Better siege engineer Perturabo or Dorn ?

[[TA]Typher]

Dorn held back over five legions and multiple titan groups during the siege of terra. While pert, was ever slow slowly winning it was costing a monsterously high toll on the traittors. If that doesn't impress u about dorn's skills u have no sense of scale.

 

With that said i don't beleive pert is a lesser primarch, jjust that he isn't any better than Dorn.

 

As dor the iron cage, that wasn't a matter of pert being better than Dirn, it was Dorn punishing himself for his percieved failures. If u know anything about the imperial fists, you'll know how the painglove works. Pert made a great trap, but a pre-imperial siege Dorn wouldn't have forced himself to suffer like that.

[Trel]

I don't think the Iron Cage incident has anything to do with either Primarch's siege ability. 

 

Perturabo's pride was badly hurt by being unable to take the Imperial Palace, regardless of the variables working against him.  Dorn was ... irrational for quite some time after the Emperor fell.  The Iron Cage was two emotionally traumatized brothers pummelling each other because neither knew how to express their feelings in a more constructive manner.  (Come to think of it, that's pretty much what the whole Heresy is about.)

 

Dorn's thinking was clouded with guilt and Perturabo's specific goal was only to hurt Dorn as much as possible.

[Vesper]

 

Dorn held back over five legions and multiple titan groups during the

siege of terra. While pert, was ever slow slowly winning it was costing a

monsterously high toll on the traittors. If that doesn't impress u

about dorn's skills u have no sense of scale.

He held five legions with three. In a defensive position, that's a very favourable ratio. Perturabo had a mission : break through as soon as possible (the traitor could have taken the palace without really committing themselves, but loyalists were en route to Terra, so they had to rush it). 55 days. That's awesomely quick for a siege.

[Dar'kir]

If you want a fortress broken you call in the IWs, if you wanted one defended you called in the IFs. Hence the better siege engineer is hands down Perturabo.

[Lagbenektelse]

One thing that grabs my attention as far as the idea of the Imperial Fists leaving 400 battle brothers in the Iron Cage being an indication of only chapter sized attack force.  What if the 400 weren't casualties in the sense of dead people but 400 captured?  Siege of Iron implies that using Imperial Fist gene seed is a known practice in the Iron Warrior's repertoire.  And how much more painful would it be for Dorn to know that he left some men behind.

[lokkorex]

didn't horus say that a war between his legion and dorns legion would last for eternity, the best in defense against the best in attack?

 

that cannot have made perturabo feel any better.

 

saying that one primarch is better than the other is pointless, they are each others match. that said, if there was a fight between them i will cheer on perturabo without a question.

[Grey Knight Purifier]

Okay. I'm not a fluff god like Legatus, Kol, or Vesper, but I do have a few things to say about the Iron Cage.

 

1. After the Siege or Terra, Dorn was not in his right mind. At all. He literally shattered his sword over his knee, and swore never to use it again. (Codex: Black Templar)

 

2. Canonically, only three chapters were created from the Imperial Fist Legion (four if you count TE Soul Drinkers.) The Imperial Fists, The Crimson Fists, and The Black Templar. (Codex: Black Templar)

 

3. As I understand it, Dorn, who at this point, (after the Siege of Terra) is mad with grief, picks up his entire Legion, and goes after Perturabo. Guillman has ordered the whole "split into chapters" thing, and Dorn refuses. (Codex: Black Templar.)

 

4. Things get a bit weird here, and I don't have concrete sources, just Subforum: Black Templar. As I understand it, Dorn basically went nuts and made planet fall, intending to whittle his legion down to chapter size, and get Perturabo in the process. It's a symbolic "pain glove"

 

5. Dorn can't seem to get to Perturabo, but Perturabo can't seem to land a decisive blow on the Fists either. As I understand it, Dorn and Perturabo are basically in a stalemate, grinding each other down on roughly equal terms, when The Ultramarines show up.

 

6. By this point, there are enough marines left that the marines most like Dorn form the Imperial Fists, the newish recruits decide to form the Crimson Fists, and the marine who are still full of rage form the Black Templar.

 

As I understand it, that is how events played out. Just my calm, collected two thrones.

[Vesper]

You forget two things :

 

- For two decades, the IF are unable to take the field because of the losses they suffered.

- According to the IW IA, Perturabo wanted to let Dorn live, in order to ashame him.

[Octavulg]

Yeah. Because the Iron Warriors IA is a bastion of objectivity and not slanted pro-Iron Warriors at all...

[[TA]Typher]

 

 

 

Dorn held back over five legions and multiple titan groups during the

siege of terra. While pert, was ever slow slowly winning it was costing a

monsterously high toll on the traittors. If that doesn't impress u

about dorn's skills u have no sense of scale.

He held five legions with three. In a defensive position, that's a very favourable ratio. Perturabo had a mission : break through as soon as possible (the traitor could have taken the palace without really committing themselves, but loyalists were en route to Terra, so they had to rush it). 55 days. That's awesomely quick for a siege.

 

You fail to add the titan legions, which add a huge advantage to the traitors. his alone should have given a huge (I'd say overwhelming) advantage to Horus/Pert. then you have to add in the Demons that were being summoned. Bloodthirster anyone? And lets not forget all traitor guard, although they aren't Space Marines, they shouldn't be discounted.

 

Look at some of the events that happened. Sigmund killed how many champions? I've never read of any chaos leader doing the same during the siege. The Khan had a majority of his forces locked at just the starport, which left only 2 legions at the main Palace. Over all it was much, much more them 5 legions vs 3, it should have been a irresistible force. I'd say that Dorn did a brilliant job deflecting it and blunting Pert's attempts to break the palace.

 

 

As for them being able to take the place in a slower assault without commiting themselves... I don't see it. Where do you read that at? As some point Astartes have to fight Astartes in massive battles. Using mainly Cultists or trying to starve them out just wouldn't work. Maybe if they virus bombed the planet, but even then that wouldn't kill all the defenders. The Imperial Palace is said to be massive. At some point the traitors would have to commit to a large scale battle. Waiting them out or winning through non-committal attrition just doesn't seem to be feasible.

[Vesper]

 

You fail to add the titan legions, which add a huge advantage to the

traitors. his alone should have given a huge (I'd say overwhelming)

advantage to Horus/Pert. then you have to add in the Demons that were

being summoned. Bloodthirster anyone? And lets not forget all traitor

guard, although they aren't Space Marines, they shouldn't be discounted.

I don't. The loyalists had titans too. Maybe a bit less, we don't know, but they had those too. And the loyalists had the whole planet and time to prepare themselves.

 

 

Yeah. Because the Iron Warriors IA is a bastion of objectivity and not slanted pro-Iron Warriors at all...

But maybe it knows better than the IF one what Perturabo had in mind. Just like the pain glove thingy with the IF IA.

[[TA]Typher]

 

 

You fail to add the titan legions, which add a huge advantage to the

traitors. his alone should have given a huge (I'd say overwhelming)

advantage to Horus/Pert. then you have to add in the Demons that were

being summoned. Bloodthirster anyone? And lets not forget all traitor

guard, although they aren't Space Marines, they shouldn't be discounted.

I don't. The loyalists had titans too. Maybe a bit less, we don't know, but they had those too. And the loyalists had the whole planet and time to prepare themselves.

From what I've read the Traitors had multiple Titan Legions, while the Loyalist only has 1 or 2. As for the whole planet used as defenders... you have realize that it was Terra, not a Cadia type planet. It's basically a administration planet. The few troops stationed there are mainly focused on the palace. And reading Bill Kings story regarding the siege, half of them turned to Horus when he arrived, giving him an instant spaceport.

 

Pert couldn't take the Palace, even with overwhelming force and all the power of Chaos itself. I'm not saying that Dorn could have done it if the situation was reversed, just that Dorn did an superhuman job organizing it's defense. Don't get me wrong, I think Pert is a great Primarch (Especially after readying Angels exterminatus), but I don't think he would have been so stubbornly focused as Dorn if he had been the Emperor's protector. There would have been a point where Pert would have had an exit strategy, while Dorn would have stayed until he won or died.

[Vesper]

Perturabo and the Chaos forces would've taken the palace. That is why the Emperor took the opportunity Horus gave him. Breaching the walls in only 55 days is something incredible. The siege itself is loosely based on the Fall of Constantinople (but the byzantines were even proportionally less numerous than the imperial defenders, yet, they managed to hold two months). And guess how it ended.

Perturabo did the job. The palace was finished. Breached, invaded, in flames, with fights everywhere and the Chaos forces about to break the inner sanctum.

What went wrong ? 2 legions on their way and Horus lowering the shields of the Vengeful Spirit.
 

 

 

As for the whole planet used as defenders... you have realize that it
was Terra, not a Cadia type planet. It's basically a administration
planet.

It was the Heresy, and the loyalists knew Horus was coming. They must have fortified the whole planet, or at least key places. If they only massed all their forces in the imperial palace, well, they are tactically weak for gods of war...

[[TA]Typher]

 

Perturabo and the Chaos forces would've taken the palace. That is why the Emperor took the opportunity Horus gave him. Breaching the walls in only 55 days is something incredible. The siege itself is loosely based on the Fall of Constantinople (but the byzantines were even proportionally less numerous than the imperial defenders, yet, they managed to hold two months). And guess how it ended.

Perturabo did the job. The palace was finished. Breached, invaded, in flames, with fights everywhere and the Chaos forces about to break the inner sanctum.

What went wrong ? 2 legions on their way and Horus lowering the shields of the Vengeful Spirit.

 

 

 

 

As for the whole planet used as defenders... you have realize that it

was Terra, not a Cadia type planet. It's basically a administration

planet.

It was the Heresy, and the loyalists knew Horus was coming. They must have fortified the whole planet, or at least key places. If they only massed all their forces in the imperial palace, well, they are tactically weak for gods of war...

 

Again.. I'd have to disagree with you.

 

Horus dropped his shields to bait the Emperor BECAUSE the palace had not fallen AND because other loyalist Legions would be arriving to help turn the tide.

 

Horus knew that he didn't have time for Pert to slowly wear the defenders down through sheer force of numbers before the Wolves and Angels would arrive.

 

If the Palace had fallen.. there was no need to bait the Emperor. I have no doubt that the traitor forces where winning, but it was slow and very costly. Of course over time they would have won. I imagine that several of the traitor legions would be spent to the point of almost broken. I can't image the World Eaters or the Death Guard troop numbers very high after taking the Palace. But Fortunately that never happened. All things being equal, Dorn more then pulled his weigh and gave Pert something to brood about for the 10 millenia he has been forced to stay in the eye of terror. The more I think about it, and the more I remember Pert from Angel's exterminatus, I'd have to say that I don't think he would have done as good as a job. Not because he isn't a amazing builder, because he is, but because he lacks the fatally stubborn streak that Dorn has.

 

 

so the question is..

 

If you are the Emperor, stuck in the webway/Terran vault holding back the forces of Chaos that one of your son's accidentally opened, which son would you want defending you?

 

Pert - Great siege warfare specialist, free thinker, with questionable loyalty traits

 

or

 

Dorn - Great siege warfare specialist, Stubborn to a fault, with undying loyality.

 

 

I think that answer is pretty simple.

 

 

Of course if the question is who could design a better mouse trap, in which the universe doesn't hang in the balance.. then your answer is harder.

[Vesper]

Again.. I'd have to disagree with you.

No problem !

Horus dropped his shields to bait the Emperor BECAUSE the palace had not

fallen AND because other loyalist Legions would be arriving to help

turn the tide.

Then why did the emperor teleported to the Vengeful spirit, letting Malcador die on the throne with the threat of daemons pouring out of it ? Because it was his last chance, the last shot he had. When I read you, I have the feeling he just had to wait behind his tip top shape walls.

Of course over time they would have won. I imagine that several of the

traitor legions would be spent to the point of almost broken. I can't

image the World Eaters or the Death Guard troop numbers very high after

taking the Palace.

That is absolutly right. And that is why Horus lowered the shields :). Because he knew his armies would probably fall in front of imperial reinforcements... And he wanted not only to win, but to rule supreme. Bleeding the legions under his orders, taking the risk to let the emperor live until eventual imperial reiforcements (because the Word Bearers and the Night Lords and Alpha Legion are freaking failures who made a pretty poor job). Horus wasn't very fond of those ideas. He was confident he could end it all by himself. He was wrong.

By taking down the emperor he would've proved himself the new emperor. The loyalists would've surrendered to the might of Horus, or fought to their annihilation, and he needed that to ultimately triumph. Because the Great Scouring would've happened too if Horus won. It just would've been the other way around.

[[TA]Typher]

 

 

 

Again.. I'd have to disagree with you.

No problem !

Horus dropped his shields to bait the Emperor BECAUSE the palace had not

fallen AND because other loyalist Legions would be arriving to help

turn the tide.

Then why did the emperor teleported to the Vengeful spirit, letting Malcador die on the throne with the threat of daemons pouring out of it ? Because it was his last chance, the last shot he had. When I read you, I have the feeling he just had to wait behind his tip top shape walls.

Of course over time they would have won. I imagine that several of the

traitor legions would be spent to the point of almost broken. I can't

image the World Eaters or the Death Guard troop numbers very high after

taking the Palace.

That is absolutly right. And that is why Horus lowered the shields :). Because he knew his armies would probably fall in front of imperial reinforcements... And he wanted not only to win, but to rule supreme. Bleeding the legions under his orders, taking the risk to let the emperor live until eventual imperial reiforcements (because the Word Bearers and the Night Lords and Alpha Legion are freaking failures who made a pretty poor job). Horus wasn't very fond of those ideas. He was confident he could end it all by himself. He was wrong.

By taking down the emperor he would've proved himself the new emperor. The loyalists would've surrendered to the might of Horus, or fought to their annihilation, and he needed that to ultimately triumph. Because the Great Scouring would've happened too if Horus won. It just would've been the other way around.

 

Chaos blocked the fact that the Loyalist Legions were arriving soon from the Emperor.. I forget where I read it, but they had allocated vast sums of power to limit his warp sight from this fact. That is why he chose to fight Horus in the pitched battle on the Vengeful Spirit. If he would have know.. all he had to do was wait.

[Vesper]

I don't remember any of that. Could be true though (don't have my IA around), so can't say. But anyhow, the loyalists surely knew someone was coming to their help sooner or later.

Then, we don't know how long it would've taken for loyalists to arrive. Horus found it was dangerous for him, all the other primarchs were more like "There is plenty of time to end the siege and gut the emperor, god darn it, come back Sons of Horus or we'll hunt down every single one of you until you go extinct !"

If they were right, all Horus had to do is calm down, take a deep breath and play Xbox until the few remaining loyalists were wiped out.

So, still hard to say.

[[TA]Typher]

"Now the final siege began. Through great breaches in the outer walls more and more armaments and reinforcements were brought to bear. The Warmaster himself prepared to teleport down to the surface and supervise the destruction of his former lord. Then a daemon from the Warp whispered to him the words that he had dreaded. A loyalist fleet under Leman Russ and Lion El'Johnson bearing a fresh army of Space Wolves and Dark Angels was only hours away. It would take days to break Humanity's last citadel, even with Horus leading his troops. It seemed that time had run out for the Warmaster, that his gamble had failed.

 

Horus was first among the fallen, with the power of a god and the cunning of a daemon. He resolved to try one final desperate gambit. He could still kill the Emperor. He ordered all comm-net communications blocked so that the defenders would get no word from their rescuers and then he used his psychic powers to the full to prevent the Emperor becoming aware of this. Finally he dropped the shields of his command ship. It was an invitation and a personal challenge that he knew the Emperor could not resist. He was being offered a chance finally to smite the foe who had harried him for so long. "

 

 

William King The Siege of Terra.

 

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/514769/battle-for-holy-terra-short-story

 

Dorn saved the Palace and The Emperor until other Loyalist arrived. Horus knew he had lost. It was only his last minute Gambit that gave him any marginal victory at all.

 

The fact is the Dorn did his job. He foiled Pert and held the Palace.

 

You can argue all the "what ifs" you want, but at the end of the day Dorn won.

[Vesper]

 

William King The Siege of Terra.

Wasn't even aware of the existence of that.

 

 

 

Horus knew he had lost. It was only his last minute Gambit that gave him any marginal victory at all.

If the source you're citing are the actual canon, then indeed. But it goes against the logic of the legions hating on the Sons of Horus for fleeing Terra when victory was at hand.

So it doesn't really make sense.

EDIT : And TWO HOURS ? That's a bit ridiculous. It means that it took less than two hours for :

-Horus to lower his shields

-The emperor to rally his sons, gather a few terminators

-Teleport to the Vengeful Spirit

-Loyalists to make their way through the Chaos ship

-Fight Horus vs Sanguinius

-Fight Emperor vs Horus

-ALL the traitor legions have the time to put all their troops in their ships and leave the system.

Yeah. Maybe that daemon was the Changeling and the Chaos Gods were lying a little bit to Horus.

 

 

The fact is the Dorn did his job. He foiled Pert and held the Palace.

That's more complex. Dorn did little during the siege, in fact. Sanguinius and the BA are the men of the siege when Dorn was flying his thingy-fortress. Perturabo cracked the palace open. His mission was accomplished. If we consider that Dorn's goal was to prevent this to happen, then he failed at the hands of Perturabo. Or we could say that his goal was to prevent the death of the Emperor. Wasn't really a success too.

If you ask me, it's one of those murky battles where everyone won and lost at the same time. Pretty much like Calth.

[[TA]Typher]

 

If the source you're citing are the actual canon, then indeed. But it goes against the logic of the legions hating on the Sons of Horus for fleeing Terra when victory was at hand.

So it doesn't really make sense.

 

 

William Kiing has been a writer for GW for decades.. this story has been Canon for years and years.. Of course it's old canon and who knows what BL will do when they get to this spot now. re-reading even now gives you all the inspiration to imagine this epic battle. I read it as a boy and it really drove my love for the game.

 

I'm sure not all the other Legions understood what happened at the end. If you are a Death Guard Captain you probably didn't know that the Emperor just vaporized Horus, seeing how that was a communication black out and it happened on a different ship. On the other hand the Son's of Horus would know. With loyalist legions heartbeats away and your Primarch dead.. I might flee too without so much as a "goodbye", let alone a lengthy explanation of the complex events that just happened.

 

That's more complex. Dorn did little during the siege, in fact. Sanguinius and the BA are the men of the siege when Dorn was flying his thingy-fortress. Perturabo cracked the palace open. His mission was accomplished. If we consider that Dorn's goal was to prevent this to happen, then he failed at the hands of Perturabo. Or we could say that his goal was to prevent the death of the Emperor. Wasn't really a success too.

If you ask me, it's one of those murky battles where everyone won and lost at the same time. Pretty much like Calth.

Pert cracked it, but didn't finish the job. He needed more time (and bodies). Like I said, I'd image the remaining Loyalist Primarchs selling themselves quite high if that last battle would have taken place at the Palace. I'd think that some of the traitor assault Legions would be devastated at the end.

 

As for holding the Palace.. I don't think any of the Primarchs could hold it indefinitely, even Pert. I highly doubt that Dorn's goal was to hold it forever. A more realistic goal would have been to hold until other loyalists could be mustered, which is exactly what he did. Dorn's physical role in the siege really isn't talked about. I'd image that while Sang was stomping faces he was in a logistical beehive somewhere moving countless forces to and fro in a manor that would make our heads explode if we attempted it. Without him Pert's job would have been easy. Sang and the Khan where both extremely valuable, like the fingers on your hand, Dorn however used all of them together, like a fist. A fist that kept the worse of Horus's forces from his throat.

 

Image if you will that the Emperor knew that the Dark Angels and the Wolves were almost there to help. Now we have two pristine Legions vs 5 spend, weary traitor legions, who are all committed on the ground. There would be no need to confront Horus (unless the Big E just wanted to try to talk to him). From here I'd say that the Story has a good chance of ending like it did except for the fact that both the Emperor AND Horus still live. the Big E on Terra and Horus in the Eye.

 

However, it ended with Horus dead and the Emperor mortally wounded. Without a strong, charismatic leader the Traitors fell apart and ran for the eye, which no sane person would do. I imagine keeping all these superhuman divas in line would be like herding cats. The Loyalist, battered and bruised won the day.

 

This was the Super Bowl of battles (or the World Cup for you euro peoples), and Dorn won. Not by a lot mind you, but by enough.

[[TA]Typher]

 

EDIT : And TWO HOURS ? That's a bit ridiculous. It means that it took less than two hours for :

-Horus to lower his shields

-The emperor to rally his sons, gather a few terminators

-Teleport to the Vengeful Spirit

-Loyalists to make their way through the Chaos ship

-Fight Horus vs Sanguinius

-Fight Emperor vs Horus

-ALL the traitor legions have the time to put all their troops in their ships and leave the system.

Yeah. Maybe that daemon was the Changeling and the Chaos Gods were lying a little bit to Horus.

 

LOL you don't have to like it.

 

I thought the way they made Ferris look in the Novel "Fulgrim" was horrible. He was slow, borish and just a step below Astartes intelligence. Likewise Corax came off as dull and lackluster with only moments of brilliance in "deliverance Lost". I read both with a frown on my face the whole time. That is how it goes. At some point you have to accept it or move on.

 

I'd imagine there would have been time once the two loyalist Legions arrived in the system. They don't just appear directly at Terra. there would have been confusion in the Traitor ranks. Smart, cool headed Primarchs like Pert would have seen it for what it was (A loss) and packed up his troops, while Primarchs like Angron would have wasted more of his men fighting until he had no choice but to leave.

 

There would have been a hellacious battle as the Loyalist tore into the piecemeal traitors.

 

It's pretty easy to see how it would have gone.

[Vesper]

 

William Kiing has been a writer for GW for decades.. this story has been

Canon for years and years.. Of course it's old canon and who knows what

BL will do when they get to this spot now. re-reading even now gives

you all the inspiration to imagine this epic battle. I read it as a boy

and it really drove my love for the game.

Not denying that at all. I just wasn't aware of it.

 

 

I'm sure not all the other Legions understood what happened at the end.

If you are a Death Guard Captain you probably didn't know that the

Emperor just vaporized Horus, seeing how that was a communication black

out and it happened on a different ship. On the other hand the Son's of

Horus would know. With loyalist legions heartbeats away and your

Primarch dead.. I might flee too without so much as a "goodbye", let

alone a lengthy explanation of the complex events that just happened.

I'm pretty sure when communications are as sophisticated as in 31k, everybody knew it.

 

 

 

Pert cracked it, but didn't finish the job. He needed more time (and

bodies). Like I said, I'd image the remaining Loyalist Primarchs selling

themselves quite high if that last battle would have taken place at the

Palace. I'd think that some of the traitor assault Legions would be

devastated at the end.

The job of "taking" the palace was shared by all the traitors legions. Perturabo was just tasked with the breaching part of the siege.

 

 

As for holding the Palace.. I don't think any of the Primarchs could

hold it indefinitely, even Pert. I highly doubt that Dorn's goal was to

hold it forever. A more realistic goal would have been to hold until

other loyalists could be mustered, which is exactly what he did. Dorn's

physical role in the siege really isn't talked about. I'd image that

while Sang was stomping faces he was in a logistical beehive somewhere

moving countless forces to and fro in a manor that would make our heads

explode if we attempted it. Without him Pert's job would have been easy.

Sang and the Khan where both extremely valuable, like the fingers on

your hand, Dorn however used all of them together, like a fist. A fist

that kept the worse of Horus's forces from his throat.

Dorn isn't supposed to have spent quite a lot of time in its flying fortress ?

But yeah, nothing is really said on him, as far as I know. Maybe we'll get some new stuff about his actual role. Until then...

 

 

Image if you will that the Emperor knew that the Dark Angels and the

Wolves were almost there to help. Now we have two pristine Legions vs 5

spend, weary traitor legions, who are all committed on the ground. There

would be no need to confront Horus (unless the Big E just wanted to try

to talk to him). From here I'd say that the Story has a good chance of

ending like it did except for the fact that both the Emperor AND Horus

still live. the Big E on Terra and Horus in the Eye.

 

With the horrific losses the BA, IF and WS must have taken, I'd be super concerned if I was the Emperor. But if the "two hours" stuff was known from the emperor, he would've stayed in the palace... and died because two hours feels ridiculous, as I said in a previous edit.

 

 

 

The Loyalist, battered and bruised won the day.

They lost what they were trying to protect. Hence why it's a pyrrhic victory. And the loyalists weren't only battered and bruised, but they also went bat:cuss insane, with the BA turning into maniacs and Dorn going all emo.

[[TA]Typher]

Lol

 

Like I said you don't have to like it. But it just is.

 

If Pert would have shaved a couple of days off his breaching of the Palace Horus (Chaos) would be the new Emperor. The fact is that Dorn held it until help arrived.

 

Even with the emperor encased in the Golden Throne the Loyalist still win. Chaos's champion was dead and no one could take his place. The Imperium still rolled forward. Sure it's dark and Bleak, but it seems it was always that way, even in the 30k millinium.

 

There is a part in one of the new HH books, I forget which, that Dorn is walking around the Palace personally directing defenses to be build. In it Sigmund states how weary his Primarch looks from the amount of effort he is using. I'd give alot of that credit to Sang, The Khan, the Lion and Russ all did their part, but it was Dorn that gave them all time to do so.

 

 

Edit: Am I the only one that gets my paragraphs erased by this forum?

[Vesper]

Lol

Like I said you don't have to like it. But it just is.

It just feels so weird, y'know. Two hours, put in perspective, is so funny. But hey, maybe it was really a lie from the Chaos Gods and not a scale issue from the author !

If Pert would have shaved a couple of days off his breaching of the

Palace Horus (Chaos) would be the new Emperor. The fact is that Dorn

held it until help arrived.

Breaching the imperial palace in days is ridiculously fast. Something that huge and strong would've taken years to take (it's not uncommon for sieges to last for years). But not for Perturabo.

The imperials managed to stay alive, but they should thank the WB, NL and AL who failed to delay the imperial reinforcements, because that is what turned the tide on Terra, not the skills of Dorn or Sanguinus.

Edit: Am I the only one that gets my paragraphs erased by this forum?

Post update, the posting and quoting mechanics aren't in good shape.

[[TA]Typher]

Lol

Like I said you don't have to like it. But it just is.

It just feels so weird, y'know. Two hours, put in perspective, is so funny. But hey, maybe it was really a lie from the Chaos Gods and not a scale issue from the author !

If Pert would have shaved a couple of days off his breaching of the

Palace Horus (Chaos) would be the new Emperor. The fact is that Dorn

held it until help arrived.

Breaching the imperial palace in days is ridiculously fast. Something that huge and strong would've taken years to take (it's not uncommon for sieges to last for years). But not for Perturabo.

The imperials managed to stay alive, but they should thank the WB, NL and AL who failed to delay the imperial reinforcements, because that is what turned the tide on Terra, not the skills of Dorn or Sanguinus.

Edit: Am I the only one that gets my paragraphs erased by this forum?

Post update, the posting and quoting mechanics aren't in good shape.

Anyway it was a good debate.

If you have time you should read that William King Story. It's great. I believe it first showed up in a White Dwarf, but I don't remember.

I'll give you this though. While it wasn't a victory for the Traitor Legions it was a semi-victoy for Chaos. Without the Emperor to finish the webway portal, humanity is still bound to using the warp. Also without his guiding hand to manage the psyker population more efficiently then the black ships do, I feel that the Chaos powers would be thankful that there ability to interact with humanity wasn't diminished. With the Emperor alive I feel that Chaos would have been severely reduced.