Better siege engineer Perturabo or Dorn ?

[Vesper]

 

I still weigh in on the side that the IWs likely got the better of the

Fists but they didn't massacre the Legion and they didnt win some great

victory. It was a minor victory at best as they failed to meet the IW

goals.

Turning a legion (even a damaged one, like every single one of them after the Heresy) in a chapter that needed 2 decades to be able to take the field is pretty much a massacre that mirrors the dropsite one a bit. On the goals, the two IA aren't saying the same. The IW one states that Perturabo played with the IF and chose no to annihilate them to teach Dorn who's the best, when the IF's IA states that the IF are awesome and that they couldn't be defeated (barely exaggerating). So in the end, it depends on which one you want to believe in.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I think most historical analysis of events and history recorded from two opposing sides you have to carefully consider the facts given and try to extrapolate what you can. Look at examples of the Mexican-American War histories and you'll find vastly different viewpoints and biases which have overlaps of truth in addition to the grandstanding. In the Cage: Perturabo challenges Dorn and Dorn accepts the challenge, two forces fought each other to a standstill with neither able to finish the deed over the other, Big Blue Schoolboy intervenes and the fighting ends. The rest is just interpretation and propaganda.

 

edit: And choosing one history over another just shows bias or an ignorance that there are two opposing viewpoints. Since you seem to be aware of the other viewpoints you just "prefer" one side over the other which as I said earlier, narrows your sight of the situation and shows your bias. This is also why the Cage is one of my favorite pieces of Warhammer 40k lore because it is written in that style. Gotta love it.

[Vesper]

You're eluding some facts that are in the two IA articles. The horrific losses of the IF that made them unable to be deployed for two decades. The obvious victory of the IW (being able to defeat the IF without taking heavy losses, while stealing many bodies) which led to the UM's intervention. The pride of RG that made him fall into Perturabo's trap : "I will bring him back to Terra in an Iron Cage".

 

 

two forces fought each other to a standstill with neither able to finish the deed over the other

According to their IA, the IW weren't even trying to annihilate the IF.

[Wade Garrett]

 

Wade Garrett: Dorn did go nuts when the Emperor died. He lost touch with what was going on around him and went on a retribution crusade.

 

If you do and believe that meeting 'goals' is the objective of an overall war-action, then the Imperial Fists achieved the objective they had of going into the Cage; killing off enough guys to have a Chapter left.  

edit: spells

 

Post should have said "even nuttier", since it is pretty clear that pre and post Siege of Terra Dorn were two different animals. And the degree of coo-coo bird required to have "Get a whole bunch of my own troops killed" as your stated objective is...look, even Daemon Prince of Khorne Angron doesn't care from where the blood flows, only that it does. He's not actively TRYING to sacrifice his own guys.

[Octavulg]

After the Heresy ? Yes, I consider that all the legions and their fleets are pretty diminished.

The Fists fleet is still described as "extensive" in IA:CF. You really think three Battle Barges and a bunch of Strike Cruisers is extensive?

 

This would be after seven years of rebuilding, too. The fleet could be quite substantial. Especially when, as I pointed out, you consider all the ships that were to become part of the Imperial Navy - I'm pretty sure the Legions didn't keep their entire fleets when they became chapters.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

Le sigh.

 

Yes, it says all of that in both articles. Not.

 

Of course it says things that will make both Legions look good in the eyes of the reader and intended audience. That is the point of having a biased narration. Of course the IW article says "Yeah, we did not finish the IFs cause we didnt feel like it" and of course the IF article says "We wanted to take casualties so we can create a Chapter strength Codex force". Its not going to say in the IW article "Oh we couldnt finish the IFs because we couldnt get the job done" or in the IFs "We were committing suicide by Space Marine en masse because Dorn was crazy". You just weigh one biased account more heavily than the other.

[Chaplain ChonkE]

I wont argue with that at all Wade. I think Dorn went absolutely insane after finding the Emperor and interring him into the Golden Throne. He lost sight with governance allowing the Codex mandates to become established while going on a mad vengeance ride. I am not a Dorn apologist and even though I am a BT at heart, Sigismund is my man and not Dorn. I even think Sigismund told Dorn to "Go to Hell" with how his actions allowed the ratification of the Codex and the falling out of reputation the IFs had with human Imperial military forces post-Golden Throne. So yeah, I think nuttier doesnt even begin to describe where Dorn was at.

[Vesper]

 

After the Heresy ? Yes, I consider that all the legions and their fleets are pretty diminished.

The Fists fleet is still described as "extensive" in IA:CF. You really think three Battle Barges and a bunch of Strike Cruisers is extensive?

 

This would be after seven years of rebuilding, too. The fleet could be quite substantial. Especially when, as I pointed out, you consider all the ships that were to become part of the Imperial Navy - I'm pretty sure the Legions didn't keep their entire fleets when they became chapters.

 

"Extensive" must be put in perspective. The Heresy and the Scouring bled every legion white.

 

 

Of course it says things that will make both Legions look good in the

eyes of the reader and intended audience. That is the point of having a

biased narration. Of course the IW article says "Yeah, we did not finish

the IFs cause we didnt feel like it" and of course the IF article says

"We wanted to take casualties so we can create a Chapter strength Codex

force". Its not going to say in the IW article "Oh we couldnt finish the

IFs because we couldnt get the job done" or in the IFs "We were

committing suicide by Space Marine en masse because Dorn was crazy". You

just weigh one biased account more heavily than the other.

That is because I consider that the whole point of Perturabo was to let Dorn live with his legion slaughtered and the actual proof of his superiority. Letting him live is the ultimate insult, something like "From now on, you'll live with that shame". You are right when you say that I weigh more in favour of the IW. It's no fanboyism or something like that (even if I really like the IW, I also like the IF), it's just that I find it more believable than "I will bring back Perturabo to Terra in an iron cage...  And while I'm at it, I will try to make all my men die in the process, for good mesure". Perturabo torturing Dorn out of bitterness and chosing to let him live to carry that shame (another way to torture him) makes sense and is pretty awesome story-wise.

 

[Chaplain ChonkE]

You continuously admit that you are basing your opinion and interpretation from one side yet tell us you are being objective with the facts though. That is the issue I have with this whole conversation. I appreciate that you think it is more believable and it fits more into the "Rule of Cool" in your interpretation but dont take your Vesperverse 40k and present them as legitimate facts and balanced interpretations; they are not.

[Vesper]

I did not ! Well, sorta when I said that the IW's goal wasn't the annihilation of the Fists, but the rest is shared by the two IAs actually.

[Legatus]

Octavulg:

 

(post-cage) Cleansed by their sacrifice, the Imperial Fists immediately began their reorganisation. For the next two decades they went into retreat, their successor Chapters taking to the field in their stead.(...) Early in their reorganisation, Space Marines from the Imperial Fists departed to found the Black Templars and the Crimson Fists." (IA IF)

If you think about it, the first paragraph implies the successor chapters already existed when the Fists were reorganizing.

I don't think that's what it implies. The mperial Fists start reorganising immediately after the Iron Cage incident. They create three different Chapters, one of which retreats for two decades, the other two are active.

 

The paragraph the second part of the quote comes from also sort-of implies Dorn was alive during the Age of Apostasy. I don't know that I trust this author's sense of chronology.

Reads to me like in the Age of Apostasy the Imperial Fists Chapter still enjoyed the excellent reputation that Dorn had helped to build.

 

"In particular, Rogal Dorn was more amendable to requests from other institutions for assistance than other Primarchs, and this built a valuable store of goodwill. When the Age of Apostasy engulfed the Imperium none of the protagonists were willing to risk their good relations with the Chapter, which continued to conduct a campaign against the Ebon League unaffected."

 

I believe it's been speculated before that many older Space Marine chapters have surplus vessels which can be recommissioned. In the immediate wake of the Scouring it would be reasonable enough for them to be crewed and in service.

I don't think I have ever read material suggesting that any Chapter maintained Legion strength fleets.

 

Losing 400 guys is virtually nothing from a force of 3000-odd (in 40K, anyway), even if they are Space Marines, and especially if you had extras (which they apparently did). It doesn't take twenty years to bounce back from that.

If the Imperial Fists Chapter was Founded significantly understrength, it could well have taken twenty years for them to get back up to full strength. Or even just a strength at which they feel comfortably fighting.

 

 

---

 

Visitor13:

 

But I cannot think of any reasons other than qualification why Perturabo's siege tactics are specifically mentioned to have been included in the Codex Astartes, while Dorn's are not similarly mentioned.

 

Storytelling considerations. If you need to mention a Traitor Primarch's doctrines in the Codex, Perturabo's seem the most likely choice. The others are too blunt (WE, DG), too dishonorable (NL), too unorthodox (TS, AL) or likely have too much overlap with Gulliman's. Now that doesn't mean that they aren't there, but if you wanna show that Gulliman learned from the traitors too, Perturabo seems the most comfortable choice to be mentioned explicitly.

That Perturabo's siege tactics are included in the Codex Astartes is not mentioned in the Ultramarine sources, though. It is mentioned once in the description of the Iron Warriors in the 3rd Edition Codex Chaos Marines, and once in the Index Astartes of the Imperial Fists, to underline the expertise of Perturabo, whom Dorn was about to face, in siege warfare. That same article could have pointed out "but Dorn's siege tactics were also included", or the combat doctrine section could point out that the Imperial Fists were such masters at siege warfare that their tactics were included in the Codex. But the article states no such thing. Instead, it clearly explains that it was merely the inherent attitude of the Imperial Fists that meant they were well suited for siege situations.

 

 

---

 

Chaplain ChonkE:

Legatus: Of course since Dorn obviously isnt mentioned in the fluff of being in the Legatus-dex Astartes he must be crap. *rolls eyes* A majority of the Primarchs arent mentioned to have been in the Codex but it would make sense for all of them to be in the Codex in some chapter or another.

But it is the Imperial Fists Index Astartes article that points out that Perturabo's siege tactics are included in the Codex Astartes. It is not the Iron Warriors article. The point is that the Iron Warriors are routinely characterised as the siege masters who do nothing but sieges. The Imperial Fists in contrast are described as excellent planners and determined warriors, which incidentally meant that they were very good in siege situations.

 

One is "their inherent traits work especially well in sieges", the other is "they are siege specialists who do nothing but sieges".

[Octavulg]

Legatus

I don't think that's what it implies. The mperial Fists start reorganising immediately after the Iron Cage incident. They create three different Chapters, one of which retreats for two decades, the other two are active.

 

...

 

Reads to me like in the Age of Apostasy the Imperial Fists Chapter still enjoyed the excellent reputation that Dorn had helped to build.

Remember the context, though. The first paragraph I quoted is then followed by an explanation of how the successor chapters left. The second is then followed by an explanation of what the Imperial Fists kept doing, then of Dorn's death. Both seem somewhat temporally unhinged.

 

I'd also point out that you haven't addressed the solution I proposed where Dorn didn't take his entire legion with him, which resolves the timeline issues, the diehards comment vs. the Legion comments, the number of casualty issues and the stupidity of taking all the guys willing to leave along to die horribly.

[Legatus]

I'd also point out that you haven't addressed the solution I proposed where Dorn didn't take his entire legion with him, which resolves the timeline issues, the diehards comment vs. the Legion comments, the number of casualty issues and the stupidity of taking all the guys willing to leave along to die horribly.

That would certainly be a possibility. Though I would wonder why Dorn would take on the (remainder of the) Iron Warriors Legion with only a small fraction of his own Legion, if he would have had a few extra Chapters/Great Companies to back him up. He probably did not just intend to suicidally sacrifice some of his men. He probably also would have preferred to take down Perturabo or at least drive the Iron Warriors from that world, if possible. The IA IF certainly gives the impression that that was indeed Dorn's intention, even if he also saw it as an "opportunity" to decimate his own ranks at the same time. And if it was his intention to take on and defeat the Iron Warriors, he would not have left half of his Legion at home.

 

 

The second is then followed by an explanation of what the Imperial Fists kept doing, then of Dorn's death.

That paragraph simply lists two anecdotes. Two examples of the Chapter's history where the demeanor and conduct Dorn would pass on would come into play. It then continues to describe Dorn's fate.

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

The second is then followed by an explanation of what the Imperial Fists kept doing, then of Dorn's death.

That paragraph simply lists two anecdotes. Two examples of the Chapter's history where the demeanor and conduct Dorn would pass on would come into play. It then continues to describe Dorn's fate.

 

 

Didn't you both just say the exact same thing, just differently?

[Octavulg]

That would certainly be a possibility. Though I would wonder why Dorn would take on the (remainder of the) Iron Warriors Legion with only a small fraction of his own Legion, if he would have had a few extra Chapters/Great Companies to back him up. He probably did not just intend to suicidally sacrifice some of his men. He probably also would have preferred to take down Perturabo or at least drive the Iron Warriors from that world, if possible. The IA IF certainly gives the impression that that was indeed Dorn's intention, even if he also saw it as an "opportunity" to decimate his own ranks at the same time. And if it was his intention to take on and defeat the Iron Warriors, he would not have left half of his Legion at home.

A couple of options: not thinking it through, he overestimated his forces' abilities, half his legion is more than we think it is, he underestimated the size of the Iron Warriors force, he underestimated the capability of their defences, or he really was just feeling suicidal and wanted to kill off the old Imperial Fists.

 

Besides - consider what it means to put his Legion through the pain glove. There doesn't have to be a larger point - killing the Iron Warriors is nice. Sacrificing is more important. And the Imperial Fists had failed to protect the Emperor, had failed to preserve the old Imperium, had failed to fully stomp out the rebellion afterward. That's a lot of failure. It requires a lot of atonement. So those who are willing become something new, and those who aren't go to Sebastus IV to atone.

 

Plus, beating the Iron Warriors is a lot easier if you don't have to survive. If he assumed Perturabo would fight him (a not unreasonable assumption, since any other Primarch probably would have), then he kills Perturabo, the Legion wipes itself out fighting the rest of the Iron Warriors. Moral victory.

[omo667]

Who was the better siege engineer between Perturabo and Dorn ?

 

My Choice is Perturabo.

 

Chiefly because the Iron  Warriors actually do plan for defeat and have protocols for when a position becomes untenable

 

And because Perturabo made Dorn his bitch in the Iron Cage where Dorn needed Guilliman to save him.

 

My choice is Dorn

[Vesper]

 

There doesn't have to be a larger point - killing the Iron Warriors is nice. Sacrificing is more important.

 

There's a reason it's called the Iron Cage incident. That is because [prideful] Dorn bragged "Yeah, I'll bring Perturabo to Terra in an iron cage, it will be fun". That was the main objective... And a total failure.

Then, you'll notice that in every piece of fluff, there is absolutly no consideration for the size of the said legions. Everything points on Dorn making mistakes and being outmatched by Perturabo and the Iron Warriors.

[Shuggnuggath]

I'm pretty sure Dorn said No Enemy could get into the Imperial Palace when it is defended by the Imperial Fists. 

 

He was wrong.

[Olis]

I'm pretty sure Dorn said No Enemy could get into the Imperial Palace when it is defended by the Imperial Fists. 

 

He was wrong.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure the farthest the traitors got was the inner palace gardens, rather than inside the actual palace building itself. :huh:

[Vesper]

I'm pretty sure Dorn said No Enemy could get into the Imperial Palace when it is defended by the Imperial Fists.

He was wrong.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure the farthest the traitors got was the inner palace gardens, rather than inside the actual palace building itself.

IIRC, they were about to break in the inner sanctum when the emperor teleported to the Vengeful Spirit.

[Kol Saresk]

And don't forget that the Wolves and the Dark Angels were about to show up soon and that's why Horus lowered his shields.

[Wade Garrett]

Re: Iron Cage

 

Whether it was pride or the fact that Dorn was looking for a glorious death to atone for Terra, the fact remains that Perturabo set a trap and Dorn and the Fists stomped right into it, with disastrous results.

 

Even the Imperial description of the battle says the Fists were out of ammo and taking cover behind piles of their own dead.

[Trel]

I'm a Dorn loyalist to the end, but I think as a siege engineer Perturabo was better.

 

I don't think the Emperor's choice of Dorn to defend the Palace's walls had as much to do with Dorn's skill at siege defence (which was not inconsiderable) but more to do with Dorn's brand of unswerving agenda-free loyalty.  Half the loyalist primarchs had ambitious agendas of their own and would have refused the order and the other half couldn't be trusted to not attempt something heroic/rash/stupid.

 

I think Perturabo wasn't chosen because either the Emperor foresaw Perturabo's betrayal or saw in him the willingness to abandon the palace if that position became untenable.  Since the palace was such a powerful symbol, its loss, however tactically prudent, would be an unacceptable indicator that humanity's conquest of the galaxy was not set in stone.

[Octavulg]

Wade Garrett

 

Even the Imperial description of the battle says the Fists were out of ammo and taking cover behind piles of their own dead.

It says "Ammunition expended, Brothers fought in half-flooded trenches with combat knives, giving and expecting no quarter." Piles of their own dead is from the Iron Warriors IA (which, I might point out, spends the entire time aggrandizing Perturabo. The IF IA is rather more even-handed).

 

I actually always got the impression that the Iron Warriors were short on supplies too from that quote.

 

* * *

 

Legatus

 

Oh! I figured out part of why I had the impression things went in the order I originally suggested:

IA: IF: "In the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, the Imperial Fists became noticeably fiercer in their approach -attacking with virtually no reconnaissance and fighting on when a tactical withdrawal would have been wiser. With their adoption of the Codex Astartes, this tendency was less evident, although their determination was undiminished. Some of the more fanatical Battle Brothers had departed to become Black Templars - a Chapter on permanent crusade. Many of the more recent initiates, less rooted in the traditions and philosophy of the Fists, had departed to found the Crimson Fists. They quickly developed a reputation and a legacy of their own which was also a source of pride for the Imperial Fists. After the carnage of the Iron Cage, what remained was a hardened, veteran force fully able to embrace the concepts of the Codex Astartes."

 

Now, if we unpack that, the Fists become less ornery after adopting the Codex Astartes. When they adopt the Codex Astartes, some of the other brothers have already departed. Then the Iron Cage happens, and what's left is ready to fully adopt the Codex. The tenses in the paragraph are consistent with that interpretation, and the order is frankly only really logical with that interpretation. This conflicts with other things in the IA (but then, so does everything else).

 

In any case, I'm not sure it really matters, so long as everyone can agree the Crimson Fists and Black Templars didn't go to the Iron Cage. :P

[Vesper]

 

Piles of their own dead is from the Iron Warriors IA (which, I might

point out, spends the entire time aggrandizing Perturabo. The IF IA is

rather more even-handed).

And the IF makes his best to try to elude the contradiction between the main goal : get Perturabo, and the so called "pain glove".