Chaos Lord Shallag Jaganath, The World-Breaker

[Vorenus]

Blood for the Blood God!

 

I have a few questions that I'd like to pose, but first I would like to share some background information about why these questions matter to me.  I hope you will indulge me a little.

 

I am working on building a new Chaos Space Marines army that  I have tentatively named "The Fell Brethren."  When I make armies I tend to do so thematically; i.e., I focus on the theme and flavor instead of focusing on a "competitive" army list.  So when I began this project I knew that the most important model in the whole army would be the leader of the army, the Chaos Lord.  I debated using one of the pre-made Special Characters in the Codex, and I toyed with the idea of trying to create a model and character based on Nemeroth (the villain from the Space Marine PS3 game) or one of the Chaos Lords from the various Black Library books I've read, but ultimately I wanted to create something more original.  And basically I just prefer making my own characters when I can.  (Brief tangent:  One of my pet peeves about GW is that many of their Special Characters have abilities that you can't get without taking their Special Character; I wish that GW would let you customize non-pregenerated characters more, buying special abilities that affect your army or your squad and whatnot.  I know, you can customize the wargear, but that's not the same.) 

 

Ultimately I decided to go with a Chaos Lord mounted on a Juggernaut of Khorne.  I really like the look of the Juggernaut models that I've seen, and I am looking forward to customizing one of my own.  I've seen a few others on B&C posts, but not exactly what I'm going for so hopefully I will still get to exercise some originality (I realize that as long as we're playing with rules and background material produced by a company, I'll never be completely original, but hopefully I can exercise a modicum of originality within the constraints of the game universe).

 

After scrutinizing the Codex and cogitating upon the problem for several days, here is what I came up with:

 

Chaos Lord Shallag Jaganath, The World-Breaker

WS 6  BS 5  S 4  T 5  W 4  I 5  A 4  Ld 10  Sv 2+/4++

Wargear, Chaos Rewards, and Chaos Artefact:  Terminator Armour, Chainfist, The Black Mace, Sigil of Corruption, Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, Gift of Mutation, Combat Familiar

Special Rules:  Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independent Character, Warlord Trait, Master of Traitors, Unit Type (Cavalry), Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter-attack

Total Cost:  260 points

 

(Note:  Most of the special rules were acquired through the various pieces of Wargear, Special Issue Wargear, and Chaos Rewards, the rest were included in the base rules for Chaos Lords.  The stat bonuses from the Juggernaut, Terminator Armour, and Sigil of Corruption are already included in the profile.)

 

I suspect the first thing that people say when they see the price tag is that I have spent too much:  Over 10 percent of my total army will be tied up in one model.  That's true.  But I am happy with it.  As I said, I felt I needed to create a fearsome, powerful Chaos Lord to be the nexus of the army, to be the strong center that keeps the rest of the depraved brutes in line--the only thing they respect is power and strength, after all.  I wanted a character who could challenge the Champions of Chaos or the Champions of the Corpse-Emperor and likely win.  I think I have succeeded.  This character is a beast in melee.  Lord Jaganath has the potential to get up to 15 attacks on the charge! (4 base, +2 for charge [with Rage], +1 for Hammer of Wrath [at Init. 10, unmodified ST and AP -], +2 for Combat Familiar [at S4 AP-], and +D6 from the Black Mace's Daemon Weapon property.)  If it wasn't for Abaddon's higher initiative, I would place even money on Lord Jaganath in a fight.  (And actually, mathhammer says that Jaganath should survive long enough to at least hit back, so I really think the fight could go either way.)  And he can take on Walkers and vehicles with equal ease by opting to use his Chainfist instead of the Black Mace (5-6 attacks with the Chainfist should shred most Walkers and vehicles out there).

 

My plan is to join Lord Jaganath to a squad of Chaos Space Marine Bikers, Raptors, or Warp Talons, as they are the only units that can keep up with his increased movement, and Unleash Havoc on my enemy.  (I'm still cogitating on what other horrors will flesh out the ranks of the Fell Brethren.  I'll post a full list when I am done, probably in a couple more weeks.)

 

Which brings me to my questions, which I'll break into two sections.  First I'll ask questions related to the modelling aspect of this character, then I'll ask questions based on the game mechanics (i.e., the "crunch") for this character.

 

Modelling Questions:

1.  Looking at what other people have done for their Chaos Lords mounted on Juggernauts, it appears that most people have used the Warhammer Fantasy Citadel Finecast model to start with.  I've never played Warhammer Fantasy.  Are the models the right size/dimensions to use for this?  What about the base, do I need to substitute a circular base for it to be legal in WH40K (it appears to come with a rectangular base in Fantasy)?

2.  For those who are using the Black Mace, what are you using to model it?  I was considering using the power maul for the Chosen Champion from the Dark Vengeance box set.  Does anyone see any problems with that, or have any other suggestions?

3.  For the chainfist, I was thinking I would actually use a large lightning claw instead, something like Abaddon's Talon of Horus or the lightning claw that Huron Blackheart has.  Or possibly even an Ork power klaw.  I like the aesthetic of the claw/klaw instead of an actual Chainfist better.  I know this would be okay for friendly games, but would it be allowed for tournament play?  (I'm relatively new to the hobby, having played for the past 2+ years, and I have only limited tournament experience so I am unsure about this.)

4.  For the Combat Familiar, I actually wasn't planning to add another model.  I was just going to count the Juggernaut as the Combat Familiar (I know, the Juggernaut looks like it should be hitting much harder than ST 4 AP-, but that's the best I can do with the rules).  Same question as # 3, would this be legal for tournament play?

 

Crunch Questions:

1.  Cavalry are not slowed by moving through difficult terrain (and the BRB specifically includes charging through difficult terrain).  Am I correct in inferring from that statement that he attacks at normal Initiative, not I1?

2.  Under 5th ed. rules, all Independent Characters had the Skilled Rider USR.  I don't see that listed in 6th ed.  Am I correct in my understanding, that ICs don't automatically get Skilled Rider anymore?  Is there any way in the CSM Codex to acquire that ability?  (I'm guessing no, but figured I'd ask anyway.)

3.  If I am reading the rules for the Black Mace correctly, it will neatly circumvent the Eternal Warrior rule.  Is that accurate?

4.  This last question may seem really out of left field since I have such a distinct conept for how I want this character to be, but there is one issue I've been struggling with, and that's whether to use the Black Mace or the Axe of Blind Fury.  I've gone back and forth a few times on this one.  I was wondering:  Have any of you used both the Black Mace and the Axe of Blind Fury, and, if so, have any of you developed a strong preference for one over the other?  If so, what led you to that preference?  Is the tradeoff between an AP 2 weapon and the -1 penalty to WS really worth it for the Axe of Blind Fury?

 

I'm going to keep this to 8 questions, as the number 8 has numerological significance for the pantheon whose sigil we bear into combat.

 

Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this and respond.  I look forward to reading your suggestions and ideas.

 

Skulls for the Skull Throne!

 

[Xin Ceithan]

Last Time I looked, Terminator Armor And the Juggernaught were Not allowed to go in One Build.It's in Codex /wargear small Print.Shame though, would Love to build and field One....

 

 

+edit:make sure to disengage Autocorrection+

[Vorenus]

Xin Ceithan:

 

My, what a stupid mistake.  How embarrassing.  Thank you for pointing out that error to me.  Once I read your post, I went back and re-read that page, and you were absolutely right, it was hidden down in a footnote in the fine print.  I know I said I was relatively new to the hobby, but I didn't mention that I am apparently functionally illiterate...

 

Putting aside my embarrassment, I still like this character idea, but obviously I have to remove the Terminator Armour--and that means no Chainfist.  That renders a few of the questions I had above moot, and requires that I rethink how I will handle Walkers and other vehicles.

 

So, after correcting my colossal blunder, here's what I have:

 

 

Chaos Lord Shallag Jaganath, The World-Breaker

WS 5  BS 4  S 4  T 5  W 4  I 5  A 4  Ld 10  Sv 3+/4++

Wargear, Chaos Rewards, and Chaos Artefact: Power Armour, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, The Axe of Blind Fury, Plasma Pistol, Melta Bombs, Sigil of Corruption, Mark of Khorne, Juggernaut of Khorne, Gift of Mutation, Combat Familiar

Special Rules: Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Independent Character, Warlord Trait, Master of Traitors, Unit Type (Cavalry), Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Counter-attack

Total Cost: 215 points

 

(Note: Most of the special rules were acquired through the various pieces of Wargear, Special Issue Wargear, and Chaos Rewards, the rest were included in the base rules for Chaos Lords. The stat bonuses from the Juggernaut, Terminator Armour, and Sigil of Corruption are already included in the profile.)

 

If he joins a unit with an Icon of Wrath, he will be attacking at S7 on the charge, good enough for all but AV 14--and for that he can use his melta-bombs.  He now will get up to 16 attacks on the charge (+1 for a pistol that he didn't have before), and will usually be wounding on a 2+, all at AP 2.  I think I can live with that.  Yes, I can definitely live with that--but my enemies shall not!

 

With this change, some of my previous questions are now moot, so I'll repost the questions I still have:

 

Modelling Questions:

1. Looking at what other people have done for their Chaos Lords mounted on Juggernauts, it appears that most people have used the Warhammer Fantasy Citadel Finecast model to start with. I've never played Warhammer Fantasy. Are the models the right size/dimensions to use for this? What about the base, do I need to substitute a circular base for it to be legal in WH40K (it appears to come with a rectangular base in Fantasy)?

2. For those who are using the Black Mace, what are you using to model it? I was considering using the power maul for the Chosen Champion from the Dark Vengeance box set. Does anyone see any problems with that, or have any other suggestions?  (I'm still curious about this one, even though I've switched to the Axe of Blind Fury.)

3. For the Combat Familiar, I actually wasn't planning to add another model. I was just going to count the Juggernaut as the Combat Familiar (I know, the Juggernaut looks like it should be hitting much harder than ST 4 AP-, but that's the best I can do with the rules). Same question as # 3, would this be legal for tournament play?

 

Crunch Questions:

1. Cavalry are not slowed by moving through difficult terrain (and the BRB specifically includes charging through difficult terrain). Am I correct in inferring from that statement that he attacks at normal Initiative, not I1?  (This is now moot as he comes with frag grenades--but I'd still like to know the answer for any time I have to fight cavalry lacking grenades.)

2. Under 5th ed. rules, all Independent Characters had the Skilled Rider USR. I don't see that listed in 6th ed. Am I correct in my understanding, that ICs don't automatically get Skilled Rider anymore? Is there any way in the CSM Codex to acquire that ability? (I'm guessing no, but figured I'd ask anyway.)

 

Thanks again for helping me fix this mistake, and thank you to everyone for reading this and sharing your thoughts with me.

[Xin Ceithan]

Glad to help. Have to spread the glory though. There was an older thread after the New Codex was released since many of us didn't that bloody footnote (Myself included...;). )

I am more of a modeller but I understand that in competive play "what-you-See-is-what-you-get" is the way to go. so for that, your Model should on the large round base and you should Model the familiar in some way (maybe small spawn Or a chaoshound on the Base? Or at least "weaponize" the juggernaught with more spikes, larger claws or chainblades for claws.

[Dr. Clock]

Okay... welcome to the Dark Side.

 

Just writing to wonder why you've bothered with all the extras on this guy? My juggerlord is mark, mount, sigil, axe. Done.

 

The familiar, gift, melta-bombs and plasma pistol are all pretty redundant on this guy. Melta bombs MAYBE, because they are cheap and give you an out against AV14 things.

 

But seriously: every time you buy fancy kit, think these words: "How many marines can I buy instead?"

 

Between the familiar, pistol and gift, you're leaving behind enough points for a) a Spawn of Khorne [+8 points], b) 2 Khorne Raptors, or c) 2 chaos bikers. All of these choices can comfortably keep up with the jugger, and allow him to hide from shooting in their unit. Raptors and Bikes can also take icons, giving you that sweeeeet stacking on charge bonuses. 

 

While I appreciate the desire to make him YOUR Khorne Lord, naming him and modelling him real awesome are sufficient, especially in this day-and-age of proxy Special Characterdom. 

 

For the price, the stock jugger-axe-sigil lord is bananas. Adding 40 points of largely useless kit won't make him individual, it'll just make him less of an awesome deal than he already is.

 

By all means, throw a familiar on there... make him as mutated as you want... I personally would have no problem with him having a non-functioning plasma pistol (he only uses it to shoot himself in the face when he fails in mastering the axe). 

 

Just my .02 - don't want to discourage you, just hoping you bring as many skulls to the field as you can so you can bring away twice as many.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Slayer le Boucher]

Mark, Axe, Jugger, Sigil and Gift of Mutation+ meltabombs are all he needs.

 

Gift of Mutation is really good, if you have the right Boon that is, but if you get +1 save, EW, +1T, reroll saves and best of all Multiple Boons, its 10pts really well spent.

 

Now if you really want to use the Combat Famillar, you can as you suggested count the Jugger, while in theory the Hammer of Wrath hit is a bit like when the Jugger is ramming in.

 

And seeing that the description of the option says that you don't have to have an actual model, no one can complain to you, even in competitif play.

 

Now to be on the save side, you can always use a Chaos Hound model, Or a DE Khymera, or even some bird of prey, made with a DE Razorwing flock, or a tiny Imp.

[Vorenus]

It's been a while since I've had time to log on, and I saw I had a couple of responses to my questions.  Thank you Xin Ceithan, Dr. Clock, and Slayer le Boucher for offering your feedback.  It is appreciated and I am thinking hard about how I want to build this character (both in terms of the modelling and the crunch aspects of the game).  (Side note and complete tangent:  I am also going to make this character using FFG's BLACK CRUSADE roleplaying game, just because I like the character concept I have in my head and I want another excuse to use the character and the model even if it is outside the traditional tabletop game.)

 

If I may shift the focus away from the leader of this war band, I have a question for anyone who has ever used Forgefiends in battle.  I love the model and I want to get a couple (or more) and use them, but they seem kind of pricey in terms of points for what you are getting, and I wanted to know what others thought.  I'm thinking of including two Forgefiends and a Defiler in this Chaos war band for my Heavy Support choices.  I've got some experience with Defilers in battle, but none with Forgefiends.  Does anyone out there have actual experience with Forgefiends, and would you be willing to share your thoughts on the matter?  Thank you.

[Brother Ambroz]

They're expensive for what you get but they'll make a mess out of anything below AV 14. Ecto fiends are very nice for killing anything with a 2+ save, probably get more bang for your buck with them.

[Vorenus]

Good to know--I really like the look of the model, and I am glad in this case I won't have to make the tough choice between using a cool looking model and a useful unit from the Codex.