as I believe it to be.

 

In any case, both of these guys were very good at what they do; siege warfare. You dont get good at warfare/combat by happenstance by the way. You practice practice practice because natural ability will only take you so far.

 

edit: spells