Using Dualists

[Captain Idaho]

Ha, maybe!

 

It tore the heart out of 40K for me that night. I think I'm recovering, but after it happened and then the opponent's mate came over bad mouthing Ultramarines for no reason, then the opponent desparately tried to claw a victory by rolling dice after the game had finished and stating they were for things he hadn't done last turn, (he rolled a 6" for consolidation after the game, claiming it allowed him to contest an objective of mine - he was miles away and still in base contact with a Drop Pod anyway so couldn't make the move) I seriously felt like quitting!

 

I did win still, 10-9, but it was a terrible game to play from turn 3 onwards.

 

I'm just a little rusty and feeling better about 40K now.

 

Going to have another crack with the set up. The Honour Guard were about to gut his entire army so I think it was just bad luck.

[Muctar]

We've all had moments like that Idaho. I've failed more 3"-4" charges than I can remember... mostly because I've blocked off that part of my brain.

 

On topic: I've been tossing around the idea of using Pellas Mir'san (FW Captain w/ WS7, 2x PW, one of which is master crafted). So this topic has been great so far. I'm in the camp of having an axe and sword, mostly because of my meta but also because I love the look of my conversion with a glaive encarmine and short axe, which acts like a main-gauche.

[Ming]

Creating a dualist?  Basically a character from the codex that just calls out others in challenges?  A dualist takes on individual, not units, so challenges are the focus. 

 

Baic codex:

 

Captain, artsy armor, and then you just have to be able to defeat AP3 as a minimum standard at Initiative.  WS6 I5. S4.   dual claws for shred (reroll failed wounds).  Digital weaps for a reroll (one failed to hit). 

 

For something different -

 

Librarian Epistolary, terminator armor, shield, force sword, might, and quickening.  WS5 I4. S6, I10 from the powers.  Fleet too.  Change to Force axe only if the opponent has terminator or 2+ armor.  More expensive than the Captain, but better armor, and faster on the charge.  Chance to force-kill a character. 

[DasPanzerIstUber]

Pretty sure the topic is about dual-ing (i.e 2 weapons) not dueling (pistols at dawn). A play on words and all that.

 

But they should be viable in challenges too, a bit more risky without the safety of a Storm Shield though.

[Captain Idaho]

I should perhaps have amended the top post to reflect the subsequent change in title from Duelist to Dualists, but yes, it's not just about Challenges though we should always be prepared for that.

 

It certainly is riskier in a challenge though, since you'll have to strike last with your power axe or use your alternative weapon. This is probably where having a maul will be a disadvantage - with all those power armoured sergeants out there it could be a problem.

 

Still, that's why you should always have a patsy around!

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Creating a dualist?  Basically a character from the codex that just calls out others in challenges?  A dualist takes on individual, not units, so challenges are the focus. 

 

Baic codex:

 

 Digital weaps for a reroll (one failed to hit). 

 

...except that digital weapons only grant a re-roll to wound, not to hit.  So taking those with a lightning claw is a waste of points.

[Captain Idaho]

Repeated from another thread:

Sooooo.

I've done a bit of a U-turn!

• I was unable to get hold of a suitable maul, with the one I have being Terminator size so it just didn't work. Oh well.

• I must also admit I wanted to retain AP3 at initiative too, just in case, so I didn't mind putting a sword into his left hand.

I'm not going to lie though, I am particularly worried about the capacity to carve through models at initiative, simply because he is striking at a meagre S4. Oh well, if I'm fighting Orks, I guess I can just hope I roll well and rely on the power lances!

So in short - power sword and axe on the Master.

[*Furyou Miko]

The Chaos book is horrible for trying to make these kinds of characters, but my 'duellist' character also turned out to be a dual-wielder (I abhor that pun and thought better of you, Idaho :p)

 

I run two HQs - Ahriman, and a Warpsmith. Ahriman's turned out to be surprisingly good in close combat, with WS5, S6 and 5 attacks, but the Warpsmith is rather nice too.

 

The thing about the Warpsmith is that it comes with a Power Axe. It cannot, in fact, exchange this Power Axe for anything. It also comes with a bolt pistol that may only be swapped for a ranged weapon or chaos artefact.

 

So I gave her the much-maligned murder sword. It's a power sword most of the time, but since she has 4 attacks base, 5 for two close combat weapons, she usually does pretty well with it. It really helps that I can target the enemy's nastiest combat character to gain the benefits of the Murder Sword's powers on a humble, overcosted Warpsmith too - Aura of Dark Glory and Mark of Tzeentch give her a respectable 4++ invulnerable... *sigh* if only I could give her a Storm Shield like your loyalists. Or even just a Sigil of Corruption for 3++ with the Mark.

 

Still, I'd like to see how a duel between her and Idaho's duellist turned out. :D

[Captain Idaho]

I'm full of plenty of awful puns if you want a different one, don't worry about that!

 

As for dueling I don't like the sound of that one - too even at best for me! I prefer my challenges to not be a challenge and on my terms, so I guess you win by default!

 

I like the interesting way you've built a character for Chaos Marines actually. Thinking outside the box and you've ended up with something quite effective. Warpsmiths like Masters of the Forge I take it and have a 2+?

 

I suppose a similar thing could be done with a Dark Apostle?

 

That brings us onto other Codex books I guess. Is a Cannoness still not worth taking?

[*Furyou Miko]

Sadly, no, the Warpsmith does not have Fleshmetal (Chaos equivalent to artificer armour)

 

Canoness is still useless in anything but an IG power blob or maybe an Ogryn squad. ^^; Her only viable builds are Rosarius + Eviscerator + Inferno Pistol (at which point you may as well take Celestine, it's the same points!) or Rosarius + Power Sword/Maul + Inferno Pistol, at which point she's either striking at WS5, preferred enemy S6 AP1 3 attacks I1, WS5 preferred enemy S3 AP3 4 attacks I5, or WS5 preferred enemy S5 AP4 4 attacks I5.

 

That's only if she gets to use her Act of Faith, of course, which she can never pass on better than a 4+, and even then only if you have faith points to spare. I guess you could run her swith an axe and mace, but that just gives her a choice of cack or cacker.

 

If she had something halfway worthwhile to boost with her Act of Faith (Battle Conclave just isn't worth it), she might be worth taking, but...

 

I guess you could run her with just an Inferno Pistol as a tank hunter?

[Disruptor_fe404]

I was unable to get hold of a suitable maul, with the one I have being Terminator size so it just didn't work. Oh well.

 

Can't be that difficult a conversion, surely?

 

I'm a fan of the axe-spear combo, myself.

[Captain Idaho]

Maybe not for some, but I'm not Techmarine. I mostly just hurt people. (ref)

 

I thought about a spear/axe combination actually. If you can get a charge you will be doing quite substantial damage at initiative and in later turns bring out the axe and maintain the strength.

 

I do have a whole bunch of Spears in my Honour Guard already mind, so tactically I went with the sword (my 2nd choice). At initiative I can go through power armour, which is nice though unreliable (silly S4!).

[Disruptor_fe404]

Yeah, I was slightly biased toward the axe-spear combo being unique (aesthetically) among my guys (since I mostly rock swords), while also being a versatile bundle of rules.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, shame I'm so rubbish at modelling!

[*Furyou Miko]

Weapon swaps are easy, you'll never know till you try. :p

 

I mostly ended up using old dwarf mallets for my power mauls. ^^;

[WarriorFish]

Weapon swapping is easy as long as you've got a good tool to cut with. Either cutting around the hand or the weapon head lets you do a simple swap depending on the weapon type. Once you get the hang of that it's a small step to start making fancier conversions :)

 

Regarding dual weaponry an axe is almost mandatory but I really like the maul for bopping heads with the extra strength at initiative. I think they're a really good combination as the odds of wounding are increased and you don't have to worry as much about getting your IC swamped by grunts.

[Captain Idaho]

I can do hand swaps. That's about it.

 

Yeah it seems like the Axe is kinda mandatory. I also agree the maul is great for smashing horde units and you can go to the axe to carve through power armour or better.

[Lysere]

While most of my HQs are designed for a smaller selection of targets I have one that is truly a "Dualist" and that is my BT terminator Chaplain.

 

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/256/4/c/master_of_sanctity_erus_with_termies_by_firestorm_delta-d5ekjea.jpg

 

He originally had a storm bolter, (from my days of C:SM) but upgraded to an Axe after losing a duel with a terminator sergeant. Since the Terminator Squad has a mix of hammer and claws he just adds an Axe (Halberd Technically) to his Crozius. 6-7 attacks on the charge with re-roll to hit can be fun with either weapon.

[Azash]

Following the discussion so far I have a bit of a question for the folk using Captain/Master as a duelist.

 

If your using a PF/LC combination on the same model why use a power armored model? Why not go terminator the same weapons combination costs 5 pts more on a terminator based model and it comes with the optional ability of deep striking. Having that as an option seems to be worth an extra 5 pts to me.

 

Plus for coolness factor I think a PF/LC combo on a terminator is going to look a whole lot cooler than on a power armor model.

 

Also if I was going to do something along those lines I would run a Captain/Master with PF/LC in termie armor with an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher. Yeah it's an extra 15 pts but you have just given him a decent shooting weapon St 6 AP 4 and a decent crowd control weapon Str 3 AP 6 blast. He can solo with just about anything in the game and he can solo entire units and even blob units.

[Captain Idaho]

Well the problem with that is we can get Artificer Armour that allows us to get inside Rhinos (if accompanying Command squads or Sternguard), take up 1 less slot in a transport and crucially still make Sweeping Advances. This also works well with other units who are able to perform Sweeping Advances.

 

Of course, there is a problem that could arise in the next Codex that will make your point all conquering - will we still have access to Artificer Armour in the new Codex? Will we have to get our 2+ saves from Terminater armour?

 

If so then it's going to be pretty standard practice to get a suit of Terminater armour for combat characters.

[Azash]

Yes but assaulting out of Rhinos or Razorbacks in 6th is next to worthless though and the brittle nature of armor in 6th especially armor 11 and below is being in power armor all that much of an advantage?

 

I mean back in 5th ard boyz i ran a Terminator squad accompanied by vulkan and cassius in a redeemer as a deathstar. But that's in a 2500 point list and ard boyz is as dead as 5th. The only reason to really preference power armor over terminator armor is you can fit an additional body in that land raider with the 10 man or 5 man squad (Power armor or Terminator armor) because of the 12 man transport capacity.

 

Beyond the point of sweeping advances there really seems to be no reason to put a dedicated assault/duelist character in power armor. Putting one in the worst possible assault platform in the codex; a rhino chasis seems like a bad idea. Rhino's are bait for first blood especially with prevalence of ADL's, quad guns, icarus guns, the resurgance of devastator/havoc squads, and wreck by glance. Put a choice target in one and your practically telling your opponent where to go first.

[Captain Idaho]

I use a Land Raider myself but some people might take a big unit of Sternguard and put a Captain in with them as back up; they disembark, shoot decisively and then either get charged or charge the next turn etc.

 

Not something I'd do granted, but it's an option I've seen.

 

Besides that, the benefits of grenades and sweeping advances far outweighs the benefits of deep striking. Why bother having an initiative striking weapon if you don't have grenades?

[Captain Idaho]

Just a quick update guys; I've created an axe and maul character. I considered the power sword but frankly the average 2 wounds even with a Chapter Banner just won't really make striking at initiative worthwhile.

 

I still do consider the Lightning claw and fist combo to be nasty but 1) I'm still in the process of procuring parts to make a model work and 2) I don't know if the average 1 extra kill over a power sword with 6 attacks is worth 10pts. I suppose the power fist benefits are the key reasons to pay that.

 

But 1) is still a major factor!

[Jaigo]

How about Calgar?

 

I am thinking to dust him off. 2 fists. Build in guns and he can suprise you with his power sword. Makes him dangerous and versitile.

And his special rules are just awsome.

He is of course an investment. But one I think might pull his weight in this edition.

[Giga]

Too expensive for a 3+/4++ save, and even more expensive if you want to make him unable to sweep after winning combat. If you're just fooling around, it's fun to put him in a massive terminator or honor guard unit and give your opponents fits. :]