Using Dualists

[Captain Idaho]

It's been a while since I've had the time and patience to write up an article or two, but circumstances have stabilised enough for to allow me to bring a few projects closer to fruition.

 

Now, regarding ICs I must say a Captain equivalent is a big benefitor of power weapon rules in 6th edition. The old average S4 we used to settle for just wasn't so good at consistency against the most dangerous of opponents against us Space Marines. Relic Blades picked up much of the slack of course, as we could get a high strength power weapon whilst boosting the survivability of models.

 

However we can all appreciate a Storm Shield/Relic blade model became far too frequent a sight in games in 5th edition, with myself being just as guilty of this!

 

The new power weapons rules have now made it so a Captain can maintain a good offensive ability, have an extra attack over Relic Blades and only lose a little survivability at worst (Articifer Armour is pretty good now thanks to the AP rules in assaults and Iron Halos are still available).

 

The new edition of rules has brought us something we seldom saw previously and that is a revived role of the Duelist. A Space Marine Captain/Master/Equivilent set up as a Duelist is not only fearsome in assaults but also has versatility, which makes him even more dangerous since he can avoid the horrific possibility of the paper-rock-scissors arrangement of assaults.

 

As such, I want to see how a solid cross section of the community views on the following:

 

1) Independent Characters and dual power weapons, including all the combinations we might see.

 

2) Other characters and dual power weapons (if you're so inclined - not my preference considering the points cost).

 

3) Dual Specialist Duelist variants of the above.

 

4) Creating the models - the most important factor for all of us!

 

I've been contemplating which power weapons to combine for the best all rounder dualist in competitive environments. Power axes seem a no-brainer because you need AP2 sometimes and the boost in strength threatens the tougher opponents out there. The second choice is much harder however.

 

Most people will consider only the power sword as the alternative as it has good AP and allows you to strike at initiative with your Duelist (often 5), but because of the majority of enemies your Duelist will be fighting will have toughness 4, this means it is actually a fairly weak option. 4 Attacks, 5 on the charge, will only net you two kills on average, and since it's average, it's not so hard to go below this. Sure, you could go above this, but it's just as likely as under!

 

Winning games with assaults requires consistency as best you can, or else there are too many things that can go wrong.

 

We should stick to a power axe then? Well no, because if you strike last then you open yourself up to a whole host of vulnerabilities and lose flexibility. What happens if you end up against a bunch of Khorne Berzerkers or Orks and need to thin their numbers before they unleash all their attacks on your unit? Striking at initiative can be very important, especially if you have a Duelist with initiative of 5.

 

So what's the answer here? Looking at the other power weapons we have the power maul as the obvious alternative. Against everything barring 3+ saves (2+ saves will see you using the power axe) then the maul will be the best option.

 

Berzerkers and other Marine assault forces will still cause a problem though since thinning their numbers will be difficult.

 

Another solution is to take a power lance, which grants us the chance to strike at initiative with a higher strength and AP3. This would be the best solution except if receiving a charge or fighting in protracted assaults, where we see a drop to AP4 and basic strength. If you can guarante a charge (as much as possible in 40K anyway) with a Landraider or just having a unit your opponent DOESN'T want to charge, then you can get away with a power lance as the second option.

 

Whilst on the subject, does anyone dispute the use of an axe as a weapon at all and taking like a maul and sword?

 

Just to complicate matters we have to also have to consider what units our Duelist is accompanying. If running with a bunch of Terminators armed with Thunder Hammers then you will often do well to thin opponents before they can strike with initiative against you. If you've gone Honour Guard, often you'll not be too fussed about ordinarily power armoured foes thanks to their massed attacks, so can afford to not take a power sword and go with the lance or maul safe in the knowledge you've got an axe spare if you need it next turn, whilst being able to carve through Orks and other such creatures easily.

 

It's still a bit up in the air with me, since I run Honour Guard and this of course influences my decision. I'm seriously thinking of going axe and maul for high strength attacks (6 on the charge!), which should do some damage against most opponents and know that 10 Berzerkers probably will struggle to kill more than 1 Honour Guard even with their mountain of attacks (I will be putting wounds on the Masters' 2+ save until he goes down to 1 wound under most circumstances), so I can afford to drop down initiative steps to a power axe.

[Giga]

IMHO, storm shield, artificer armor, and relic blade is still where it's at. We don't get eternal warrior, so 3++ is crucial if you're going to actually use your captain/master to his full potential ie. run around soloing entire squads, thus risking to be shot by high str weapons if you fail your charge or end up in the open during opponent's shooting phase, not to mention being forced into duels with pfist/thammer dudes. 

 

A slightly cheaper and more versatile option would be to run artificer, lightning claw, and power fist. They're both specialist weapons so they actually benefit from +1 attack. Pfist allows for reliable wounding of anything in the game and even vehicle hunting, and also makes your captain scary to other ICs because he can insta-kill most of them. Claw is nothing special, but it's good to have when you have to face down a power fist sergeant in a duel. 

 

As for standard power weapons on ICs, I think they're a bad idea because they either aren't versatile/damaging enough, or they waste I5.

[Captain Idaho]

I don't think that's a very good use of a SM Captain at all. Soloing any but the smallest squads will just get him either killed or held up. What's more, taking S8 on the nose with only a 3+ invulnerable save is asking for a loss you'll regret - particularly if it's your Warlord.

 

There is room for a Storm Shield character protecting a unit from AP2 but still, this will limit the offensive potential of your Captain (or equivalent - Captain to refer to a generic equivalent model).

 

What's more, do you really need your character to tank so many low AP attacks? Target saturation should be helping you here or you really have got a Deathstar! Put a few Drop Pod units in the opponent's face and remember your Land Raider and all of a sudden your opponent will have to split his concentration away from your Captain's unit. You still have a 4+ save to take a few Plasma shots on behalf of your squad.

 

Lightning Claws and Power Fists are powerful no doubt about it, for a modest amount more. I'd save the points myself but there really is a special place for a model to have both options. Biggest negative is making a decent looking model. I've not liked the GW Lightning Claw for some time and it looks kinda goofy when I try and model a model with both specialist weapons.

[Giga]

A captain with relic blade, storm shield, and artificer armor can reliably tie down and eventually wipe out most usual MEQ (or worse) squads in the game. Stuff like chaos marines, noise marines, tacticals, sternguard, assault marines, guardsmen, fire warriors, etc. are all perfectly solo-able. In fact, we've actually gotten better at it now because challenge mechanics and precision strikes allow you to neutralize power fists or take out key models. 

 

The way I do it is, once I drive my land raider with hammernators & captain into charge range, hammernators disembark and assault something, and captain disembarks and assaults something else. Depending on what I want to assault, I may or may not soften up the target first. For example, I'd take care to soften up a gray hunters or veterans squad so that there's not more than 6-8 of them when captain assaults. 

 

This becomes even easier if you're running a non-crap HQ, such as Vulkan or Lysander, as then Vulkan's heavy flamer or Lysander's eternal warrior and W4 make soloing squads even easier. 

 

EDIT: You misunderstood me or I didn't explain correctly. I don't go around tanking S8 hits on my captain. But these situations will and do happen occasionally. You fail your charge roll and end up in the open, your captain kills too many chaos marines and manages to sweep them on first turn of assault, leaving him in the open during enemy's shooting phase, etc. 

[Axagoras]

Ive been running lysander for a while now and I am about to retire him for a bit, the inconsistency is too much for 200 points. Having him at 2 wounds left dieing in a chalenge with 1 warp talon is pathetic. But on the flip side Ive had him lose 3 wounds slogging across the board only to on his own kill the siege of varaks chaos lord (forget his name), and 1 hit KO a khornate lord on a juggernaut.

[Captain Idaho]

EDIT: You misunderstood me or I didn't explain correctly. I don't go around tanking S8 hits on my captain. But these situations will and do happen occasionally. You fail your charge roll and end up in the open, your captain kills too many chaos marines and manages to sweep them on first turn of assault, leaving him in the open during enemy's shooting phase, etc. 

 

Sure, sure. But a Duelist can do much of the same thing if he wants to go on his own. It's a bit riskier to go it alone without a Storm Shield, but there is still an Iron Halo available.

 

Besides that, the small amount of attacks from a generic character (I'm not discussing special characters here, particularly as they can't have dual weapons) on a solo run is rather dangerous even with a Storm Shield.

 

Don't get me wrong, I still have my Storm Shield character tanking hits left right and centre, but I feel there should be a change since he can still take some hits thanks to his 2+ armour save and can do some decent damage with his 2 weapons.

 

Anyways, any other discussing to be had regarding Duelists?

[maturin]

Axe/sword or Axe/mace would be my choice. Sword because of the number of 3+ saves you'll face, and mace because once you bop them with the mace, they'll be going at the same initiative as the axe next turn.

If the goal of your Duelist is to fight in duels (instead of chopping up fodder), it's worth thinking about the weapons he's likely to face. It seems that power fists on lesser characters have become much less common in 6th, so that 2+/4++ save is probably going to be enough in most cases. But you're still going to face some weapons which will ID you - unless you decline the challenge (which would be super-unfluffy!).

So what do we do? Either take a SS, which eliminates the flexibility of the dual-weapon arrangement, take your chances with 2+/4++, or don't fight the duel and let Joe Sergeant suck up the enemy powerfist. I'm not really happy with any of those choices, in the context of this discussion. Which is why I haven't fielded a dual PW captain much...yet. There's no denying that it makes for a cool model, though.

Now there's one other possibility, which I hesitate to bring up since it involves Forgeworld and thus might be slightly OT. But there is a dedicated, fluffy, duellist captain available to Space Marines: Pellas Mir'san of the Salamanders (found in IA10). He's got a master-crafted power sword, another unspecified power weapon, 2+/4++ save, and a special rule called Master Duellist. It allows you to have 1 extra attack, or your opponent to have one less.

This is most useful when facing a powerfist equipped opponent - dropping the number of attacks you face from 2 to 1, or 3 to 2, will decrease the number of 4++ saves you need to take, and is better than having a 3++ save, I think. He's not too expensive considering the other small benefits he gives, though YMMV. I'm keen to try him out and duel some enemies.

Overall I do think the Duelist concept is incredibly fun and fluffy in 6th, and I'd like to see more of it on the tabletop.

(OT: Speaking of duellists, does this thread make anyone else want to give their captain a car/buggy and sign them up for the AADA? ;)

[Captain Idaho]

Am off to bed right now so can't make a proper reply. However I think I should clarify I was referring to a Duelist in the classic stereotype sense in popular fiction; a fighter with 2 hand weapons. Seemed to fit better than Nordic Berserker! ;)

 

I think it's generally better for such a character to be able to fight rank and file but I'm sure having the flexibility to fight a challenge is important to many players, myself included.

[maturin]

Ah, I see. I think the terminology is beginning to trip me up a bit. The concept of a dualist duelist whose primary purpose isn't to fight duels....could be confusing.

I'd be a little careful about assuming that's a common interpretation of a duelist. First thing that generally springs into my mind is....pistols at dawn. Not bolt pistols, either.

[Captain Idaho]

Ha yes. Maybe a lovely play on words like Dualists might clarify things?

[Giga]

Eh, didn't realize you were talking of a two-weapons char. I kinda always imagined duelists as either the guys with old pistols, or with rapiers, Indigo Montoya style. :S

 

Well, in that case I think there's no discussion to be had here. Power fist + lightning claw + artificer armor is the way to go. 

[Captain Idaho]

How do you model a good looking version of such a character? I know it's a great combat option on the table, but I just can't find a way to make it look good! (I'm average at modelling at best).

 

Still, against Orks, a power maul is still pretty good compared to a lightning claw.

 

And 10pts cheaper of course to have a dualist rather than a specialist. Could make a difference. Maybe.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I'm a fan of lightning claw and powerfist.

 

An idea I had was to have a massive sword to count as the lightning claw (think War from Darksiders), though a little smaller so that people don't instantly think of a relic blade instead.

 

Incidentally, 'duelist' made me think rapiers and flintlocks too.

[Giga]

I dunno. I think a dude with a power fist and a lightning claw looks pretty awesome as it is. 

[Captain Idaho]

I think they look a little clumsy, s'all.

 

I'll change the title to Dualists because I'm enjoying that pun!

 

I might go power axe and maul with my next Captain. He'll smash apart most opponents and only struggle slightly against power armoured foes when striking last. It saves 10pts too.

 

And if I can make a model I like I'll go with the specialist options on a model.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I know it doesn't really fit the two-weapon-fighter concept being discussed, but I use a MOTF as my Warlord almost exclusively these days, and in addition to the pair of power fist attacks from his servoharness, he can also carry a hammer or the power weapon of your choice.  So in a way, he's a "dualist" too, because he fights with two weapons in close combat.  Obviously, he's only WS4, A2, W2 compared to a Captain's WS6, A3, W3, but combined with a pistol, he's A3 and A4 on the charge, PLUS the two extra fist attacks from the harness for a total of six attacks on the charge -- more than a Captain can get no matter what weapons you give him.  He's got no I-save, true, but at least he comes with arty armor.

 

I splurge on mine, with a plasma pistol, power sword, and digital weapons.  On a charge, that's either two BS5 plasma shots or one BS5 plasma shot and a flamer (depending on whether I'm charging Marines or something less sturdy) followed by four S4 AP3 and two S8 AP2 attacks.  Overall, it's a lot of punch packed into a pretty small package, and he's often underestimated on the battlefield.

[Jolemai]

From what I am aware, people still run Chaplains with Power Fists and Death Cult Assassins with the sword and axe combo so there is nothing new there.

 

Would duel pistols be worth mentioning here, or would that be a discussion for another thread?

[Captain Idaho]

A Master of the Forge would be a Dualist actually. Much more versatile but less focussed. Good catch, I'll bear this in mind when I get round to doing some writing.

From what I am aware, people still run Chaplains with Power Fists and Death Cult Assassins with the sword and axe combo so there is nothing new there.

Would duel pistols be worth mentioning here, or would that be a discussion for another thread?

I think dueling pistols probably need a separate mention to be honest.

Chaplains with power fists have been used before admittedly, but I don't think they are that popular really, or effective compared to a Captain IMHO.

Death Cultists - yes they really benefit from being Dualists. They do have multiple models with attacks though. Perhaps Vanguard can do the same? I think it's something for thade to think about!

****

Righty oh, modelling wise, I'm going to build a maul/axe wielder. I seriously think this is a very powerful choice for a Captain designed to tear through infantry, since it wounds well against all it's targets and ignores all saves. Hordes get pulped by the maul, whilst Marines go down to the axe.

Does anyone think Marines striking at initiative are risky though? I'm used to reducing numbers before they strike, but I guess times change. At least 2+ saves can be tanked on the Captain now before the rest of the squad takes the hits.

 

I mean, what kind of threats are there from power armoured foes in assaults? Black Templars Crusaders have good numbers but aren't that scary in assaults to 2+ save models, whilst Berzerkers and Vanguard generally are smaller squads than Crusaders and they too shouldn't break a 2+ save unit.

[DasPanzerIstUber]

Well the BT codex still lets you make some nasty characters, most involving Storm Shields. Techmarine/Harness/Power Weapon/Storm Shield is particularly brutal if you can find the points.

 

But if you want two weapons then Chaplains are the best. GW haven't ruined all of our fun yet so they still have great stats and many weapon options. I personally enjoy my Master of Sanctity with Terminator Armour (+1 attack included), Crozius Arcanum and Chainfist.

 

My other dualist is a jump pack chaplain with power axe and meltabombs, possibly artificer armour. Very versatile and mobile which lets him pick his battles. He is hard to pick out as well when jumping solo between terrain pieces.

 

And of course for those paranoid about instant-death, there is the classic Adamantine Mantle.

 

In regards to weapons, I agree about mauls. Only slightly worse against power armour but incredible vs anything else basically.

AP2 is necessary but axes are the minimum. You might as well pay a little extra and get S8. Only sacrificing 1 attack for the ability to hurt anything in the game, not to mention instant killing most opponents.

[Jolemai]

 

A Master of the Forge would be a Dualist actually. Much more versatile but less focussed. Good catch, I'll bear this in mind when I get round to doing some writing.

 

From what I am aware, people still run Chaplains with Power Fists and Death Cult Assassins with the sword and axe combo so there is nothing new there.

 

Would duel pistols be worth mentioning here, or would that be a discussion for another thread?

 

I think dueling pistols probably need a separate mention to be honest.

 

Chaplains with power fists have been used before admittedly, but I don't think they are that popular really, or effective compared to a Captain IMHO.

 

Death Cultists - yes they really benefit from being Dualists. They do have multiple models with attacks though. Perhaps Vanguard can do the same? I think it's something for thade to think about!

 

As a Blood Angel player, I will have to disagree. For us the Captain gather's dust a lot of the time.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah that's the unfortunate side effect of having Chaplains as good minus a pip of WS and Librarians with S10 or Divination. Silly really.

 

The rest of us can be happy with our Captains. I think, not sure about DA. Oh and GK don't count because they can't really become Dualists as far as I remember!

 

...so jusy Space Marines then!

[minigun762]

For Traitors, I'd rank the claw & fist combo up there with the various demon weapon options. Being forced to challenge means either taking an all comers weapon like the blind axe or taking a pair of weapons that handle all likely situations.

 

If you didn't like the two hand type weapons, I'd go with axe and maul if I had a 2+ save to resist other ap3 weapons, otherwise axe and sword.

[Syphid]

I still have the old Asmodai model with Power Maul and Power Sword. Probably not as good as Maul/Axe, but Interrogator Chaplains strike at WS5 I5 and Reroll to-hit in the first round (as well as 1's to hit and wound from then on if fighting C:SM) which could get the opponent's initiative down to 1 for the next round. Really I'm just trying to figure out if there's something useful I can get out of him or if I have to re-equip him.

[Captain Idaho]

Well I'd have a bit of feedback for you guys after my 2 practice games, but luck conspired against me. Failed charges 4" away, poor unit placement and just a bad old day of 40K. Literally no combats with my Honour Guard and Master!

 

Made me sick frankly, but I'll see if I can play again some time soon.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Sounds like they feared the concept so much they had to keep away...