Flyers and how we deal with them.

[Brother Landrain]

Well, I am going to a big tournament that does not allow FW rules...

 

At the moment, I am debating between:

 

Devastator Squad with 4 Las Cannons

Devastator Squad with 4 Flakk-ML's

 

A Divination Librarian will be with the squad no matter what the final outcome is. (rerolling all misses is just too handy for devastators)

Also the squad will be manning most likely an Icarus Lascannon, (Sgt Signum used on the Lascannon shooter for BS 5)

 

The strength 9 vs strength 7 is a reall issue I am concerned with.

I know that with the Libby, I will likely get (3.56) hits each round with the Flakk-ILC team, but only  do (1.81) glance/pen hits on AV 12.

With the Lascannon team fewer hits (2.21) hits but do (1.45) glance/pen on AV 12.

The Lascannons pen a lot more reliably, and with AP2, get +1 on damage chart.

At AV 11, the flakk get a little better chance to pen, and still do a little more hull/pens than the las cannons, but the percentage of penns by las-cannons is much higher.

 

Against non-flyers the Lascannon team will be more dangerous to armor, but not as flexible as 4 frag missles vs hordes.

 

The Missiles also are more expensive by 20 points than the Lascannons... which is 1/3 the cost of the Libby.

 

I am tending towards the Lasscannons, others opinions?

[Bryan Blaire]

If you did the math right, Brother Landrain, it looks like you actually have a higher chance to glance/pen with the Flakk team, even if the flat pen rate is lower. The rate to hit is a time and a half higher, so you it almost looks like you could collapse a flyer in two turns (admittedly not immediately), but the pen hits with the lascannon don't take into account the chances to one-hit kill the flyer, which is about the only way the las cannons seem better than the Flakk (aside from the extra 20 points).

 

Do you have some time to run a few scenarios to see which one actually works better in game rather than just Mathhammer? As you said, the missile launchers over all may be more flexible. If they can manage to glance a flyer to death in two turns, it might be worth looking at closer...

 

Since they don't allow FW, are they allowing fortifications? A quad-gun Aegis line is about 2/3rds the cost of a similarly equipped Mortis Dread (100 pts vs 135ish, IIRC) (Edit: I was wrong, the Aegis is 4/5ths the cost of a dual TLAC Mortis, 100 pts vs 125 pts) and with a combat squad from your Devastator unit (whichever you choose), you would actually have a unit probably twice or better the durability and usefulness of the Mortis from FW and since you are basically going to want to always be stationary with that unit any way, the mobility between the Mortis and the Aegis + quad gun and then the combat squaded Dev unit isn't really losing anything, and you might be even more durable than the FW unit is with the cover and up to 5 ablative wounds without losing effectiveness - and you have all the rules you would get from FW Dreadnought without using any Forgeworld rules and without stepping outside your Codex... Except to the main rule book.

[Brother Landrain]

I am thinking about running a pure Greenwing Army.

Fortifications are allowed... I am looking at using either a Bastion or a Fortress... along with the SoD inside to maximise the AOE..

If I go the Fortress route, will probably have 2 Tact, 2 Dev and the Command Squad as a static Firebase to hold my Center side of the table.

 

I just really like the lascannon ability to one-shot (33%) on a pen, as well as its ability to pen AV 13/AV14 much better than Krak Missiles.

[Onisuzume]

Why aren't peeps using the Nephilm? It says in the Codex that it is a fantastic bit of kit

It is, however its expensive and not an anti-flyer Trolled me thinks

It is effectively an A-10 thunderbolt in speeeeshhhhhhh!!!!!

A-10?

The TLLC version?

Slap it in a dogfight and it has a fair chance to bring down almosy anything, if you pass the Toughness test.

Still, a Mortis is probably the best PVO we got.

I've gone for a 'normal' Mortis dredd with TL Lascannons.

With its long range, if no flyers are around its great for anti-tank.

Well, the TLAC is good against Rhinos, Razorbacks, Chimæras, etc.

Anything that has a halfway decent chance of blowing a Heldrake out of the sky has to be worth considering

Which a TLLC Nephilim could, with a bit of luck (and dogfighting).

I'm loving all of this activity on here. I didn't expect to get such a response. I like the mortis dreadnought but I'm having difficulty justifying using Forgeworld rules.

Gee, kinda makes me wonder how all those Eldar players can justify using an Avatar which, you know, is only awoken in the most dire circumstances, and each Craftworld has only one. (To paraphrase something from Imperial Armour Volume 2)

The approval means nothing. An oponent is entitled to refuse FW units in a match, wereas if you deploy a standard codex army there is no actual reason to do so. FW units interfere too much with codex internal balance (what there is in some occasions anyway).

Even when official word from FW says that your opponent has no reason to refuse?

If not, I'll spell them out what the spirit of the game is (rulebook page 8).

Well, I am going to a big tournament that does not allow FW rules...

Well, do they allow the dogfighting rules from Crusade of Fire?

If so, why not Zoidberg TLLC Nephilim?

[Brother Immolator]

The spirit of the game is: Play fair and square with your codex,not the models of a subdivision that were not included but had a stamp of aproval later and not even they allowed in their own tournaments. Must we go over this for...say the ten thousandth time?

[Interrogator Stobz]

The spirit of the game is: Play fair and square within a permissable ruleset. Must we go over this for...say the ten thousandth time?

Fixed that for you Brother ;)

 

"...Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows..." P8 BrB

 

Everybody has a different take on what should or should not be included; None of them are wrong for holding their opinion :P

 

s

[Brother Immolator]

The spirit of the game is: Play fair and square within a permissable ruleset. Must we go over this for...say the ten thousandth time?

Fixed that for you Brother

"...Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows..." P8 BrB

Everybody has a different take on what should or should not be included; None of them are wrong for holding their opinion

s

Come on now Stobz you are sane and wise enough to know why those lines are in there.

And if we want to play with words heres my interpretation then: Permissable by both players because you know the golden rule according to the rulebook is to have fun and such things are ruinning the fun, so we have come full circle, what a surpise!!!

BTW why is everyone ignoring the fact that they dont allow them on their own sanctioned turnaments?

EDIT:

Well, I am going to a big tournament that does not allow FW rules...

It appears that this is not my opinion...

So brother Lanrain, pack yourself either a devsquad, or a fortification. I played recently against a stormraven heavy list and I was packing three launchers in my 2 tac and one scout squad. Took em all out one though managed to launch those damn bloodstrikes.

The advantage of the launchers is that they are not useless after a couple of turns.

Against FMC your best friend to force grounding test will be the dakka pole. It will force so many rolls that he is bound to loose some.

[Interrogator Stobz]

Come on now Stobz you are sane and wise enough to know why those lines are in there.

And if we want to play with words heres my interpretation then: Permissable by both players because you know the golden rule according to the rulebook is to have fun and such things are ruinning the fun, so we have come full circle, what a surpise!!!

BTW why is everyone ignoring the fact that they dont allow them on their own sanctioned turnaments?

Hey Bro; I must disagree, in my opinion not having FW allowed is "ruining" the fun (only a little ) for me and many peeps I know.

I also must disagree with the unbalancing argument, the more units allowed the more balance the games get because each player has more choice, its a stats thing, normal curve etc...

We ignore the fact that they don't allow them at their own events because they are rubbish at making good decisions except making money (Not allowing them may be something as simple as FW can not yet manufacture sufficiently to supply the demand that WILL come once GW put a real rubber stamp on it) $$$$$ drives everything they do!!!

S

[Bryan Blaire]

So, did we ever actually come to a conclusive list of how the Dark Angels Codex can deal with enemy flyers?

 

This was what I put together:

 

Codex means to deal with flyers:

*Flakk missiles (in whatever squad) - probably our best option as it is the only thing automatically with Skyfire, but will likely have problems with Armor 12 - shooting better when augmented by a Librarian with Prescience

*Devastator squad with lascannons augmented by a Librarian with Prescience - pretty good option

*Ravenwing Black Knights - pretty good option

*Nephilim Jetfighter with TLLC - poor option

*Dreadnought with 2x TLAC - poor option

Just about everything else is a worse option

 

Non-Codex means to deal with flyers:

*Mortis Dreadnought with 2x TLLC (best, but most expensive), 2x Missile Launcher (Krak missiles) or 2x TLAC (this option will probably have issues with Armor 12 also) - the 2x TLAC version is very similar to a quad gun Aegis fortification, harder to deal with over all because the gun emplacement can be taken out easier, more expensive than a quad gun Aegis fortification; 5 points more expensive than a DA Dreadnought and located in the same slot as a regular Dread, rather than a free slot like a Fortification; only gains Skyfire and Interceptor rules when not moving, acting exactly like a Fortification at that point; listed specifically by FW for a C:DA army only unlike a Fortification, which is a Non-Codex option for all armies

*Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with 2x TLLC, 2 Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons or 2x TLAC w/ or w/out Cyclone Missile Launcher - Cyclone makes it more powerful, TLLC version very similar but half the range of the Fortress of Redemption TL-Icarus Lascannon, however, the Contemptor Mortis is also easier to destroy than the Fortress overall and takes up a Heavy Support slot, instead of a free slot like a Fortification; only gains apSkyfire and Interceptor rules when not moving, acting exactly like a Fortification at that point; is available for C:SM, C:DA and C:BT unlike a Fortification, which is a Non-Codex option for all armies

*Hyperios launchers - on a Whirlwind, LR or a static emplacement

*Thunderhawk?

*Other FW items (I don't own all the books that have possible DA equipment in them)

*Fortifications - lets face it, Fortifications are a Non-Codex way of dealing with flyers, even the Big Green Book (pg 109) says this: "Unlike units, fortifications are not found in Codexes."

*Allies - any allies not presented in the Codex you are using are obviously Non-Codex ways of dealing with flyers and Allies are not balanced in any fashion to use with any army.

*Using the Dogfighting rules from the Crusade of Fire (or presumably the upcoming flyer supplement) allows the Nephilim w/ TLLC to become a better anti-flyer option

 

One last thing, before people freak out about my challenging the Big Green Book on the validity of Fortifications and Allies. The Big Green Book itself says on page 91 (yes, it's talking specifically about Terrain and its uses, however, it really applies to the entire game system): "There's no right or wrong in such decisions provided you both agree. Remember: there's no such thing as a 'standard' Warhammer 40K game, because there's no such thing as a 'standard' Warhammer 40K gamer."

 

None of us can argue the validity or "official-ness" of Forgeworld units. FW says they are considered official. It's a statement, not a request to consider it so. We all can argue whether we each should feel comfortable playing with them and against them, that's a personal feeling though, and can't be right or wrong. There can be no forward progress in that argument.

 

What a TO decides to allow in a tournament does nothing to change the statement about the official nature of FW units. Even GW TOs are a single part of a much larger company and do not likely have the authority in their positions to make or change company policy or statements about the official nature of FW units.

 

Now, it is perfectly valid to say "I only want to discuss Codex and Big Green Book options for dealing with flyers as that's all I can/will use or play against" but that doesn't mean that the rest of people discussing FW units in regard to dealing with flyers are some incorrect for doing so. For those of us that want to, they are also perfectly valid means of dealing with flyers.

[Polythemus]

Bryan can you prescience tl weapons? i thought one of the basic rules was only one reroll. Plastalons are twin linked.

 

Also nephillim while using dogfight rules is pretty decent. It has an excellent chance for a destroyed result in only one turn.

[Bryan Blaire]

Eh, you're right, I'll adjust that on the list, forgot the Librarian on the missile launchers though. I'd agree about the Nephilim, but the dogfighting rules aren't Codex. I can add that to my list as a Non-Codex option though. :)

[Spaced Hulk]

To the OP: Try to include a variety of anti-aircraft measures throughout your army. Relying on one (for example) devastator squad with quad flakk missiles is fine until that unit gets taken out early. Like most things in 40K, multiple threats are the key. I'll also give another vote for Black Knights, they really are the swiss army knife of the DA Codex. Twin linked plasma talons and the speed to threaten a flyers rear armour is a perfectly viable tactic.

 

If you want to include flyers and find our own really don't appeal, consider using an Allied Storm Raven/Talon and painting it in DA colours (using it as counts as). With Codex Space Marines getting access to the Raven now, it's not that unreasonable to assume that the First Legion would have acquired a few at some point as well.

 

Slightly Off Topic: Anyone else think that normal Dreadnoughts should have the Skyfire special rule like their Forge World cousins? Even if they didn't get the Intercepter rule, Skyfire alone would be a major benefit, and encourage the use of a unit that seems increasingly rare these days.

[Onisuzume]

Slightly Off Topic: Anyone else think that normal Dreadnoughts should have the Skyfire special rule like their Forge World cousins? Even if they didn't get the Intercepter rule, Skyfire alone would be a major benefit, and encourage the use of a unit that seems increasingly rare these days.

Only if they're a Mortis-pattern, which are fluffed to have removed CC-software and such for additional firing solution calculating software/hardware and such.

The spirit of the game is: Play fair and square with your codex,not the models of a subdivision that were not included but had a stamp of aproval later and not even they allowed in their own tournaments. Must we go over this for...say the ten thousandth time?

Rulebook claims otherwise: ABOVE ALL, it's important to remember that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your goal should always be to enjoy the journey. Your job isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows.

[Spaced Hulk]

 

Slightly Off Topic: Anyone else think that normal Dreadnoughts should have the Skyfire special rule like their Forge World cousins? Even if they didn't get the Intercepter rule, Skyfire alone would be a major benefit, and encourage the use of a unit that seems increasingly rare these days.

Only if they're a Mortis-pattern, which are fluffed to have removed CC-software and such for additional firing solution calculating software/hardware and such.

Perhaps this could apply to any Dreadnought without close combat weapons. Would give more of a reason to use the missile launcher upgrade at least.

[Izzuan]

Maybe a mortis upgrade option...sort of like the fuioso librarian...buy the mortis, and replace your dreadnought close combat...excuse me, power fist, with either the missile launcher or auto cannon (at no additional cost)

[Brother Immolator]

If the game is so liberal in its interpretation though, I wonder why topics such as vulcan mega bolters are affected by the devastation standard and how to field 40 command squads came to be,. Or to be more exact why do we need FAQs and discussion to settle them I wonder...after all rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable game. So lets throw our codices and rulebook out the window and homebrew. Its more enjoyable.

 

So, have it your way boys, either way I doubt anyone is willing to accept or think about anothers opinion so I am glad to let it drop.