Veteran Loadouts

[SickSix]

I am building a small DA (sucessor) army. I am fielding Greenwing and am having trouble figuring out a loadout for my 10 man Vet squad.

 

I am tempted to make them CC oriented since they have 2 base attacks and can pack in the power weapons. 40 attacks on the charge is nothing to laugh at, especially if buffed by a Chaplain, IC or Libby.

 

However the general theme of my army is shooty. Straight dakka. But I really am conflicted about how to outfit these guys with guns. Combi weapon spam? Meltas and Flamers? Break them into two squads so I can get two Flak missles?

 

Any Help would be appreciated.

 

Oh and my army is basically

 

HQ

Interrogator Chaplain

 

Elites

Veterans

 

Troops

Tactical squad x3

 

Heavy

Vindicator x2

Ares

[Interrogator Stobz]

A couple of Power Swords and a melta bomb or two and keep them cheap, run them with your Interrogator for the CC buff. That should deal with most things without overkill and being shot up in the enemy turn. Maybe a special (melta for can opening and still assaults) if you have points left over you could run flakk, but you are better off putting that with the cbt sqd'd tacticals.

 

2c

Stobz

 

Get painting your Chappie ;)

[IndigoJack]

2 flamers, and as many combi-flamers as you have vets. Stick them in a drop pod and torch whatever unfortunate soul is on the other end. Given how prevalent full infantry lists are these days, this could be a really nasty unit.

[Interrogator Stobz]

That'd be my second squad of Vets^^^ fo sho :D but given combis are 10pts each you are giving up a lot of points for a one hit wonder (maybe two hits ;) ).

 

And if you go CC don't forget the hidden fist for Justin.

[Spaced Hulk]

Depends how you want to deploy them really. If they're on foot, I think I'd give them some decent ranged weapons (heavy weapon, 2x plasma, maybe combi-plasmas/storm bolters) and then just a couple of close combat upgrades (power swords and/or axes probably). This is because although they'll be acting as an assault/counter assault element, I'd still want them to be useful in the shooting phase as well.

 

If you're going to mobilise them in some way I'd forgo the heavy weapon and include more close combat upgrades instead. However, unless you're going to put them in a Land Raider, I'd still include some ranged ability (possibly more close ranged like flamers/meltaguns), as deploying them by drop pod or rhino will mean that when they disembark they can shoot but not assault.

 

Whichever route you take, one option to consider is storm shields. They're extremely cheap for Company Vets and just taking a couple will give you a way of soaking high strength/low AP hits & shots and make you less dependant on cover. I've just modelled a couple of vets armed with boltguns & storm shields for this very purpose.

 

The most difficult aspect of arming the squad will probably be keeping their points cost down to a reasonable level. Company Vets have so many options that it's very easy to go overboard. Once you reach a certain points value for them you invariably have to ask, would I be better with Deathwing or Black Knights instead?

[L30n1d4s]

If you are willing to pay the points, you can replace your I-C with Azrael. While you lose Hatred, you get a better combat character (2+/4++, save,+1A, +1WS, S6 AP3 Sword, FNP (6+) over an Interrogator-Chaplain). You also get army-wide buffs, making all your Greenwing squads Ld 10 as long as Azrael is alive, and also being able to take a squad or Ravenwing and/or Deathwing as Troops to supplement your Greenwing core.

 

With regard to the Vets themselves, if you put Azrael with them, they gain:

-Fearless

-PE: CSM

-4++ Invul Save

-Your choice of WL trait....Azrael can make them Run better, have FNP when within 3" of an Objective, or have Furious Charge.

 

Say you have Furious Charge and give 5 of your 10 Vets Power Spears... that means on the charge, you get 20 S5 regular attacks (from your unupgraded Vets), 6 S7 AP3 attacks (from Azrael), and 20 S6 AP3 attacks (from you Power Spear Vets). Additionally, the entire unit has a 3+/4++ save, making them like "Hammernators Lite" for much less cost (255 points for ten Vets like this versus 490 points for 10 Hammernators).

[Spaced Hulk]

If you are willing to pay the points, you can replace your I-C with Azrael. While you lose Hatred, you get a better combat character (2+/4++, save,+1A, +1WS, S6 AP3 Sword, FNP (6+) over an Interrogator-Chaplain). You also get army-wide buffs, making all your Greenwing squads Ld 10 as long as Azrael is alive, and also being able to take a squad or Ravenwing and/or Deathwing as Troops to supplement your Greenwing core.

 

With regard to the Vets themselves, if you put Azrael with them, they gain:

-Fearless

-PE: CSM

-4++ Invul Save

-Your choice of WL trait....Azrael can make them Run better, have FNP when within 3" of an Objective, or have Furious Charge.

 

Say you have Furious Charge and give 5 of your 10 Vets Power Spears... that means on the charge, you get 20 S5 regular attacks (from your unupgraded Vets), 6 S7 AP3 attacks (from Azrael), and 20 S6 AP3 attacks (from you Power Spear Vets). Additionally, the entire unit has a 3+/4++ save, making them like "Hammernators Lite" for much less cost (255 points for ten Vets like this versus 490 points for 10 Hammernators).

While the damage ouput for this unit is very impressive, it's also very dependant on getting the charge. Which, realistically, means giving them a Land Raider as a way of both getting to the enemy and assaulting first when they get there. Azrael + 10 Vets (5 with lances) + Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer = minimum of 715 pts (and a lot of eggs in one basket). Like I said above, when you're spending that many points, would you be better taking 2 or 3 Deathwing squads instead?

 

I'm not saying it's automatically a bad choice, as the reduced costs in the codex allow you to use this sort of Deathstar and still field plenty of other units as well. But it's certainly better suited to higher point games.

[L30n1d4s]

@Spaced Hulk -- Good points you make. Yes, an expensive Land Raider is the only reliable way to ensure and assault, thereby tying up a lot of points in this unit. However, I think there are some other options to employ this unit of Azrael + PW Vets effectively:

 

1 - Drop Pod -- Use 9 Vets and Azrael to drop in Turn 1 on an enemy flank. Azrael can use his Combi-Plasma and the Vets can shoot with any weapons they have. If you do it right, then you can limit how much firepower and/or enemy assaulting they receive (plus they have Azrael's 2+ armor and the entire unit's 4++ Invul to help keep them healthy). On turn 2, you then assault the target enemy unit with the effects described above. If the enemy anticipated this and pulled his forces back, then you can potentially use that move to force him entire the fire lanes/assault corridors that benefit the rest of your army. For this tactic, I would argue Azrael, 4 Vets with PWs, and 5 Vets with Combi-Plasmas in a Drop Pod would be a good task organization.

 

2 - Defensive Counter-assault Unit -- Place Azrael and the Squad near your main defensive line, either out of LOS or in cover, and when the enemy moves to assault your main defense, footslog them out and charge them (or counter-charge them, if the enemy has already assaulted one of your units). This force can be cheap and cheerful, something along the lines of Azrael, 4-6 Vets with Power Weapons. Obviously, placement in terrain/out of LOS is key, as is their ability to have a good "charge arc" to actually reach the units that are threatening your defensive position.

 

3 - Allied SM Librarian -- Kind of an unusual one here, but if you take a C:SM Libby with Gates of Infinity and attache him to the Squad, then you can "bounce" the entire force 24" wherever you want each turn, subject to scattering of course (unless you use Locator Beacons to make them not scatter). The Librarian can take several useful secondary powers in this configuration: Avenger gives you some great AP3 Template shooting; Vortex of Doom is a little risky, but can truly bring the hurt to any infantry/vehicle target; Null Zone is great, not just for your Vets, but for the entire army, since a 24" bubble of re-rolled enemy Invul saves is very potent. An example Task Organization for this tactic would be Azrael + 10 Vets with 5 Power Weapons and 2 Plasma Guns, 3 Plasma Pistols + SM Librarian with Gates/Null Zone... Unit "bounces" out, Rapid Fires Plasmas and Libby uses Null Zone to make the target have a hard time saving itself with Invuls, then either receives the weakened enemy unit charge or charges them next turn, mopping them up or, if none of these are viable, "bounces" again to threaten another part of the enemy army. During all of this, they are Fearless, have a 4++, and are both a shooting and close combat threat.

 

Anyway, you make good points, just wanted to demonstrate that their are some other, "cheaper" options out there.

[SickSix]

Thank you all for the prompt and well thought out replies!

 

Personally I think I am leaning towards Spaced Hulk's first suggestions. A couple of storm shields up front, 2 special guns (plasma/melta), and a couple power weapons.

 

The way my Army list is now I have 300 pts to play with. So I can bling them up fairly well. A drop pod is not a bad idea either. With the new disembarkation rules they can get an assault turn 2.

 

So this is what I'm thinking

Storm Shields x3

Meltas x2

Storm Bolters x2

Power Swords x2

Power Mauls x2

 

Run a 'shield wall' up front until they get in range and then let the face smashing begin!

 

(BTW this is not a competitive list. I have to start learning to win casuals games first LOL)

[Brother Immolator]

Do you wish to keep them as vets or are you willing to relegate them to a 5 man command?

[SickSix]

Do you wish to keep them as vets or are you willing to relegate them to a 5 man command?

 

Well considering I just realized I undercosted the Ares by 50pts I may do that....

 

Now with the Ares at 300pts I can only afford

3x storm shields

2x power weapons (swords)

2x Melta guns

[Brother Immolator]

If you are willing to do that I would buy them instead as a command squad and equip them with bolters and the standard of devastation. The rest you probably know You already have three tac squads and thats a ton of fire. Give them an apothecary and a couple storm shields with the extra points.

[IndigoJack]

One of the best things to do with vets is to give them a singular purpose (anti-infantry, tank hunters, CC beat stick, tar pit unit, etc.) and equip them for that. Specifically, use them to shore up whatever your list is weak against.

[SickSix]

Well I have taken Brother Immolator's advice.

 

Command Squad:

Apothecary

Champion

Standard of Devastation

Boltguns x4

Combi-Plas x1

Storm Shields x3

Melta bombs x2

[L30n1d4s]

If you give up 1 Storm Shield (leaving with you with 2 still) and the Champion (in my opinion, not really worth the points), then you get 30 points back. With that, you can then get 3 more Combi-Plasmas (i.e. so everyone but the Apothecary has one, since he can't get it).

 

You can also swap the Interrogator-Chaplain for a Librarian with Divination, Plasma Pistol, and a Power Field Generator.

 

So, then, you can use Prescience to twin-link your shooting, and unload with 9 BS4, Twin-linked Plasma shots when required. All other turns, the squad can shoot with 20 BS4, Twin-Linked Bolter shots per turn, using the Libby's powers. Their Banner gives all the nearby Tacticals salvo shooting, as per your plan, and the Librarian's Power Field Generator makes any nearby units/vehicles have a 4++.

[SickSix]

If you give up 1 Storm Shield (leaving with you with 2 still) and the Champion (in my opinion, not really worth the points), then you get 30 points back. With that, you can then get 3 more Combi-Plasmas (i.e. so everyone but the Apothecary has one, since he can't get it).

 

You can also swap the Interrogator-Chaplain for a Librarian with Divination, Plasma Pistol, and a Power Field Generator.

 

So, then, you can use Prescience to twin-link your shooting, and unload with 9 BS4, Twin-linked Plasma shots when required. All other turns, the squad can shoot with 20 BS4, Twin-Linked Bolter shots per turn, using the Libby's powers. Their Banner gives all the nearby Tacticals salvo shooting, as per your plan, and the Librarian's Power Field Generator makes any nearby units/vehicles have a 4++.

 

Thank you good Sir! The Chaplain really doesn't fit with the ranged theme of the army. I think your suggestions would vastly improve the force. Thank you!

[captain Angel]

I think that the champion is well worth it. It grants you a character to accept challenges. This will allow your i-c or azz to chop up the rest of the squad and leave your apothecary safe. For five points it is worth it.

[Brother Immolator]

I think that the champion is well worth it. It grants you a character to accept challenges. This will allow your i-c or azz to chop up the rest of the squad and leave your apothecary safe. For five points it is worth it.

Fifteen points captain. :)

[captain Angel]

Thank you 15 point

I still think it is worth it however.

[Brother Immolator]

Thank you 15 point

I still think it is worth it however.

 

Well there was a thread somewhere and the debate was quite heated, I am loath to continue it honestly.

To each his own though :D

[Spaced Hulk]

Well I have taken Brother Immolator's advice.

Command Squad:

Apothecary

Champion

Standard of Devastation

Boltguns x4

Combi-Plas x1

Storm Shields x3

Melta bombs x2

Unfortunately, neither the Champion or the Apothecary can be given any additional weapons - including bolters. The Apothecary is armed with a chainsword & narthecium, the Champion with a combat shield, bolt pistol & Blade of Caliban. As the rules are currently written, no upgrades are available to either of them.

Like L30n1d4s suggested, I'd drop the Champion and one of the storm shields. Personally, I'd be tempted to drop the melta bombs & possibly the apothecary as well, or at least test the squad with and without him, to see just how much you actually need the 5+ FnP.

For the same points as the unit above, the Command Squad I'd use would look like this:

Veteran with Standard of Devastation, storm bolter & bolter-plasma combi-weapon.

2 Veteran's with storm bolter, bolter-plasma combi-weapon & storm shield.

2 Veterans with storm bolter & bolter-plasma combi-weapon.

Every model effectively has a bolter, a storm bolter and a single use plasma gun. The reason for the plasma is pretty obvious, it gives you a volley of high strength, low AP shots you can use against heavy infantry, vehicles and even flyers (if you include a Divination Librarian anyway). The bolter part of the combi-weapons are equally useful, with the Standard of Devastation you want to maximise the number of boltguns that can benefit from the Salvo effect.

However, the Salvo effect is also the reason why I'd include the storm bolters. Basically, any bolter within range of the Standard becomes a Heavy 4 weapon, which is an amazing boost to the army's basic firepower. But, and it's a big but, it also seriously reduces the mobility of those weapons. Without the banner, bolters can move and fire up to 24", which was (in my opinion) one of the best changes in 6th Edition. With the banner, those bolters can only move and fire up to 12", which (again, in my opinion) is a serious handicap. Therefore the Standard of Devastation becomes a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand it allows you to set up a gunline from hell, on the other, it reduces both the mobilty and the effective range (normal, Standard-less bolters can move 6" and fire upto 24", bolters within the Standard's bubble have to remain stationary to fire that far).

Therefore, this is the tactic I'd suggest to maximise both the usefulness of the Standard and the inherent mobility of Tac squads in 6th Edition. First, if you want to advance the Tac squads, keep the Command Squad slightly more than 6" away from them. With pre-measuring in 6th Edition this is quite feasible. 6" is the range of the Salvo effect of the banner, so keeping this distance allows the Tactical marines to move and still fire upto 24". With the storm bolters, the Command Squad can still contribute to your firepower (they're the only models in the army which can't avoid the Salvo effect). Next turn, when you're (hopefully) already in range, the Tac squads remain stationary and the Command Squad moves within 6", allowing all those bolters to now fire as Heavy 4 (again, the storm bolters allow the Command Squad to contribute firepower even though they've moved).

So for the 15 pts the storm bolters cost, you're allowing the Command Squad to be much more mobile. Of course, you could do the same by using their combi-plasmas instead, or even by giving them plasma guns. However, with combi-plasma you're almost always going to want to save them for a 12" rapid fire volley, and if you arm them with plasma guns, you'll probably always fire them even though you've got Heavy 4 bolters available.

Hope my rambling has made sense

[Brother Immolator]

If the unit has the standard why would you handicap them with stormbolters? Plus you can increase the standards bubble  by mounting it in a transport of someshort.

[FerociousBeast]

If you give up 1 Storm Shield (leaving with you with 2 still) and the Champion (in my opinion, not really worth the points), then you get 30 points back. With that, you can then get 3 more Combi-Plasmas (i.e. so everyone but the Apothecary has one, since he can't get it).

 

OH NO YOU DIDN'T!

 

The champion protects the banner if nothing else. I'd skip him only if you were absolutely sure the squad wouldn't be anywhere near combat for most of the game.

[Spaced Hulk]

It's not handicapping them (they've still got bolters as well). All the storm bolters do is give you options as to which weapons you fire each turn.

I think you've missed my point a little. What I was trying to say (probably not very well ) is that sometimes, you'll want to keep your Tac squads out of the Salvo 'bubble', allowing them to move and fire as normal. Therefore, ideally you want the Command Squad to be mobile enough that you can move the 'bubble' as you need it. There are various ways you can do this. Transports are one, but then you've got a minimum of 165 pts probably doing nothing until you move the bubble forward again. The best way would probably be a Ravenwing Command Squad, but the three bike limit is a severe disadvantage.

The Command Squad the OP posted was an infantry version, so I tried to create a similar squad that could move and fire in a variety of ways.

[FerociousBeast]

More with the topic of the thread, the problem with Company Veterans is that they play like Elite Tacticals, but aren't scoring. Therefore, they need to be equipped as damage dealers, but there are better units for that purpose. As a Land Raider Surprise, they can be effective with a good HQ, but they get really pricey.

 

I really hate 40k's scoring unit nonsense, by the way. It's just an asinine way to force people to take subpar units. GW should have found a way to make them better, not forced them with an inelegant, illogical, no-bearing-on-reality concept like scoring units.